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  • FoxRox wrote: »
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/texas-teenager-maga-hat-attack-san-antonio-viral-video-a8432581.html

    Another example of a not-so-great look from Trump detractors. Never okay for anyone to stoop to these low levels - I don't care what the situation is. Initiating stuff like this is unacceptable.

    I kinda thought there might be more to this story than originally reported. Here's another angle:

    https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/maga-hat-wearing-kids-attacked-viral-video-wanted-engage-ethnic-cleansing-witness

    For those who can't be bothered to follow the link, here's a bit from the interior of the article: "The witness KENS 5 spoke to, however, disagreed. Though he didn't watch the altercation, the witness said he saw the kids endorsing massive ethnic cleansing in the United States before the video began.

    "They were talking about for the Fourth of July hanging black people from trees that that would be the perfect party. Hopefully, with Donald Trump within the next few years, we can celebrate a white country, a real country without blacks. Maybe we can deport them to Africa," the witness told KENS 5.

    He added: "They said they wanted it to be legal for white people to kill any other race for the Fourth of July."

    While I'm not generally in favor of violence as a first resort, in a situation like this, taking a stupid hat away from a stupid kid is a nothingburger.
  • edited July 2018 Posts: 12,466
    What I can't stand is still justifying resorting to violence, even against potential hate speech. Even if this witness is telling the truth and these kids did say awful things or endorse atrocious behavior, I still wouldn't EVER initiate physical violence of any kind. Two wrongs never make a right.

    Let's assume the witness's story is true. If I heard kids saying things that idiotic, I probably wouldn't even bother wasting my breath trying to change their minds (we all know how often that happens), let alone throwing something at them that brings me down to their pathetic level - or even below. If the other side really wants to represent "tolerance," the least they can do is start trying to be the bigger person in a situation like this.

    EDIT: I should mention if legitimate threats have been made, then it’s the establishment’s responsibility to remove them and keep all customers safe from any kind of dangerous behavior. If all the things had been said that the witness claimed, I probably would notify management.
  • "It's intolerant not to tolerate your adversary's else's intolerance." That's one way of looking at things. Here's another: "Don't bring a knife to a gun fight." I'm not judging...but I assure you, Captain America has no problem with punching Nazis.
  • Posts: 12,466
    Just let me know when we start seeing violence making things better instead of worse. I’ll keep on waiting.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Just let me know when we start seeing violence making things better instead of worse. I’ll keep on waiting.

    If true, I can understand the reaction even more. As a white guy, I can't even begin to understand the rage this [stuff] engenders in people living with it on a daily basis. Not excusing, just empathizing. As a tallish & skinny kid being targeted for abuse in JR High I can attest to rage. Martial arts saved from being a stupid kid with a grudge. Kicking bullies' asses worked for me, so violence DOES have its place occasionally.
  • Posts: 12,466
    chrisisall wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Just let me know when we start seeing violence making things better instead of worse. I’ll keep on waiting.

    If true, I can understand the reaction even more. As a white guy, I can't even begin to understand the rage this [stuff] engenders in people living with it on a daily basis. Not excusing, just empathizing. As a tallish & skinny kid being targeted for abuse in JR High I can attest to rage. Martial arts saved from being a stupid kid with a grudge. Kicking bullies' asses worked for me, so violence DOES have its place occasionally.

    Yes it does - to use when YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS ATTACKED. Initiating = never cool. Self-defense is completely acceptable. Completely different situations.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    FoxRox wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Just let me know when we start seeing violence making things better instead of worse. I’ll keep on waiting.

    If true, I can understand the reaction even more. As a white guy, I can't even begin to understand the rage this [stuff] engenders in people living with it on a daily basis. Not excusing, just empathizing. As a tallish & skinny kid being targeted for abuse in JR High I can attest to rage. Martial arts saved from being a stupid kid with a grudge. Kicking bullies' asses worked for me, so violence DOES have its place occasionally.

    Yes it does - to use when YOU ARE THE ONE WHO IS ATTACKED. Initiating = never cool. Self-defense is completely acceptable. Completely different situations.

    YES! Just saying I understand that I cannot fully understand a level of oppression I never had to endure.
  • edited July 2018 Posts: 1,296
    Standing there in silence never made anything better, these things don't just "go away" and so sometimes our violent animal reactions get the best of us. Do not worry I am not speaking from experience, I unfollowed a 'friend' on Instagram yesterday because he kept liking homophobic posts, sometimes all you can do is tune it out, leave them to their hate and let karma do the rest.
  • Posts: 12,466
    Sometimes you just can’t win - like in the case I originally cited. Taking the witness’s word for truth, you have two idiots spewing hate and being a nuisance verbally. You pretty much know that saying anything to them is futile. Initiating violence only makes it worse; that’s probably not gonna change their minds either, and just makes you another bad guy. The best you could do is notify management that they’re disturbing the peace, or if it escalates contact the authorities.

    I fully endorse using violence if it is in self-defense; it’s a completely different situation. I’m not going to sit around and be physically kicked around, but I’m also never going to initiate that kind of behavior.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I fully endorse using violence if it is in self-defense; it’s a completely different situation. I’m not going to sit around and be physically kicked around, but I’m also never going to initiate that kind of behavior.
    All things being equal, I fully agree.
  • chrisisall wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I fully endorse using violence if it is in self-defense; it’s a completely different situation. I’m not going to sit around and be physically kicked around, but I’m also never going to initiate that kind of behavior.
    All things being equal, I fully agree.

    The problem is: we no longer have a situation where all things are equal, if ever we did.

    The only way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them. The "two idiots" in question here were at the very least, bullies waiting to happen. Maybe now they'll think twice before talking out loud about wanting to lynch people in the name of patriotism; maybe they'll think three times before attempting the act if they know that any true patriot in their path is going to take their little hats away should they make the attempt.
  • Posts: 12,466
    Big, fat maybes. Either way, for my set of values, it’s not worth being a bully to MAYBE deter them from their hafeful views. So many of these people are just talk and no action also; you can’t guarantee they would do anything beyond their talking. It’s hardly mature to simply hear their hateful words and then toss a drink at them and take the hat. Like really? Hardly the best approach if you want to get involved in that.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    chrisisall wrote: »
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I fully endorse using violence if it is in self-defense; it’s a completely different situation. I’m not going to sit around and be physically kicked around, but I’m also never going to initiate that kind of behavior.
    All things being equal, I fully agree.

    The problem is: we no longer have a situation where all things are equal, if ever we did.

    The only way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them. The "two idiots" in question here were at the very least, bullies waiting to happen. Maybe now they'll think twice before talking out loud about wanting to lynch people in the name of patriotism; maybe they'll think three times before attempting the act if they know that any true patriot in their path is going to take their little hats away should they make the attempt.

    Are you endorsing attacks on Nazis, Beatles? Why violence on them? They just want peace through hate...
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  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    "... in hundreds of cases, Customs agents deleted the initial records in which parents and children wre listed together as a family ..."

    SERIOUSLY.

  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited July 2018 Posts: 12,480
    In other news, the U.S. Army is getting rid of immigrants ... who were promised citizenship and who perform important roles

  • I'm not endorsing ANYTHING really -- other than standing up to bullies. And no, opposing bullies does not make oneself a bully. It means one is willing to do the difficult thing at a difficult point in time. This is not a a simple time and I don't see any simple answers, but "violence is never the answer" is a an exceptionally simplistic -- and historically foolish -- response to an existential dilemma. More than anything, my basic point is "Never say never, didn't Sean Connery teach you that?"

    "Big fat maybes"? More like taking steps to avoid a likely pitfall. Take people at their words: if someone says he'd like to shoot up the local high school it's not a maybe, it's a warning that you ignore at at your peril (and the peril of everyone else in school.) If someone says that he hopes to be able to lynch black or brown or yellow people in a few years with Herr Trump's approval then you'd better have the guts to take action to stop that future now or it's not a maybe, it's a probably. Yes, I'll be out on the streets for the next several years, peacefully protesting and urging people to vote and discoursing respectfully like there's no tomorrow...but if some neo-fascist thinks he can walk down the street of my hometown carrying a Nazi flag then civility be damned, I'm getting in his face with whatever comes to hand. I don't own any guns, and don't intend to purchase any, but I have been known to swing a mean baseball bat in my younger days...
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,795
    This fascist [stuff] is piling up...
  • ...or maybe a cheap guitar. Think of me as Quick Draw McGraw in his "El Kabong" guise...
  • Posts: 12,466
    I'm not endorsing ANYTHING really -- other than standing up to bullies. And no, opposing bullies does not make oneself a bully. It means one is willing to do the difficult thing at a difficult point in time. This is not a a simple time and I don't see any simple answers, but "violence is never the answer" is a an exceptionally simplistic -- and historically foolish -- response to an existential dilemma. More than anything, my basic point is "Never say never, didn't Sean Connery teach you that?"

    "Big fat maybes"? More like taking steps to avoid a likely pitfall. Take people at their words: if someone says he'd like to shoot up the local high school it's not a maybe, it's a warning that you ignore at at your peril (and the peril of everyone else in school.) If someone says that he hopes to be able to lynch black or brown or yellow people in a few years with Herr Trump's approval then you'd better have the guts to take action to stop that future now or it's not a maybe, it's a probably. Yes, I'll be out on the streets for the next several years, peacefully protesting and urging people to vote and discoursing respectfully like there's no tomorrow...but if some neo-fascist thinks he can walk down the street of my hometown carrying a Nazi flag then civility be damned, I'm getting in his face with whatever comes to hand. I don't own any guns, and don't intend to purchase any, but I have been known to swing a mean baseball bat in my younger days...


    Ok we get it - I’m a foolish pacifist and don’t condone violence unless necessary. You can start fights with these idiots and I’ll be the one to quietly tip off the appropriate authorities. Promise - I won’t get in your way. Just please don’t assume I take this kind of thing lightly - I simply state so many of these cases are indeed hollow threats.
  • The hollow threats only get a "kabong!" But serious threats need a serious response, and if you hadn't noticed, things are getting pretty serious out there...
  • edited July 2018 Posts: 628
    I kinda thought there might be more to this story than originally reported. Here's another angle:

    https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/maga-hat-wearing-kids-attacked-viral-video-wanted-engage-ethnic-cleansing-witness

    For those who can't be bothered to follow the link, here's a bit from the interior of the article: "The witness KENS 5 spoke to, however, disagreed. Though he didn't watch the altercation, the witness said he saw the kids endorsing massive ethnic cleansing in the United States before the video began.

    "They were talking about for the Fourth of July hanging black people from trees that that would be the perfect party. Hopefully, with Donald Trump within the next few years, we can celebrate a white country, a real country without blacks. Maybe we can deport them to Africa," the witness told KENS 5.

    He added: "They said they wanted it to be legal for white people to kill any other race for the Fourth of July."

    While I'm not generally in favor of violence as a first resort, in a situation like this, taking a stupid hat away from a stupid kid is a nothingburger.

    I went to the news source (KENS 5) and the witness's quote (above) has since been removed and replaced by the following:

    Editor's note: An earlier version of this story included quotes from the alleged witness. Those have been removed from this copy due to concerns about the legitimacy of the statements.

    https://www.kens5.com/article/news/local/witness-claims-viral-whataburger-attack-may-have-been-motivated-by-racist-remarks/273-570979179

    Not surprised. The witness just happened to be having dinner with his family in a Whataburger at 2 a.m.? And the family is receiving death threats? How, exactly, if they chose to remain anonymous?

  • edited July 2018 Posts: 3,566
    This is very definitely a story that is being reported according to one's own particular slant. The KENS 5 report still shows the allegations of racist remarks as being the cause of the incident. Why your particular slant seems to be designed to discredit the racial aspect of this story I leave for others to discern. I certainly have no trouble believing that witnesses are striving to remain anonymous in these fractured times.

    For those who wish to see the report for themselves, here's the current link: https://www.kens5.com/article/news/local/witness-claims-viral-whataburger-attack-may-have-been-motivated-by-racist-remarks/273-570979179
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Wow, you really go out attacking people whose views you don t approve of?
  • edited July 2018 Posts: 628
    Why your particular slant seems to be designed to discredit the racial aspect of this story I leave for others to discern.

    Because I don't like it when people post questionable news stories with anonymous witnesses who make statements that are unverified and have to be pulled by the reporters?

    Right. Okay.

    You're desperate, so now you're implying that I'm a racist.
  • Wow, you really go out attacking people whose views you don t approve of?

    You really go out attacking straw men all that often?
  • edited July 2018 Posts: 3,566
    Escalus5 wrote: »
    Why your particular slant seems to be designed to discredit the racial aspect of this story I leave for others to discern.

    Because I don't like it when people post questionable news stories with anonymous witnesses who make statements that are unverified and have to be pulled by the reporters?

    Right.

    You're desperate, so now you have to imply that I'm a racist.

    Now that the suspect has been identified and arrested, it's clear that there is a racial aspect to this story. Hispanic man in Texas. White kids. MAGA hat. The racial aspect is undeniable. If you want to deny that aspect of the story, then I have to wonder why.

    And I don't like it when the news media is attacked for trying to do their jobs. It's just one more slip on the slope that leads to a totalitarian state. KENS 5 is just trying to report a story with a lot of controversial aspects to it. Good for them, and bad for anybody who's trying to discredit them.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Wow, you really go out attacking people whose views you don t approve of?

    You really go out attacking straw men all that often?

    Someone carrying a "nazi flag" would get your baseball bat in their face. Where is the strawman?
  • Posts: 628
    Now that the suspect has been identified and arrested, it's clear that there is a racial aspect to this story. Hispanic man in Texas. White kids. MAGA hat. The racial aspect is undeniable. If you want to deny that aspect of the story, then I have to wonder why.

    Where did I deny the racial aspect of the story?
    And I don't like it when the news media is attacked for trying to do their jobs. It's just one more slip on the slope that leads to a totalitarian state. KENS 5 is just trying to report a story with a lot of controversial aspects to it. Good for them, and bad for anybody who's trying to discredit them.

    I never attacked them. I questioned the validity of the witness's statement as presented in the article and was not surprised to see that the entire quote had since been taken down.

    No one was trying to discredit them. They've discredited themselves.

  • edited July 2018 Posts: 3,566
    Wow, you really go out attacking people whose views you don t approve of?

    You really go out attacking straw men all that often?

    Someone carrying a "nazi flag" would get your baseball bat in their face. Where is the strawman?

    Naziism is not a legitimate political viewpoint. The whole world fought a war over this issue a few decades back, you may have heard of it. Lots of people died to bury that cursed ideology. Let's not forget that salient point, okay? Please acknowledge that the same passage you're referencing out of context also mentions me participating in reasoned dialogue, the electoral process, and PEACEFUL protest. But Nazis? Violence is the only language they speak, I'll answer them in their own tongue.
This discussion has been closed.