Was SPECTRE a disappointment?

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  • Posts: 4,139
    Yes, I can’t see what another few films in a sort of QOS style would have added. I don’t think it’s something general audiences (or indeed most fans) would have wanted from Bond at the time.

    I disagree about what some people here say about SF - for me it’s peak Bond, and I’d argue more so than even DN (I think it understands Bond as a character better anyway). I certainly remember at the time just how well it was received in comparison to QOS. Say what you want about it, but I think it’s a film which renewed the Craig era (and by extension Bond).
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited February 25 Posts: 8,395
    I think regardless of how much someone likes each particular Craig film, it's hard to imagine the CR-QOS style not being kind of a dead end. Apart from the bits that resemble Fleming's novel, nothing in CR is very Bondian at all, and the vast majority of scenes could be from any other action movie or melodrama. QOS continues this, and does a bit more traditionally Bondian stuff (the hotel finale, for example), but then doesn't have even the faint shadow of Fleming CR had.

    I know people moan about the few minutes of quick editing in QOS and it's not a widely loved film (certainly not like CR), but if you take the card table out of Casino Royale, it just has little to do with James Bond, and that's what really bothers people about QOS. Making James Bond something that bears little resemblance to any past incarnation (Fleming/EON) wouldn't be sustainable over a generation of films.

    (To be clear, I love QOS!)

    THANK YOU =D>

    I once heard that the Star Wars prequels served to make someone appreciate Return of the Jedi more, because whilst the ewoks, the second death star, and Luke and Leia being siblings were all silly concepts in and of themselves, what we got with the prequels made them look like citizen kane by comparison.

    For me, the Craig era did the same thing for the Brosnan films. I've been a Goldeneye fan ever since I can remember, but his other films I always thought of as falling short of the heights Connery and Moore, but since the Craig era finally concluded I now view Brosnan as the authentic continuation of "traditional" bond updated for the 90's, whereas Craig is very much a departure to something else entirely. But Brosnan truly inhibited bond, with all that entailed, which Craig only began to do at the end of his tenure. If you had to pick one car chase to make it onto the Mount rushmore of Bond chases would you pick the TND BMW chase, or the SP Rome chase? Which sounds more bondian "back seat driver" or "the moors"? No contest.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Well, colour me flabbergasted! When SF came out, it seemed like everyone but me loved it, now it seems like there are others that seem to feel it's not a perfect film.... :P
    IMHO, Craig's era is a trilogy... CR, QOS & SP. SF just has a killer title song to a so-so Bond movie, and NTTD is dead to me.
  • Posts: 1,985
    Does anyone know when the Brofeld angle was conceived? Did the writers know as early as CR that was the direction they wanted to go. Or the did family home and gravestones in SF inspire that development? Lots of things throughout the Bond film history have struck as wrong headed decisions, but linking Bond and Blofeld is the absolute worst for me, even more than Bond's death.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Pretty sure it was MGW's idea, conceived for Spectre, to have this Blofeld be someone from Bond's past.
  • Posts: 1,340
    Pretty sure it was MGW's idea, conceived for Spectre, to have this Blofeld be someone from Bond's past.

    "Make It personal!"
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Pretty sure it was MGW's idea, conceived for Spectre, to have this Blofeld be someone from Bond's past.

    And yet, people want Barbara Broccoli fired. ;-)

    I agree with @CrabKey that it probably wasn't the best decision. On the other hand, it doesn't kill the film for me, either.
  • Posts: 1,078
    The weird thing about the brother idea, was it never seemed to register with Bond. I can see that the idea was to make it personal, but there was no indication that Bond was the slightest bit bothered that his half-brother had turned on him. It might as well have been the milkman.
  • edited February 27 Posts: 4,139
    I suppose we tend to forget that the implication is that they only knew each other for a few months (if that). They’re not actual step brothers or anything like that. It’s seemingly a coincidence that they even get involved with each other this far down the line.

    It’s a bit strange as the dialogue plays up the ‘author of all your pain’ stuff so it plays up their connection (at least on Blofeld’s side). There’s also his comments about his father taking in Bond etc. which I guess would imply to many that Blofeld dislikes Bond because of this. It’s never quite specified why he kills his father if I remember correctly. I think it’s a case where what’s on the page isn’t quite gelling with the story. Honestly, I actually think them not knowing each other is more impactful, especially if Blofeld was the puppet master behind what is essentially Vesper's death. I think there was plenty already there.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 27 Posts: 18,270
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Does anyone know when the Brofeld angle was conceived? Did the writers know as early as CR that was the direction they wanted to go. Or the did family home and gravestones in SF inspire that development? Lots of things throughout the Bond film history have struck as wrong headed decisions, but linking Bond and Blofeld is the absolute worst for me, even more than Bond's death.

    Things definitely weren't as planned as they needed to be from the start. That's obvious if you track the Craig era from start to finish. Bear in mind that up until the settlement with the McClory Estate in 2013 Eon didn't have the rights to Blofeld and SPECTRE so Quantum was meant to be the villainous organisation instead. Once they got the rights back from McClory they were chomping at the bit to use Blofeld and SPECTRE again and so Quantum was out and Spectre was in.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    Does anyone know when the Brofeld angle was conceived? Did the writers know as early as CR that was the direction they wanted to go. Or the did family home and gravestones in SF inspire that development? Lots of things throughout the Bond film history have struck as wrong headed decisions, but linking Bond and Blofeld is the absolute worst for me, even more than Bond's death.

    Things definitely weren't as planned as they needed to be from the start. That's obvious if you track the Craig era from start to finish. Bear in mind that up until the settlement with the McClory Estate in 2013 Eon didn't have the rights to Blofeld and SPECTRE so Quantum was meant to be the villainous organisation instead. Once they got the rights back from McClory they were chomping at the but to use Blofeld and SPECTRE again and so Quantum was out and Spectre was in.

    I like the idea of Spectre as the darker organization 'behind' Quantum. But despite my love for SP, I'm not sure they did what they could to make the best of it.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    As much I love the Craig era and the way Spectre was represented in most of the film, I wish they kept Spectre and Blofeld back for Bond #7.

    I think the Craig era was stronger when it had villains that were original, Le Chiffre and Silva being perfect examples
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    @Jordo007
    I could agree with you. After all, Spectre was introduced in Bond 24 and terminated in Bond 25. That's why I'm willing to give them the chance to reset things and start anew with Spectre for the next actor.
  • Posts: 4,139
    Ultimately, I think they made the right decision bringing SPECTRE/Blofeld back during Craig’s run rather than leaving it for later, even if I don’t think it was handled that well. With Blofeld there needs to be a deeper element to him and Bond’s antagonism. Otherwise he’s just any other villain. They had the opportunity to do this with the Vesper storyline.

    Personally, I’m not too keen on getting another incarnation for Bond 7. I think stand alone villains working independently are more interesting.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    As much I love the Craig era and the way Spectre was represented in most of the film, I wish they kept Spectre and Blofeld back for Bond #7.

    I think the Craig era was stronger when it had villains that were original, Le Chiffre and Silva being perfect examples

    That was my hope. Would've been a lot smarter to wait, flesh out some ideas, and let the organization run through the entirety of a new era. Introducing them four films in in some retroactive manner was a terrible idea to me.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I love the way they represented Spectre the organisation in SP, the meeting scene was great and really tense, I was actually nervous for Bond. I just wish it was more like that throughout

    Perhaps if Daniel had a better time on SP, we could have had another film from him in 2017/18, that could have made Spectre more of a recurring threat as an organisation.
  • edited February 27 Posts: 1,078
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I love the way they represented Spectre the organisation in SP, the meeting scene was great and really tense, I was actually nervous for Bond. I just wish it was more like that throughout

    I remember thinking that scene was sooo great in the cinema. When Blofeld looked at Bond, with the James/cuckoo stuff, that was creepy as.

    SPECTRE is like all the ingredients of a fantastic Bond film, cooked together in a way that didn't quite work.
    As daft as this might sound, I think the same of DAD.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I love the way they represented Spectre the organisation in SP, the meeting scene was great and really tense, I was actually nervous for Bond. I just wish it was more like that throughout

    Perhaps if Daniel had a better time on SP, we could have had another film from him in 2017/18, that could have made Spectre more of a recurring threat as an organisation.

    Yes, agreed, that scene was great. The shadowy, silhouette outline of Blofeld was very well done and artily shot. Blofeld/Oberhauser addressing Bond directly was very creepy. It was like he had a sixth sense and knew he was there. I really need to watch Spectre again on Blu-ray. Not seen it since I watched it again in preparation for seeing NTTD in the cinema back in October 2021.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited February 27 Posts: 17,795
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I love the way they represented Spectre the organisation in SP, the meeting scene was great and really tense, I was actually nervous for Bond. I just wish it was more like that throughout

    I remember thinking that scene was sooo great in the cinema. When Blofeld looked at Bond, with the James/cuckoo stuff, that was creepy as.
    Actually that was about my favourite part of the film. But I also loved the Hinx fight, and shooting down the helicopter (I was SO sure it was going to come to nothing with the helicopter getting away clean for Blofeld to just rebuild SPECTRE for the next film, and when it actually WORKED I audibly cried "YES!!!" in the theatre).

  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited February 27 Posts: 3,152
    Pity they couldn't work out a way to shoot the helicopter down with the prototype rifle that Q had been working on earlier, though.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Venutius wrote: »
    Pity they couldn't work out a way to shoot the helicopter down with the prototype rifle that Q had been working on earlier, though.

    Nice idea... Plant something in one act-- especially (Checkhov's) gun-- use it in the last act... Great idea @Venutius 👌👌👌
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited March 2 Posts: 17,795
    Just now watched SP and yeah, I love it.
    EDIT to add: three days later and I have to say that while I had a great time with it while I was watching, I'm left with a slightly hollow feeling. Like, the movie was made without a clear idea of what they were doing. I got that same feeling with SF, but at least SP was more fun.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    Okay, here's my bottom line with SPECTRE (and Craig's tenure)- SP had many great moments, but they were mostly hollow. A kite dancing in the wind was a great line, but then he destroys the lair with a bullet, and Blofeld's chopper with another, and sure it was fun for me, but cotton candy fun. Even Die Another Day had more substance.
    Basically, he had two really good movies up front.
    Should have gotten Forster or Campbell to do the others...
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 216
    The Craig era, for good or ill, is where Bond almost always *lost*.
    CR — lost
    QOS — win, and no score draw on the ongoing stuff
    SF — outright loss. Doesn’t matter that baddie died, he had one goal, and he achieves that
    SP — a win. Completed only missions he was given, and baddie is thwarted.
    NTTD — wins, but didn’t need to be in situation in first place, and literally dies at the end, so actually a loss.

    This doesn’t mean any of them are *bad* films, or from a certain point of view bad Bond films — but it’s does mean they aren’t in keeping with the borderline genre-romance/genre-action films of the past. There are no ‘Happy For Now’ endings aside from Spectre. Which is undone for the plot of NTTD. I actually like the ongoing story arc, and it redeemed the whole era for me, but maybe that is enough of that. At least in such a melodramatic fashion.

    It *may* be time for a back to basics on that front, because audiences may finally be at a point where they like the hero to win again. And without a ‘but at what cost…’ that hangs over all the victories in this era.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    I watched SP casually in the background last night while I was doing other things.

    This is the best way to watch SP. If you don't think about all the stupid plot moves (and take a break to the other room to fold laundry during the C storyline), it's actually a decent movie.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    echo wrote: »
    I watched SP casually in the background last night while I was doing other things.

    This is the best way to watch SP. If you don't think about all the stupid plot moves (and take a break to the other room to fold laundry during the C storyline), it's actually a decent movie.

    You know it's bad when the only way it's decent is when you are purposefully dodging large chunks of the film.

    If not for my completionist desires with my yearly Bondathons, I'd honestly never watch SP again.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    echo wrote: »
    I watched SP casually in the background last night while I was doing other things.

    This is the best way to watch SP. If you don't think about all the stupid plot moves (and take a break to the other room to fold laundry during the C storyline), it's actually a decent movie.

    @echo …. That C plot line was brutal and horribly executed. Andrew Scott pantomimed through his “performance” telegraphing his “evilness “…. He dragged down every scene, and his death was laughably bad and terribly melodramatic (and lame).

    Cut out C, and the film dramatically improves.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    I laugh EVERY time C flashes that goofy "oh no, I'm falling"" look before he stumbles and dies. The whole sequence is free from tension and feels like amateur hour honestly.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    peter wrote: »

    @echo …. That C plot line was brutal and horribly executed. Andrew Scott pantomimed through his “performance” telegraphing his “evilness “….

    It's almost as though the audience is supposed to immediately realize he's not on the side of the heroes.

  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    I laugh EVERY time C flashes that goofy "oh no, I'm falling"" look before he stumbles and dies. The whole sequence is free from tension and feels like amateur hour honestly.

    💯 💯 💯

    Even the music! Ugh.
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