The World Is Not Enough appreciation thread

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  • Posts: 1,916
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Does this film remind anyone of NTTD? The tone, feel, and Craig’s portrayal?

    No, it reminds me of SF. Craig's portrayal of Bond in NTTD is miles from Brosnan's in TWINE and so is everything else in TWINE.

    Can you give other examples of where you think these occur?

    @BT3366 I’d have to rewatch it to be honest, it’s been a long time. I just think the entire feel of TWINE is similar to NTTD. Now the ending are very different, of course (to answer @astonlotus). Craig’s Bond’s attitude and style was similar to Brosnan’s imo. Using the machine gun and a high body count (common for Brosnan films). But, I guess that Craig just reminded me more of Brosnan’s Bond in this film. I will rewatch twine and give a better response soon.

    A few include M enabling the villain and using questionable tactics; a direct attack on Mi6; Bond being injured/shot; the villain basically being a terrorist; Mi6 relocating to a different HQ; action in London; Silva/Renard being disfigured due to Mi6.

    Brosnan only really used the machine gun in TWINE in the bunker scene but went overtime in NTTD.
  • Posts: 2,159
    Quick question on TWINE.

    IMDB lists the press screening of this film at 2hr 40mins. Presumably this is an error on their part, or was there really a cut that long?
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,277
    I appreciated when TWINE ended.
  • Posts: 1,916
    Mallory wrote: »
    Quick question on TWINE.

    IMDB lists the press screening of this film at 2hr 40mins. Presumably this is an error on their part, or was there really a cut that long?

    IMDB is notorious for such things, not saying it isn't true but should be taken lightly. I know the boat chase was much longer at one point and there's some deleted scenes on the Blu-ray/DVD.
    echo wrote: »
    I appreciated when TWINE ended.

    Same here, my least favorite movie. I've noticed that each week one of the films gets rereleased it gets instant praise from a lot of people. I guess seeing them on the big screen helps the sentiment, but rarely do I see anybody saying anything negative. Is there that much difference in opinion by seeing a film on the big screen vs. at home that would influence that?
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,147
    I've seen a fair few comments over the years that QOS and its infamous editing didn't pack quite so much sensory overload on dvd as it did on a big screen in the cinema. I dunno if that's due to the scale or to the familiarity that comes from rewatches, though. Maybe both - I still remember sitting back almost breathless after the car chase the first time I saw it in the cinema! In a good way, obvs ;)
  • Posts: 7,405
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Mallory wrote: »
    Quick question on TWINE.

    IMDB lists the press screening of this film at 2hr 40mins. Presumably this is an error on their part, or was there really a cut that long?

    IMDB is notorious for such things, not saying it isn't true but should be taken lightly. I know the boat chase was much longer at one point and there's some deleted scenes on the Blu-ray/DVD.
    echo wrote: »
    I appreciated when TWINE ended.

    Same here, my least favorite movie. I've noticed that each week one of the films gets rereleased it gets instant praise from a lot of people. I guess seeing them on the big screen helps the sentiment, but rarely do I see anybody saying anything negative. Is there that much difference in opinion by seeing a film on the big screen vs. at home that would influence that?

    The ones I have gone to every week, since they began the big screen reshowings, have been mostly my favourites anyway, ( apart from TSWLM, but I did enjoy seeing it with an audience, small as it was!) I am currently skipping the Brossa films, as no matter how big a screen or audience, they do nothing for me!
  • edited August 2022 Posts: 2,264
    echo wrote: »
    I appreciated when TWINE ended.

    That’s how I feel about Die Another Day, surely that’s a much more satisfying experience than watching TWINE end
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited August 2022 Posts: 24,161
    I've always had my reservations about TWINE. Here's what I struggle with:
    - the story is weak: it relies too much on teen soap drama and last-minute conveniences;
    - the action post-PTS is terrible: everything happens so slowly that even the score has to follow a dull tempo to avoid going faster than the visuals;
    - The music, in general, is a bit messy in my opinion. Whatever Arnold is doing there, it's a bit much at times. During the submarine climax, for example, instruments are just shouting, making loud, screaming noises; whatever melody is in there gets lost in the musical turmoil.

    The one thing that has never been a problem for me, however, is Denise Richards as Christmas Jones, and I'm glad that this article zooms in on her performance with a fresh air of positivity. She was doing the best she could with the material she was given. One might say she was in a different movie than everyone else. But at least she delivered her lines well and in character, with a sense of humour and youthful energy. The "glimmer" line and the "don't speak spy" line may make some cringe, but I like what she does there. Brosnan's "he knew exactly where to huuuuuuuurt me!" and "isn't that your ... mottooo?" come off as classroom exercises in drama during amateur hour.

    In a film that has 'funeral' written all over it but fails to supply the material to allow for that tone, in a film that requires someone's nephew to deliver a sub and an old friend of M's family to get the ball running, in a film that has edited its action in the most unspectacular and "un-kinetic" way, at least Denise is something for me to look forward to, and not just because of the hot pants, but because she may very well be the one element that brings just enough electricity to keep the lights on. If we want to criticise TWINE, let's talk to P&W, whose first Bond script should already have signalled trouble. Let's talk to the editor, the composer, most of the cast, and Apted (if we still could)... who were all trying to make a good Bond film but simply couldn't keep the flame burning. Poor Denise, for over two decades unfairly maligned as the weakest element in the film, should be re-evaluated, in my opinion, as the only ray of sunshine admitted in what is, to me, one of the dullest of the Bonds. TWINE is a film that starts out strong and then, suddenly, shuts down and lets the good things go home early. The rest of the film is trying to get to the end coasting on the good vibes from the PTS. If it weren't for Denise, I'd almost call this a weaker film than NSNA.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,277
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    I've always had my reservations about TWINE. Here's what I struggle with:
    - the story is weak: it relies too much on teen soap drama and last-minute conveniences;
    - the action post-PTS is terrible: everything happens so slowly that even the score has to follow a dull tempo to avoid going faster than the visuals;
    - The music, in general, is a bit messy in my opinion. Whatever Arnold is doing there, it's a bit much at times. During the submarine climax, for example, instruments are just shouting, making loud, screaming noises; whatever melody is in there gets lost in the musical turmoil.

    The one thing that has never been a problem for me, however, is Denise Richards as Christmas Jones, and I'm glad that this article zooms in on her performance with a fresh air of positivity. She was doing the best she could with the material she was given. One might say she was in a different movie than everyone else. But at least she delivered her lines well and in character, with a sense of humour and youthful energy. The "glimmer" line and the "don't speak spy" line may make some cringe, but I like what she does there. Brosnan's "he knew exactly where to huuuuuuuurt me!" and "isn't that your ... mottooo?" come off as classroom exercises in drama during amateur hour.

    In a film that has 'funeral' written all over it but fails to supply the material to allow for that tone, in a film that requires someone's nephew to deliver a sub and an old friend of M's family to get the ball running, in a film that has edited its action in the most unspectacular and "un-kinetic" way, at least Denise is something for me to look forward to, and not just because of the hot pants, but because she may very well be the one element that brings just enough electricity to keep the lights on. If we want to criticise TWINE, let's talk to P&W, whose first Bond script should already have signalled trouble. Let's talk to the editor, the composer, most of the cast, and Apted (if we still could)... who were all trying to make a good Bond film but simply couldn't keep the flame burning. Poor Denise, for over two decades unfairly maligned as the weakest element in the film, should be re-evaluated, in my opinion, as the only ray of sunshine admitted in what is, to me, one of the dullest of the Bonds. TWINE is a film that starts out strong and then, suddenly, shuts down and lets the good things go home early. The rest of the film is trying to get to the end coasting on the good vibes from the PTS. If it weren't for Denise, I'd almost call this a weaker film than NSNA.

    That is a really good point about the nephew, M's family friend...the script does reek of soap opera and the entire enterprise seems tired. The only people who seem engaged are Dench (always), Marceau, and Richards.

    Clearly this is the dry run for SF, which did it all a lot better.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,195
    It’s my favorite Brosnan Bond.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,147
    Indeed - Denise is blameless: she didn't write the part and she didn't cast herself. Oh, hang on, by that reasoning I can't denigrate David Dencik either! Hmm, I might have to rethink this...
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,161
    It's funny how in both AVTAK and TWINE I feel compelled to defend the girl. :-D I just get the sense that the girls are sometimes taking the blame for a part they never wrote in a film they didn't direct. That doesn't excuse poor acting, evidently--I'm saying that in my opinion, neither acted poorly. The complaint I've most heard regarding Denise isn't even about her acting but about her character. Somehow, physicists aren't supposed to look or dress "like that". This complaint comes from people who, clearly, haven't been around that many scientists in real life. I know a few very attractive scientists with an appetizing Summer wardrobe. Scientists aren't all nerds still wearing granny's clothes. ;-) Denise was also 27-ish at the time of shooting the film. At that age, you can have the necessary degrees and commit yourself to field work. Not all nuclear physicists are old men like Dr. Arkov.
  • I actually like TWINE quite a bit, to me I think there are much worse Bond films that have committed bigger sins than TWINE has. Yeah its tonally confusing, and could’ve done with a bit more fleshed characters, but it’s still a Bond film I enjoy watching.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,787
    I still liked TWINE despite of Denise Richards, she's really fit for a Bond Girl, but it's not her fault though, more really on the script, in the script, she's supposed to be a French Polynesian but still wearing a Khaki Bra (that Lara Croft attire), and I've read those dialogues, and based on that old script, the character was really written as a sexual foil for Bond, so really not a good thing, not Denise's fault.

    It could be also applied to Mary Goodnight who's supposed to be a trusted and competent MI6 agent, but we all know what happened, that's because of the writing, do I blame Britt Ekland? No, I blame the writing for turning her into a bimbo, same for Jill St. John and Halle Berry (especially the latter, a great actress ruined by bad writing).

    Those Bond Girls where I really blame the actresses are Barbara Bach and Talisa Soto, their characters are both great on paper, but it's their acting and their delivery of lines that brought those characters down.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    - The music, in general, is a bit messy in my opinion. Whatever Arnold is doing there, it's a bit much at times. During the submarine climax, for example, instruments are just shouting, making loud, screaming noises; whatever melody is in there gets lost in the musical turmoil.

    To be fair, I think the music is doing a lot of heavy lifting during a lot of these sequences as they are very flatly directed. The Submarine sequence kind of just rumbles along without any sense of excitement or claustrophobia, so I think Arnold was attempting to compensate. Bond killing Elektra is the highlight of that third act, and manages to be more tense and exciting despite being way smaller in scale.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited August 2022 Posts: 6,277
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    - The music, in general, is a bit messy in my opinion. Whatever Arnold is doing there, it's a bit much at times. During the submarine climax, for example, instruments are just shouting, making loud, screaming noises; whatever melody is in there gets lost in the musical turmoil.

    To be fair, I think the music is doing a lot of heavy lifting during a lot of these sequences as they are very flatly directed. The Submarine sequence kind of just rumbles along without any sense of excitement or claustrophobia, so I think Arnold was attempting to compensate. Bond killing Elektra is the highlight of that third act, and manages to be more tense and exciting despite being way smaller in scale.

    Agreed. I like him (certainly better than all of the other recent composers), but the end action scenes of Arnold's scores all sound about the same. It wasn't until QoS that he got the balance right, which is his triumph.
  • edited August 2022 Posts: 2,264
    echo wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    - The music, in general, is a bit messy in my opinion. Whatever Arnold is doing there, it's a bit much at times. During the submarine climax, for example, instruments are just shouting, making loud, screaming noises; whatever melody is in there gets lost in the musical turmoil.

    To be fair, I think the music is doing a lot of heavy lifting during a lot of these sequences as they are very flatly directed. The Submarine sequence kind of just rumbles along without any sense of excitement or claustrophobia, so I think Arnold was attempting to compensate. Bond killing Elektra is the highlight of that third act, and manages to be more tense and exciting despite being way smaller in scale.

    Agreed. I like him (certainly better than all of the other recent composers), but the end action scenes of Arnold's scores all sound about the same. It wasn't until QoS that he got the balance right, which is his triumph.

    Which is too bad seeing as how he has yet to come back to the series.

    Speaking of the music, what would the general consensus on Garbage’s theme be?
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,147
    Agreed that David Arnold suddenly seemed to flourish with CR and QOS. Vesper and City of Lovers - who'd've guessed he'd got those in him?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,161
    echo wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    - The music, in general, is a bit messy in my opinion. Whatever Arnold is doing there, it's a bit much at times. During the submarine climax, for example, instruments are just shouting, making loud, screaming noises; whatever melody is in there gets lost in the musical turmoil.

    To be fair, I think the music is doing a lot of heavy lifting during a lot of these sequences as they are very flatly directed. The Submarine sequence kind of just rumbles along without any sense of excitement or claustrophobia, so I think Arnold was attempting to compensate. Bond killing Elektra is the highlight of that third act, and manages to be more tense and exciting despite being way smaller in scale.

    Agreed. I like him (certainly better than all of the other recent composers), but the end action scenes of Arnold's scores all sound about the same. It wasn't until QoS that he got the balance right, which is his triumph.

    Which is too bad seeing as how he has yet to come back to the series.

    Speaking of the music, what would the general consensus on Garbage’s theme be?

    I don't know about the general consensus but I sure like the theme. I love Manson's vocals especially. It's a song that had to grow on me, but now, squeezed between Sheryl Crow's strange TND and Madonna's painful DAD, I'd say TWINE is a pretty good song. It's nothing special, but it's not at all dull or bland either.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    Venutius wrote: »
    Agreed that David Arnold suddenly seemed to flourish with CR and QOS. Vesper and City of Lovers - who'd've guessed he'd got those in him?

    I don't think it was all that sudden. His TND often gets labelled as "pastiche" but there's numerous wonderful moments in there, same with TWINE. I like DAD, too - even if it suffers from an overabundance of electronics. It's exciting stuff. He gets a bad rap, but he gave us a lot of good stuff. CR and QOS are rightfully heralded as his best works but he showed plenty of potential beforehand, even if it was in fits and starts.

    I don't think any Bond composer aside from Barry ever nailed a Bond score 100%, so he's not unique in that regard.
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    - The music, in general, is a bit messy in my opinion. Whatever Arnold is doing there, it's a bit much at times. During the submarine climax, for example, instruments are just shouting, making loud, screaming noises; whatever melody is in there gets lost in the musical turmoil.

    To be fair, I think the music is doing a lot of heavy lifting during a lot of these sequences as they are very flatly directed. The Submarine sequence kind of just rumbles along without any sense of excitement or claustrophobia, so I think Arnold was attempting to compensate. Bond killing Elektra is the highlight of that third act, and manages to be more tense and exciting despite being way smaller in scale.

    Agreed. I like him (certainly better than all of the other recent composers), but the end action scenes of Arnold's scores all sound about the same. It wasn't until QoS that he got the balance right, which is his triumph.

    Which is too bad seeing as how he has yet to come back to the series.

    Speaking of the music, what would the general consensus on Garbage’s theme be?

    I don't know about the general consensus but I sure like the theme. I love Manson's vocals especially. It's a song that had to grow on me, but now, squeezed between Sheryl Crow's strange TND and Madonna's painful DAD, I'd say TWINE is a pretty good song. It's nothing special, but it's not at all dull or bland either.

    I also really like the song. It captures what the film was going for exceptionally well and manages to be romantic and dangerous at the same time.
  • talos7talos7 New Orleans
    Posts: 8,195
    I was, am, a big fan of “Garbage” , and wile I like the song, I don’t live it. All in all it’s fairly unremarkable and tries too hard to sound Bondian. I wish the sound had been a bit more aggressive, somewhat in the “ Stupid Girl” mold

    I actually like the song “ Tomorrow Never Dies” but I’m not a fan of Crowe’s strained vocal . Now, had Shirley Manson provided the vocal for Tomorrow Never Dies” it my have been remembered as a classic.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,277
    Also, why Christmas *Jones*? Easily could have been Christmas Tree or Christmas Belle or something. Is it supposed to be a riff on Indiana Jones?
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,161
    echo wrote: »
    Also, why Christmas *Jones*? Easily could have been Christmas Tree or Christmas Belle or something. Is it supposed to be a riff on Indiana Jones?

    Christmas Joys? 😉
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited August 2022 Posts: 4,583
    I'm late to the party, here.

    I watched Broz's four films repeatedly in the early weeks of the pandemic. They were all available, and I didn't have much else to do but go back and watch them. Prior to that point, I had gone with the prevailing winds: that GE was his best and each film got progressively worse.

    After watching more recently and more closely, I no longer find that to be the case.

    To me, all these years later, TWINE is by far his best film. And whereas I once viewed Denise Richards as a serious casting blunder in 1999, I now think her role and performance in the film have been greatly and unjustly maligned. She's far from my favorite Bond girl, but she doesn't drag the film down as much as I once thought. She's fine--and I agree with @DarthDimi on this. And she works as a nice foil to Marceau.

    The biggest positive is Broz himself. This is his best performance as Bond: much more assured and relaxed in the role. He's found himself in it. And I think his work in The Thomas Crown Affair, produced just prior to TWINE, may have helped.

    I always liked Robert Carlyle as the villain. He's very underrated, and a precursor to Silva in SF.

    Whereas @DarthDimi sees a lack of proper development in the action sequences, I really liked them. We had some throwback to Moore with the ski sequence (the last ski sequence in a Bond film ever) and the nuclear device, but there's also a bit of the Dalton brooding that we'd eventually see more of with DC. The helicopter sequence, with the giant buzz saws, might be a bit hoaky, but it works for me: one of my favorite action sequences in the franchise.

    At one time, this was considered the worst Bond film of all time. Hmmm. I beg to differ.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    I still rank it at the bottom.
  • DarthDimi wrote: »
    echo wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    - The music, in general, is a bit messy in my opinion. Whatever Arnold is doing there, it's a bit much at times. During the submarine climax, for example, instruments are just shouting, making loud, screaming noises; whatever melody is in there gets lost in the musical turmoil.

    To be fair, I think the music is doing a lot of heavy lifting during a lot of these sequences as they are very flatly directed. The Submarine sequence kind of just rumbles along without any sense of excitement or claustrophobia, so I think Arnold was attempting to compensate. Bond killing Elektra is the highlight of that third act, and manages to be more tense and exciting despite being way smaller in scale.

    Agreed. I like him (certainly better than all of the other recent composers), but the end action scenes of Arnold's scores all sound about the same. It wasn't until QoS that he got the balance right, which is his triumph.

    Which is too bad seeing as how he has yet to come back to the series.

    Speaking of the music, what would the general consensus on Garbage’s theme be?

    I don't know about the general consensus but I sure like the theme. I love Manson's vocals especially. It's a song that had to grow on me, but now, squeezed between Sheryl Crow's strange TND and Madonna's painful DAD, I'd say TWINE is a pretty good song. It's nothing special, but it's not at all dull or bland either.

    I too like the theme, but I probably like the official remixes of it slightly more, specifically the “Chilled Out” Remix. I’d say Garbage’s theme is my 3rd favorite song of the Brosnan/Craig eras behind “You Know My Name” and “Goldeneye”
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,583
    I still rank it at the bottom.

    Moonraker has that spot. By a wide margin, ;)
  • TripAces wrote: »
    I still rank it at the bottom.

    Moonraker has that spot. By a wide margin, ;)

    AVTAK for me, that one grinds my gears more than others
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2022 Posts: 3,787
    TripAces wrote: »
    I still rank it at the bottom.

    Moonraker has that spot. By a wide margin, ;)

    AVTAK for me, that one grinds my gears more than others

    Diamonds Are Forever for me, what a big insult and disappointment.
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