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I believe that having the support of the broader community who do not subscribe to violence is important in order to apprehend (or otherwise stop) those who are intent on causing mayhem.
I'm not advocating for 'community cohesion' at all costs. I'm just saying that there is no evidence (as far as I'm aware) to support the idea that the majority of muslims support violence. To suggest otherwise is to potentially subscribe to another fairy tale (even if not a religious one).
I have muslim friends who are quite devout from what I can tell. I've personally never seen them flog their wives. In fact, some of them have highly educated wives (in the medical field no less), who appear to control and drive the conversation whenever I visit.
I'm against faith based schools as a matter of principle. Any faith based school for that matter.
Fine by me. If I ran my own company I would immediately shred any CV from a job applicant that mentioned they had a strong faith on the grounds they are out of their tree. The sooner religion is relegated to something you have the freedom to do in the privacy of your own home but don't admit to in public the better.
Anyway the disgustingly privileged role religion is granted aside why are we so keen to engage with the 'Muslim community' and grant it absolution from any link with these crimes? These men were all part of the 'community', all attended mosques and prayer groups in the 'community' but then overnight they suddenly have no links to the 'community' whatsoever?
It strikes me the 'community' is like a pyramid. For every one terrorist you have 10 wannabe terrorists, 100 genuine sympathisers, 1000 apologists, 10,000 people who 'can understand why he did it' and 100,000 peace loving Muslims who hold no truck with it at all.
But to claim these people exist in total isolation from the 'community' is as disingenuous as it is delusional.
If they were Jeffery Dahmer type serial killers then they could exist in isolation but when the reason they are killing themselves for places such as Helmand and Raqqa that would be utterly random to them without the umbilical cord of Islam then to state there is no causal link at all with the 'religion of peace' is utter gibberish.
If it was just disgust at the West bombing people in the Middle East then lefty students would be blowing themselves up too. If it was a normal thing to kill people because someone had invaded your country (despite the fact none of the terrorists have had their countries invaded since they all come from the UK) then where are all the Ukrainians blowing themselves up in Moscow?
I keep hearing from the government, the Muslim leaders and people here that terrorism has no link to the faith of Islam yet at every turn there is evidence that points that it does.
To balance this, obvioulsy I am not saying that every Muslim in the UK is guilty etc but there are deep cultural trends that need to be addressed and we are simply failing to "grasp the nettle"
That doesn't mean I subscribe to religion getting any preferred treatment. I'm actually completely in favour of policies that relegate religion to a private matter. Like you, I think the sooner that happens, the better we will all be. I don't believe in policies which grant official credibility to religious groups or those who preach organized dogma (from any religion).
I never said that the would be 'criminals' exist in isolation from the community. They are indeed a part of their religious community, as much as they are a part of their geographic community. I'm saying that in order to practically apprehend (or otherwise stop) them you need to engage that community. Not isolate and ostracize it. To think that you can do otherwise is just not practical. Governments have not gone about that properly. They may have had good intentions, but their execution has been horrid.
I've described my preventative proposals in previous posts in this thread. I'm sure many religious types will take issue with my suggestions.
But the isolation comes from within IMHO, the guy from Manchester, his mum and dad were welcomed with open arms by the UK, provided with NHS cover and schooling for his children, access to libraries, the opportunity to mix and learn from other cultures etc etc. The UK and Europe has proved its generousity time and time again. We have "done our bit", Muslim society must take responsibility for isolating itself. It speaks volumes that, after all we have expiereinced, we (or some liberals) are the ones who worry about what we do to isolate and ostracize. We still look at ourselves for being (or potentially) being at fault.
Having said that, what's done is done. One shouldn't target the religion now, but rather should find ways to make the community see that eliminating this vermin is in their best interests. They have to be the 'eyes and ears' to identify future jihadis as they are being indoctrinated. There are always clues and those closest to the would be perpetrator/s see it first. How can they be encouraged to assist law enforcement? This is the challenge. They can be encouraged through sticks and carrots. Some behavioural scientists (preferably even some Muslim ones) should get involved in devising incentives to alter behaviour from within.
"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing... but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"
Interesting to say the least ...
Again, we are back to the pattern that its up to us. We have to use carrot or stick? Too much carrot? Our fault. Too much stick? our fault. Treating the muslim community like a child who is not doing its homework and the responsibility is with the parents to get results.
Rather than carrot or stick, we should be asking why either are even required.
As I've said, when attempting to change attitudes, I believe one should rely on behavioural science and mechanisms to change psychology from within. It's not an easy process, but I am of the view that a cooperative bottom up approach is far better than a top down antagonistic one.
Just like with any marketing type activity, the idea is to put in place mechanisms to encourage someone to pick up the phone. To actively solicit a 'call to action'. To 'nudge', as Richard Thaler puts it.
"mechanisms to encourage someone to pick up the phone" clearly is trying to deal with an effect. The fact that we need additional mechanisms (I agree , we do) is an admission that there are cultural issues within the Islamic communithy re their relationship with either the Police or the wider UK establishment (or both). Considering whats potentially at stake (the lives of children) its staggering that we are even having this debate and discussing what additional "carrots" are required.
Personally, I am far more interested in how we got here and how we can get to a sitation where everyone just phones the police without additional mechanisms.
That's exactly why I said you should stop the foreign religious influence. Why do we accept preachers in mosques who proclaim a law that's contradictory to the ones we have? Where do you think (whatever their background) these guys get their ideas from? If you go on the internet and look at what happens in the middle east you'll get angry to say the least. If you're told by some monkey from the desert this isbacause of 'the Western imperialism' which is supposedly 'the devil itself' and should be exterminated, you're willing to help out in that cause. It's not that difficult to indoctrinate. So why oh why do Western countries still allow this to happen?
I wasn't clear enough in what I menat with background. I don't mean the background of the people themselves, but their medeaval understanding of the religious books. And those who listen to people paid by SA are inclined to fight to the death for an islamic world dominance. Those listening to imams from Turkey get the Turkish Nationalistic version, which strives to a new ottoman empire under Erdogan.
AFAK the Danes already have a rule in place that religious preachers should come from Denmark and should be educated there as well. They haven't had such an attack at all.
In the menatime:
http://edition.cnn.com/2017/05/31/asia/kabul-explosion-hits-diplomatic-area/index.html
80 dead, 335 wounded in Kabul...
If these terrorist atrocities were committed by far right activists rather than people attributing it to a religion would the government be engaging with the far right 'community' (some are proscribed no doubt but the likes of the BNP and EDL are perfectly legal entities) to point out that this was just some 'extremists' who had been 'radicalised'?
Are we seriously suggesting we are happy to live in a society where we need to pay people to report crimes to the police?
Completely agree. Like you say, a majority have no affiliation, allegiance, or even knowledge, but to say there is literally no connection is a joke. The idea this is to do with foreign policy is laughable. Normal human beings don't blow themselves up. Period.
That also means defining it clearly and unreservedly (without demeaning those who don't partake in such activity) and showing clearly how not attacking it more forcefully now will result in a less free society tomorrow. It's a multi-pronged, multi-year approach, and must involve all levels of government and local communities. If they don't willingly participate and engage, then we can talk about isolating certain quadrants or diverting more security forces there. There have to be leaders that are accountable to the greater society from each mosque and neighbourhood. They can be nominated from within, or can come forward willingly. Some loss of freedom is required in order to combat this properly, and communities have to be made to understand that. Either take the short term pain now, or more pain is coming in the future for the greater good.
A culture change in the way this is handled is required.
Sadly, it also means that little girls won't be able to go naively to concerts any more without constantly looking over their shoulders & being vigilant. That is a price to pay for living in a free & democratic society which is under attack.
Pay, incentivise, nudge: we're just arguing about semantics. The bottom line is you're saying one section of society should be offered special treatment to abide by rules which the rest of us are expected to abide by. Sorry but that sticks in my craw somewhat. We shouldn't have to be begging alleged British citizens to help keep the country safe.
I think there are many in the community who would like the filth eradicated. We have to engage them and get them more involved in the process. Make them not look the other way but be more vigilant about anything they find suspicious. We know now that clues exist. Sometimes it's people who've changed suddenly, or made incendiary comments, or who've had asylum applications denied, had prior minor violent run ins etc. etc..
As I've said before we need to get this threat in perspective and see it for what it is.
Right now D Trump represents a bigger existential threat to Western civilisation than pathetic teen murderers.
Stop building the little sh*t up into something he wasn't.
The proportion of Muslims in the UK population is 1 in 20 so if your assertion that these people are just 'pathetic teen murderers' and the fact they happened to Muslim is inconsequential you would expect terrorist acts to be spread over the population equally wouldn't you?
If we just take the most significant/newsworthy attacks (7/7, Glasgow Airport, Lee Rigby, Westminster, Manchester) that would mean we'd expect to see 95 attacks of similar severity if the distribution is equal for the population as a whole.
I seem to have missed all those news reports.
The 'they're just losers' argument doesn't add up I'm afraid because there are losers in all walks of life but it's only the Islamic ones that blow themselves up. Or perhaps we are just living through a freak statistical blip and the next 95 attacks will not be by Muslims and bring the figures into line with what we might expect with an even distribution?
@TheWizardOfIce you have a brilliant mind but like so many on the alt right you are seduced by the simplistic idiocies of people like Trump and Farage.
When you choose to return to the world of reality please take the time to look up what the real experts have to say on these issues.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/former-mi5-chief-demolishes-blairs-defence-of-the-iraq-war-2031289.html
These 'experts' haven't solved anything ,so why criticise @TheWizardOfIce ...I cant see anything wrong with his opinion here ....stop defending these people,its what they rely on and the same thing happens EVERY time,its like a loop.
We die,we defend them...if you know the answers then you and the 'experts' can solve it ?? no ?
Its not overreacting ,its a case of these cowards are killing children and live and are building mosques like mad in all our countries and all we do is sit here and say the same things until the next time.
Come on, that's an easy question. Follow the money. We'll start where this bloke got his ideas from-> the mosque.
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/adam-deen/saudi-funded-mosques_b_16825640.html
That's paid for by SA's oil dollars, coming from... the west. @RC7 say again this has nothing to do with foreign policy?
So instead of banning these mosqies and preachers, you want more cameras, more surveillance. Nine-eyes perhaps?
I wonder if all those people who were caught up in terrorist attacks are 'overreacting'? I wonder if it is 'overreacting' to state that anyone who wishes to play the terrorists at their own game must be ideologically linked in some way to Trump/Farage /LePenn etc?
It would appear that some here wish us to adopt the French government mantra, terrorism is here, you'd better get used to it. We cannot address the fundamentals of the issue because it raises the (whispers) race word. Also I see the usual tactic employed whenever anyone wishes to come up with a solution - ignoring most of what is being said, turning the subject away from targeting terrorists to accusations of targeting the Muslim population in general. Heaven forfend that we actually acknowledge that these people are at war with us (the terrorist - not the UK Muslim population at large), let's continue to hand wring and come up with theories which turn the spotlight away from the truth.
BTW I do agree about the Saudis. They have have long been playing a game all of their own.