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  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    edited June 2018 Posts: 17,798
    FoxRox wrote: »
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-44588939

    Coming from someone who hates Trump and his administration, this still is not okay.

    Ummm, WHAT? You can refuse to bake a cake for a GAY couple, but you can't refuse to serve a willing fascist mouthpiece? Are we a nation of "Oh, but my personal beliefs prevent me from blah blah blah" OR AREN'T WE???
    Please CHOOSE.
    Choose wisely...
  • Posts: 12,466
    chrisisall wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-44588939

    Coming from someone who hates Trump and his administration, this still is not okay.

    Ummm, WHAT? You can refuse to bake a cake for a GAY couple, but you can't refuse to serve a willing fascist mouthpiece? Are we a nation of "Oh, but my personal beliefs prevent me from blah blah blah" OR AREN'T WE???
    Please CHOOSE.
    Choose wisely...

    Obviously not what I’m implying. I think anyone should get to be served anywhere so long as they’re conducting themselves appropriately.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Well, I'm not going to get into the whole discussion on the rights of the restaurant owner vs. Sarah. Others can, I just don't want to focus on that.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    FoxRox wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-44588939

    Coming from someone who hates Trump and his administration, this still is not okay.

    Ummm, WHAT? You can refuse to bake a cake for a GAY couple, but you can't refuse to serve a willing fascist mouthpiece? Are we a nation of "Oh, but my personal beliefs prevent me from blah blah blah" OR AREN'T WE???
    Please CHOOSE.
    Choose wisely...

    Obviously not what I’m implying. I think anyone should get to be served anywhere so long as they’re conducting themselves appropriately.

    Yeah, I was just referencing other nonsense. We need to be better than this. But I understand the anger that Sarah engenders, and the need to snap back in whatever small (and, I guess LEGAL way now) anyone can....
  • edited June 2018 Posts: 12,466
    chrisisall wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-44588939

    Coming from someone who hates Trump and his administration, this still is not okay.

    Ummm, WHAT? You can refuse to bake a cake for a GAY couple, but you can't refuse to serve a willing fascist mouthpiece? Are we a nation of "Oh, but my personal beliefs prevent me from blah blah blah" OR AREN'T WE???
    Please CHOOSE.
    Choose wisely...

    Obviously not what I’m implying. I think anyone should get to be served anywhere so long as they’re conducting themselves appropriately.

    Yeah, I was just referencing other nonsense. We need to be better than this. But I understand the anger that Sarah engenders, and the need to snap back in whatever small (and, I guess LEGAL way now) anyone can....

    I just liken it to my own life. In my own job I’ve served plenty of jerks. I don’t even like Sanders or her views, but that’s not the point. To me it’s just immature to refuse someone for their moral differences/how they act, because you’re just letting money walk out the door and not being professional. It should only be about the business. Jerks have been and will be served everywhere. Exceptions look immature and silly.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    FoxRox wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-44588939

    Coming from someone who hates Trump and his administration, this still is not okay.

    Ummm, WHAT? You can refuse to bake a cake for a GAY couple, but you can't refuse to serve a willing fascist mouthpiece? Are we a nation of "Oh, but my personal beliefs prevent me from blah blah blah" OR AREN'T WE???
    Please CHOOSE.
    Choose wisely...

    Obviously not what I’m implying. I think anyone should get to be served anywhere so long as they’re conducting themselves appropriately.

    Yeah, I was just referencing other nonsense. We need to be better than this. But I understand the anger that Sarah engenders, and the need to snap back in whatever small (and, I guess LEGAL way now) anyone can....

    I just liken it to my own life. In my own job I’ve served plenty of jerks. I don’t even like Sanders or her views, but that’s not the point. To me it’s just immature to refuse someone for their moral differences/how they act, because you’re just letting money walk out the door and not being professional. It should only be about the business. Jerks have been and will be served everywhere. Exceptions look immature and silly.

    Absolutely agreed. But it's an understandable kneejerk reaction to a kneejerk ruling.
    Better to be a jerk-free society is all.
  • Posts: 12,466
    Of course. In an ideal world.
  • Posts: 1,296
    "it should only be about the business" can be a slippery slope mentality @FoxRox, you have to have princicples, ethics and morals as well otherwise all you're doing is chasing the almighty dollar, which only leads to ruin and it's something we don't address is the dark underbelly of capitalism. Maximizing profit is not what anyone's world should be about, and I have dour words and a crinkled mouth for anyone who operates that way. Not you of course, I have nothing but good words to say about you :)
  • edited June 2018 Posts: 12,466
    IGUANNA wrote: »
    "it should only be about the business" can be a slippery slope mentality @FoxRox, you have to have princicples, ethics and morals as well otherwise all you're doing is chasing the almighty dollar, which only leads to ruin and it's something we don't address is the dark underbelly of capitalism. Maximizing profit is not what anyone's world should be about, and I have dour words and a crinkled mouth for anyone who operates that way. Not you of course, I have nothing but good words to say about you :)

    @IGUANNA So then you’re saying I shouldn’t serve someone just because I disagree with their principles? That’s silly. No matter how much you may want it to change, different people will always have different morals and stances. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and morals, but no one should expect anyone else to follow your same life guidelines. There’s more to the world of business then just “maximizing profit,” but I see no reason to turn away any customer unless they are causing tangible trouble in some way. It goes beyond just “maximizing profit” - it’s having good customer service for EVERYONE, no matter what their moral stances are.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    FoxRox wrote: »
    it’s having good customer service for EVERYONE, no matter what their moral stances are.
    It's professionalism. A lost art. Like truly sinister interrogation... ;)

  • Posts: 12,466
    chrisisall wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    it’s having good customer service for EVERYONE, no matter what their moral stances are.
    It's professionalism. A lost art. Like truly sinister interrogation... ;)

    Exactly. It goes beyond just the money, even though that’s important too.
  • edited June 2018 Posts: 1,296
    No my friend @FoxRox I have no life guidelines to provide, I am not Rachel Ray over here, merely a demented crow who felt compelled to pounce upon your espousing of the merits of moneymaking to make a comment on the mentality of money over everything that has led societys down many dark roads over the course of history. Please don't take me the wrong way, there is always room for refreshing professionalism whether it be from the youth making minimum or whatever else, I don't personally know how cake and sexuality intersected and became a national conversation in USA but a gorilla did too for a couple years so it looks like anything goes sometimes as to the subject of what's a big deal and what itsn't for us which can be very interesting to analyze privately surrounded by friends and familiarities. Sometimes we must stop to ask us why the sky is blue and not red and not just take it as a given.
  • edited June 2018 Posts: 12,466
    I’m not looking to debate about capitalism and the dangers of prioritizing money over everything else. It’s obvious that greed can contribute to moral decay, but that really isn’t the point of what I wanted to get at at all. You want to run a business and kick people out for having opposing morals to your own, be my guest. I’d rather run a business that’s all-inclusive and only kicks out people making trouble in my establishment. Again, it’s not just about getting more money - it’s about being fair and inclusive of everyone. Like it or not, maximizing profits is a key business strategy, regardless of the moral consequences that may or may not follow.

    I’m not sure what you’re getting at by saying “sometimes we must stop to ask us why the sky is blue and not red and not just take it as a given.” Are you referring to capitalism, the idea of kicking people out of places, or what exactly? Some things don’t need overthinking; you’re not a sheep for accepting certain norms/ideas/etc. as they are, so long as you can still think for yourself and weigh the pros and cons of whatever subject is relevant. Example: I accept capitalism is the economic system of the US and recognize it has pros and cons, one of the cons including greed and over-prioritizing money. No economic system is perfect and none ever will be. To me though, in addition to maximizing profit (which is economically sound), a restaurant benefits MORALLY from allowing ANYONE of any moral/ethical background to eat in their place. Objectivity truly is lacking in today’s society.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited June 2018 Posts: 12,480
    Informative article on immigration from Central America and Mexico - what is actually happening, the people who are coming, and reasons why.
    Click into it to get to the article (2 years of research on this).


    And direct link to article: https://www.lawfareblog.com/whos-really-crossing-us-border-and-why-theyre-coming
  • Posts: 628
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I’m not looking to debate about capitalism and the dangers of prioritizing money over everything else. It’s obvious that greed can contribute to moral decay, but that really isn’t the point of what I wanted to get at at all. You want to run a business and kick people out for having opposing morals to your own, be my guest. I’d rather run a business that’s all-inclusive and only kicks out people making trouble in my establishment. Again, it’s not just about getting more money - it’s about being fair and inclusive of everyone. Like it or not, maximizing profits is a key business strategy, regardless of the moral consequences that may or may not follow.

    I’m not sure what you’re getting at by saying “sometimes we must stop to ask us why the sky is blue and not red and not just take it as a given.” Are you referring to capitalism, the idea of kicking people out of places, or what exactly? Some things don’t need overthinking; you’re not a sheep for accepting certain norms/ideas/etc. as they are, so long as you can still think for yourself and weigh the pros and cons of whatever subject is relevant. Example: I accept capitalism is the economic system of the US and recognize it has pros and cons, one of the cons including greed and over-prioritizing money. No economic system is perfect and none ever will be. To me though, in addition to maximizing profit (which is economically sound), a restaurant benefits MORALLY from allowing ANYONE of any moral/ethical background to eat in their place. Objectivity truly is lacking in today’s society.

    You are absolutely on target here, and thank you for posting this. It's always nice to see someone with a good head on their shoulders, especially in this thread.
  • Posts: 12,466
    @Escalus5 I appreciate that; thank you.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Here's a sad article. Almost made me cry...
    https://washingtonmonthly.com/2018/06/23/trumpists-are-suffering-the-free-market-consequences-of-being-deplorable/#.Wy_Yfm7tT8k

    "Trump Republicans are also finding it hard to date in Washington DC, rejected out of hand on Tinder and walked out on over drinks.

    It turns out that when you come to a multicultural cosmopolitan city with an open agenda of white supremacy, patriarchy and anti-urbanism, the native population tends not to like you. When you compound bigoted viewpoints with cruel and inhumane policies like family separation as a deterrent to reduce the percentage of American Hispanic population, you may find yourself unwelcome at Mexican restaurants. It turns out that when your sexual politics are built around retrograde beliefs in male dominance and superiority, empowered women (and decent men) don’t want to have sex with you.

    The irony for conservatives here is that this is freedom of association. Conservatives have long argued for shibboleths like “states’ rights” and “religious freedom” as a code for giving bigots the power to refuse to serve and share space with racial and religious minorities, to refuse to bake cakes for gay weddings and make plates for black diners. Largely through the courts, America has rejected these arguments because minorities are protected classes who deserve freedom from discrimination–and conservatives have whined about these restrictions on their “freedom” of association in this respect for decades.

    But deplorables are not a protected class. Jordan Peterson’s bleatings notwithstanding, liberal women are under no social or moral compulsion to provide romance and sex to misogynistic men. Honduran cooks are under no obligation to serve food to those who want to rip Central American kids out of their parents’ arms and put them in cages. Cosmpolitan cities have no responsibility to create safe spaces for people who reject their values and want to gerrymander them out of representation in government."



  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited June 2018 Posts: 12,480
    There is so much being thrown at us daily - by Trump himself, his administration, Congress, and the mixed media. The most important issues are not resolved, or going away. That takes energy, focus, and action from all U.S. citizens. But we all need a break at times.

    So here's a pause for us, something to smile about.
    I used to watch him sometimes. I think I can find old clips on youtube; I just might do that this week.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Ross

  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Bob Ross is what I like to call "accidental ASMR." Wildly soothing and relaxing.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited June 2018 Posts: 12,480
    Well, I am thankful reporters, local citizens, and other politicians are trying to go in person to witness what is happening to the children taken from parents. It seems the shelters/holding camps/whatever are not giving access readily (no surprise). But people need to keep at this. It is too important. Go ahead and read thru the comments. And this is just one place, one report.


    "...when the number of separated kids rose from a handful to more than 50 in the 300-person shelter, employees were given a 'refresher' course in how to use physical holds on kids, Davidson said."

    "At the cavernous Central Processing Center in McAllen, ****known as the 'dog kennel'**** for its rooms made of chain-link fencing, children slept on mats on the concrete ground."
    *******
    Deporting the parents with promises of reunification and nothing being done to make that happen. Children taken, no reasonable plan seems in place yet to reunite them AND the reality of what they are undergoing while being kept from their parent/family member is traumatising. It is. I think there is no way around that.

    *******

  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    I'll take a break after this one.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Maddow has audio and video worth paying attention.


    Children are being threatened with bad consequences if they speak to reporters (bad consequences being as neutral as I can word this ...)


    And more:




    Anyway, there are other similar reports coming out. This is not an isolated instance.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited June 2018 Posts: 12,480
    And a Senator from Nevada's recent visit to a "camp" detaining children.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    mzTQLTy.jpg?2
  • jake24jake24 Sitting at your desk, kissing your lover, eating supper with your familyModerator
    Posts: 10,591
    Separating children from their families is simply terrible and should be changed as soon as possible. That said, comparing these facilities to concentration camps is a deplorable thing to do. (Not referring to anyone on here, but I've seen some lunatics on Twitter make the comparison and their ignorance truly sickens me).
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    jake24 wrote: »
    Separating children from their families is simply terrible and should be changed as soon as possible. That said, comparing these facilities to concentration camps is a deplorable thing to do. (Not referring to anyone on here, but I've seen some lunatics on Twitter make the comparison and their ignorance truly sickens me).

    A member of the Green Party here posted pictures of both, side by side, in a tweet. The same guy has refused to condemn death penalty for homosexuality.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    jake24 wrote: »
    Separating children from their families is simply terrible and should be changed as soon as possible. That said, comparing these facilities to concentration camps is a deplorable thing to do. (Not referring to anyone on here, but I've seen some lunatics on Twitter make the comparison and their ignorance truly sickens me).

    I've seen that same comparison echoed by a good bit of Democrats over here. Talk about a gross over-exaggeration; what's happening is wrong, but to equate them with concentration camps is just as laughable.
This discussion has been closed.