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Ian Fleming V John Le Carre - Tuesday 29th November London

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  • PussyNoMorePussyNoMore
    Posts: 520
    Birdleson wrote: »
    They are both among my favorites. Like I said above, if you enjoy those writers try Graham Greene.

    Graham Greene is without doubt a master albeit PussyNoMore has a strong preference for the novels that Greene himself categorised as 'entertainments' rather than his other works.
    If you like Greene - hopefully you've tried the master, Eric Ambler?




  • PropertyOfALadyPropertyOfALady Colders Federation CEO
    Posts: 3,675
    New update!

    You can now listen to the debate.

    http://www.intelligencesquared.com/events/ian-fleming-vs-john-le-carre-anthony-horowitz-and-david-farr/
  • timmertimmer
    Posts: 4,622
    Personally I rank Fleming #1, Murphy&Sapir authors of the Remo Williams Destroyer novels #2, Ludlum #3.
    LeCarre somewhere down the list,maybe #10.
    Harrumph [-(

    Excellent review @pussy.
    It appears Horowitz distinguished himself admirably in the service of Both Fleming and Bond
    May he be commissioned to scribble numerous future 007 adventures.
  • PropertyOfALadyPropertyOfALady Colders Federation CEO
    Posts: 3,675
    Haha! Scribble. That's funny.
  • timdalton007timdalton007 North Alabama
    Posts: 155
    Just realized one of the readers is the actor Alex McQueen who has been making a name for himself playing the role of Doctor Who villain The Master in various Big Finish audio dramas based on the series. Even more reason to give it a listen!

    timdalton007
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    0BradyM0Bondfanatic7 wrote: »
    I'm with you, @timmer. I enjoy them both, of course, but if I had a choice to read either gentlemen's work and only their work for the rest of my life, Fleming would win every day of the week and thrice on Sunday.

    He doesn't get the credit he deserves in the "higher" literary community, much like Arthur Conan Doyle for his work. Fleming was a beautiful writer who created some of the greatest passages I've read in fiction period, he wrote about locations better than any other, and his stories tell the journey of Bond in a way that is fascinating to read and truly extraordinary. He sought to write the best spy novel ever, but he destroyed that record and instead created an icon that still lives on today, only from his doing.

    I look forward to early next year when I and a few others are going to read the novels all in order while doing reviews of them.

    What's Le Carre said about Fleming, by the way?

    @0Brady, totally agree, a sensual writer, he got under the fingernails, and yes, his character, above others, has survived and is an icon.

    I would love to become a part of the readers in your Flemings series, how can i join?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @peter, we'll have a thread set up when we start the books (for posting reviews and such), and I'll remind you of it when we do it (some time after March I wager, possibly in the summer). Somehow, someway you'll hear about it.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @0Brady, thanks, I look forward to it...!!!

    P
  • 007InVT007InVT Classified
    Posts: 893
    https://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/event-ian-fleming-john-le-carre-debate?id=04194
  • timmertimmer
    Posts: 4,622
    007InVT wrote: »
    https://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/event-ian-fleming-john-le-carre-debate?id=04194

    Good review. Horowitz did exemplary job on behalf of the Fleming works!
  • timdalton007timdalton007 North Alabama
    Posts: 155
    007InVT wrote: »
    https://www.mi6-hq.com/sections/articles/event-ian-fleming-john-le-carre-debate?id=04194

    An excellent review sir! I listened to the audio recording via the Intelligence Squared podcast recently and can only wish I'd been there in person to see it. As a fan of both Fleming and le Carre, for different reasons, it made for interesting listening.

    I'd agree that Alex Macqueen would make an excellent villain though I'd be curious to see what Simon Callow would make of such a role as well given his comments towards the end.

    timdalton007
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Great news, all! The full experience of the Fleming/Le Carré debate is now available as a video!



    I will be sure to watch it sometime soon, now that the full experience of the night is on offer.
  • ThrasosThrasos
    edited February 2017 Posts: 1,469
    I enjoyed watching that video! I liked the question and discussion about what Fleming (if he was alive) and Le Carre would write about regarding spy situations in the world today. I was wondering if you combine a James Bond with a George Smiley, but I don't there's any way, that their personalities, purposes and worlds are very different, though those worlds overlap, and there could be intelligence agents in the world today who combine elements of both. I don't read much lately but love the film versions of both authors' works. I love Bond for the action, love of life and love for the mission...and I enjoy Le Carre for the characters and the relatively slow, methodical process of spywork, following the threads to their gradual conclusion. In a sense, the inner workings of a spy (Le Carre) versus the outer (Fleming), though these definitions certainly overlap too. But no question, I would've voted for Fleming.

    Watching Matthew Lewis on stage, I noticed as others have before that he could be a possible candidate for Bond in the future. He's got the look and reminds me a bit of George Lazenby, but his voice isn't quite there, isn't quite as smooth, suave and deep as other Bond actors have had, with an accent...I don't know if he could work with that for the role...but there seem to be lots of other possible candidates already in line ahead of him should Daniel Craig not return.
  • ThrasosThrasos
    edited February 2017 Posts: 1,469
    I wonder if Le Carre ever thought, "Well, Fleming's taken Bond in this direction, that route is taken, so if I'm going to sell books, I'll have to go in a different direction". Or if he always planned to have Smiley's world and character be the way it was. As to other characters in the spy game, yes there's Jason Bourne, but also Jack Ryan (Tom Clancy)...time for me to watch Hunt for Red October again.
  • GeneralGogolGeneralGogol
    Posts: 928
    Thank you for sharing! @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

    I love both authors, but obviously my vote goes to Fleming. It'll be a pleasure to delve into Le Carre's full bibliography over time... so many works to look forward to! So far I've only read The Spy Who Came in from the Cold, TTSP, Our Kind of Traitor, and A Most Wanted Man.
  • PussyNoMorePussyNoMore
    Posts: 520
    Thrasos wrote: »
    I wonder if Le Carre ever thought, "Well, Fleming's taken Bond in this direction, that route is taken, so if I'm going to sell books, I'll have to go in a different direction". Or if he always planned to have Smiley's world and character be the way it was. As to other characters in the spy game, yes there's Jason Bourne, but also Jack Ryan (Tom Clancy)...time for me to watch Hunt for Red October again.

    In the opinion of PussyNoMore it was really Deighton that opened the door for Le Carre.
    Had the fabulous 'Ipcress File' not created the Anti-Bond phenomena it's doubtful that there would have been a public appetite for a work as bleak as TSWCIFTC at that point in history.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @PussyNoMore, that's very true. To have post-Bond literary works, one first needs Bond. In the chicken vs. egg debate, Fleming is the egg.
  • PussyNoMorePussyNoMore
    Posts: 520
    GeneralGogol wrote: »
    Thank you for sharing! @0BradyM0Bondfanatic7

    I love both authors, but obviously my vote goes to Fleming. It'll be a pleasure to delve into Le Carre's full bibliography over time... so many works to look forward to! So far I've only read The Spy Who Came in from the Cold, TTSP, Our Kind of Traitor, and A Most Wanted Man.

    You have a lot to look forward to. PussyNoMore's personal favourites are 'The Honourable Schoolboy' (by far and away the best of the Smiley trilogy and one of the best books of the last century - any genre), 'The Tailor Of Panama' ( a great homage to Graham Greene), 'The Night Manager' (a phenomenal tale of revenge), 'The Constant Gardner' (a tale of corporate greed) and his last to date ' A Delicate Truth' (ripped from today's headlines would be an apt description).

    PussyNoMore loves Fleming but he understands why Le Carre won despite Horowitz's strong and entertaining advocacy.

  • AlexanderWaverlyAlexanderWaverly
    edited February 2017 Posts: 2,115
    May have been posted on another thread. However, here's John Le Carre in 1964. He's in game No. 2. Starts at the 8:22 mark.

  • timmertimmer
    Posts: 4,622
    AlexanderWaverly wrote: »
    May have been posted on another thread. However, here's John Le Carre in 1964. He's in game No. 2. Starts at the 8:22 mark.

    That's funny. Don't want to spoil but the
    result of the panel guesses is a real schocker
  • PussyNoMorePussyNoMore
    Posts: 520
    This is hilarious.
    PussyNoMore remembers reading TSWCIFTC when it came out.
    There was a lot of hype but as a teenager he found it heavy going. Re-reading it years later its genius was apparent and the excellent movie encouraged him to give it another go albeit he does consider Le Carre's later work to be his best.
  • timmertimmer
    Posts: 4,622
    Re to Tell the Truth, I guess in 1964, there just wasn't enough accessible media for even the informed panelists to know what people looked like, including best-selling authors like Le Carre
    Wouldn't a head shot of the author at least have been on the book's dustjacket?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @timmer, I think Le Carré was also more of a private, mysterious sort, so I don't imagine he let too many photos of himself slip out. He's not prolific in a social sort of way, at least that's the sense I get about him. Like a true spy!
  • AlexanderWaverlyAlexanderWaverly
    Posts: 2,115
    Here's Le Carre in a 1965 talk show appearance.

  • AlexanderWaverlyAlexanderWaverly
    Posts: 2,115
    As an aside, re: To Tell The Truth, a favorite source of impostors was the New York Giants football team.

    It was a different era then, obviously, and professional football wasn't remotely as big as it is today. But star players (including starting quarterback Y.A. Tittle) and coaches were impostors and weren't recognized by panelists for who they were.

    So, having watched a number of these, I can understand why panelists wouldn't recognize Le Carre as he was just starting to become famous.
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