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The Bond films as historical/cultural documents ?

DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
edited October 2011 in Bond Movies Posts: 15,718
Saw this thread on another site, thought it was interesting.

With the franchise existing for almost 50 years, and most of the films' plot having for concern their era's preoccupations, can the films be used as historical documents ?

Maybe 'historical documents' is a strong expression... But can the films be used to understand the history of the last 50 years ? The cold war history ? The fashion/dressing style ? The technology ? Men/women relations ?
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Comments

  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited October 2011 Posts: 12,480
    Umm. Yes, interesting. They certainly strongly reflect different eras, don't they? Manners, trends in society (we used to smoke cigarettes frickin' everywhere, for one thing), fashion, popular music (you need earmuffs to listen to the Beatles ?!), travel, science, space race, girls, guys, gadgets.
    I think you could set an alien down and show him/her/it the Bond movies chronologically and they would some sense or feel of our last 50 years. Yep. And then they'd want a martini, an Astin Martin, and a babe.
  • shadowonthesunshadowonthesun Banned
    Posts: 1,894
    can the films be used to understand the history of the last 50 years ? The cold war history ?
    Which parts of the last fifty years involved rockets being launched from hollowed-out volcanoes to steal space capsules out of orbit?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2011 Posts: 15,718
    can the films be used to understand the history of the last 50 years ? The cold war history ?
    Which parts of the last fifty years involved rockets being launched from hollowed-out volcanoes to steal space capsules out of orbit?
    The space race between USA/USSR ? And where did I specifically mentioned the volcano from YOLT ? I meant the franchise as a whole.
  • shadowonthesunshadowonthesun Banned
    Posts: 1,894
    But the franchise is a work of fiction, and while the films might be set in a particular time period, they're not really representative of that time simply because they have that larger-than-life quality.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    But the franchise is a work of fiction, and while the films might be set in a particular time period, they're not really representative of that time simply because they have that larger-than-life quality.
    Soviet invasion of Afghanistan in TLD ? UK being friends with the Mujahadines in TLD, before the whole 'Axe of Terror' post 9/11 ? The space race in MR ? Blaxploitation in LALD ? Energy crisis in TMWTGG ?
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Not as serious historical document, but yes as commentary on our society in flux over the past 50 years.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Not as serious historical document, but yes as commentary on our society in flux over the past 50 years.
    The smoking period of the 1960's to Brosnan's quip 'Filthy habit' in TLD in the late '90's. A woman M, tougher Bond girls in the late 90's and 2000's... A real contrast with the condition of women depicted in the Connery era (butt slap)... Last Bond to slap a woman was Moore in 1974... Now in the last 5 movies, Bond has been slapped twice by women (TND and TWINE).

  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Paying close attention to the slaps, eh? :) Anyway, I do think this is interesting to talk about. I grew up with Bond and have always been a fan. A really fun part of my life.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Wait didn't Pierce's Bond punch out Onotop (however it's spelled)? Maybe not a slap, but still ...
  • shadowonthesunshadowonthesun Banned
    Posts: 1,894
    Sorry, but by your logic, any film made in any year can be held up as an historical document, representative of the time period it was made in. In keeping with that logic, there are hundreds of better candidates for "historical documents" than Bond films.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2011 Posts: 15,718
    @4EverBonded Ah yes, Bond slapped Onatopp in the car... He also shot Elektra at point blank range. But both were villainesses, while Dink and Andrea Anders were just normal woman, not villains...
    Sorry, but by your logic, any film made in any year can be held up as an historical document, representative of the time period it was made in. In keeping with that logic, there are hundreds of better candidates for "historical documents" than Bond films.
    Please do not post in this discussion again. X_X
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I think it is simply interesting because here is one main character that charts the course during those 50 years. I am not taking this seriously, but I think it does a bit at least show how our culture has changed over these years. What makes it interesting to me is that is in one series, not a compilation of many films. I am not up to debate logic over this, it is just for fun, right?
  • barryt007barryt007
    edited October 2011 Posts: 19,339
    Certainly the retro feeling of the old cars,trains,Circus Circus in DAF,the old style KFC in GF etc,will show the times .
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2011 Posts: 15,718
    I think it is simply interesting because here is one main character that charts the course during those 50 years. I am not taking this seriously, but I think it does a bit at least show how our culture has changed over these years. What makes it interesting to me is that is in one series, not a compilation of many films. I am not up to debate logic over this, it is just for fun, right?
    Yep, you understood correctly ! ;-)
    Certainly the retro feeling of the old cars,trains,Circus Circus in DAF,the old style KFC in GF etc,will show the times .
    How about other societal trends, barryt ? Men/women relations ? Fashion trends ? Manners ? Connery's suit are timeless yes... But the clothes Moore was wearing when he met XXX in the nightclub is quite out of fashion now... Really dates the scene in the 1970's...
  • shadowonthesunshadowonthesun Banned
    Posts: 1,894
    Please do not post in this discussion again. X_X
    Why? Because I found a hole in your argument big enough to drive the Disco Volante through?

    Your argument is flawed. If the Bond films can be treated as "historical documents", then any film can. And if any film can be treated as an historical document, then there are hundreds of better candidates for being an historical document. Let's say it's the year 2102, and we're looking back on DIE ANOTHER DAY. What aspects of that film are representative of the year 2002? Giant space lasers? DNA transplants? RoboCop suits? Sure, you can say the relationship between North Korea and the West is shown, but it's hardly an accurate representation - North Korea does not have the budget for superweapons, Pyongyang would not tolerate a colonel who strayed from their stance, and the film took pains to depict the North Korean regime as moderate and relatively level-headed (as they are shown not to advocate aggression).
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2011 Posts: 15,718
    ...
  • shadowonthesunshadowonthesun Banned
    Posts: 1,894
    Not until you give me a decent reason to. I think your argument is flawed. I do not think that James Bond films could ever be "historical documents". They can be cultural documents, especially since they have been a part of cinematic history for nearly fifty years, but whatever representation they have of a particular time period is lost in the elements of the film that are not a part of history - like hollowed-out volcanoes. I might use a Bond film (or excerpts from one) if I was teaching the history of film-making, but I would not use one if I was teaching history. That's all I've been saying all along, and I think my argument is the biggest one that you're going to have to overcome if you want the idea of James Bond films as historical documents to be taken seriously.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2011 Posts: 15,718
    ...
  • shadowonthesunshadowonthesun Banned
    edited October 2011 Posts: 1,894
    Then what else would you call them? And the point still stands - anything the Bond films can contribute is already done by other films, and done better. Take, for example, DIE ANOTHER DAY. How is that representative of life in 2002, compared to ADAPTATION? What does THE WORLD IS NOT ENOUGH have to say about life in 1999 that AMERICAN BEAUTY or BOYS DON'T CRY do not?
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,718
    Are you done ? Can other members express their opinions or are you going to monopolize the thread ?
  • shadowonthesunshadowonthesun Banned
    Posts: 1,894
    They're free to contribute to the discussion whenever they feel like it. I have no objections about anybody posting in this thread, unlike some people:
    Please do not post in this discussion again.
    I came in here looking for an intellectual discussion of the historical and/or cultural value of James Bond films, and I have done nothing but discuss those relative merits. I don't raise these points because I enjoy infuriating you; I raise them because I believe they are valid arguments, and worthy of discussion. So I don't really know why you're so upset about me discussing the ideas you bring up in your posts; if you don't want people discussing them, why did you bring them up in the first place?

    I know we've had our clashes in the past, but I've been nothing but civil here. I haven't gone off-topic (until just now), attacked other members or done anything that might raise the ire of the moderators.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2011 Posts: 15,718
    I had a lenghty debate in history class with my teacher once. So I don't see why Bond films couldn't be used in teaching history . But for the cultural trends/fashions of the last 50 years, I don't see any better material than the Bond franchise.

  • shadowonthesunshadowonthesun Banned
    edited October 2011 Posts: 1,894
    So I don't see why Bond films couldn't be used in teaching history.
    Because they are works of fiction when history concerns itself with fact.
    But for the cultural trends/fashions of the last 50 years, I don't see any better material than the Bond franchise.
    Okay, THUNDERBALL was made in 1965. The nominees for Best Costume Design at the 38th Academy Awards included Stanley Kramer's SHIP OF FOOLS, a film set in the then-current time period. THUNDERBALL, on the other hand, did not receive a nomination. Therefore, we can infer that when it comes to fashion trends in particular, SHIP OF FOOLS is a betetr representation of 1965 than THUNDERBALL.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2011 Posts: 15,718
    Sorry, but the Oscars are NOT a credible argument. Oscars don't mean anything. You can't say 'since it wasn't nominated, it's not a good representation of fashion trends'. That is bordeline ridiculous. So you are saying only 5* films per year are good representation of fashion trends ? (* If the 5 films are set in their current eras.) Shadow you are posting nonsensical arguments. Your argument on Oscar nominations for Best Costume Design is a pure gibberish, sorry. How will you adjust that argument for the 2000's ? No films nominated for that category in the last decade were set in those years.
  • shadowonthesunshadowonthesun Banned
    edited October 2011 Posts: 1,894
    Oh, I'll just take your word for it, will I? I've found your arguments until now to be specious, but I'll accept this one on good faith because you took the time to use capital letters to emphasis a word.

    I took the time to make an argument; if you're going to shoot it down, then the least you can do is explain why you're shooting it down.

    Let's take YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE as an example. In order to complete his assignment, Bond integrates into life with Kissy Suzuki. Although it is never specifically stated, it can be extrapolated that he is living life with the Ama people, as he does in the novel. We'll say he is for the sake of the argument. How can you gurantee that these scenes are even representative of the Ama lifestyle and culture? How do you know that Ian Fleming and/or Roald Dahl did not exercise creative licence when they wrote these scenes? This is precisely why you cannot use a work of fiction as a definitive example of a work of fiction - there is no way of verifying that what is shown is accurate. Especially since we can demonstrate that other scenes within the film are innacurate; SPECTRE volcano is described as extinct, but it later erupts after explosions destroy the crater. This would not be enough to jump-start a dormant volcano, much less an extinct one. If this scene contains creative licence, how can you say with any certainty that the scenes on the Ama island are accurate? And if you use another text to verify those scenes, then its tands to reason that that text is a better representation of life in that time simply because it is factual whereas the film is a work of fiction.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2011 Posts: 15,718
    Ok, I'll explain it : During the 2000's decade, zero film set in those years was nominated in the Best Costumes award. So by your argument, no film whatsoever is a good representation of the 2000's. Your argument is that an Oscar nomination means it's a better representation or whatever than none-nominated films. So then your beloved Christopher Nolan is a talentless hack, since he was never nominated as a director. Then your beloved CR is a rubbish film since it doesn't have any nomination.

    So you are telling my only 5 films are a year are good depiction of fashion trends ? Total bullsh*t.
  • shadowonthesunshadowonthesun Banned
    Posts: 1,894
    Which would be an excellent argument if I was using DIE ANOTHER DAY, CASINO ROYALE or QUANTUM OF SOLACE as an example of a Bond film. However, I used THUNDERBALL as my example, a film made thirty-five years before the year 2000. And the film that received a nomintation for Best Costume Design at the 38th Academy Awards was SHIP OF FOOLS, a film that, like THUNDERBALL, was set in the mid-1960s. Because SHIP OF FOOLS received a nomination when THUNDERBALL did not, and because both films were set in the same time period, it is therefore logical to assume that SHIP OF FOOLS is a better representation of mid-1960s fashion.

    My post had nothing to do with the year 2000. You're only three and a half decades off.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited October 2011 Posts: 15,718
    Are you for real ? How can you sprout so much nonsense ? So you are saying none of the Bond films are good depiction of their era's fashion since none were ever nominated ? Are you saying John Barry made crap music for Bond since he was never nominated ? Are you saying all the Bond directors are talentless hack since none were nominated for Bond ?

    When has Oscar nominations ever meant anything ? Are John Ford and Alfred Hitchcock total hacks compared to Paul Haggis, since he won an oscar and not them?

    I can't believe someone would post such idiotic argument. Sorry.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Keep it civil peeps....
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited October 2011 Posts: 24,187
    Sorry, but by your logic, any film made in any year can be held up as an historical document, representative of the time period it was made in. In keeping with that logic, there are hundreds of better candidates for "historical documents" than Bond films.
    @shadowonthesun, please end this pointless bickering. Your own logic is perfectly flawed. Star Wars was released in '77 and yet it is in no direct way a testament of that period. How does Hellraiser document the end of the eighties? Terminator 2, Avatar, Titanic... ? DC's point is not merely his own; many film historians have devoted entire chapters or even entire books on how the Bond films can function as records of the time in which they were released. Almost every Bond film is culturally significant - the Bond series isn't only a travelogue across the planet, but through time as well. Your DAD comment, for example, isn't the best example to prove your point. In 2000, academic papers were published concerning the first demonstrations of synthetic materials with a negative index of refraction, the first step towards invisibility. Half of the world's celebrities undergo plastic surgery, it's become big news in the past decade. In 1999, gene therapy had become so controversial, one had to locate a clinic outside the States to get (illegally) treated... Also, DC isn't trying to convince you that Bond films should replace history class in school. He's merely suggesting that they hold some historical value and he never claimed that there aren't films with more historical significance.
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