CLOSED

12526283031164

Comments

  • Posts: 4,615
    "they can soon separate the wheat from the chaff." People can be foregiven for thinking that, given what we know, that the wheat was not seperated from the chaff in this case.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    Please don't twist my words. With that phrase I was generalising, as well you know it, and not commenting on this specific case.

  • Posts: 4,615
    It has to start somewhere......

  • Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    This joker was talking about possibly killing his mother for Allah in front of children in a park? I wonder what she thinks of him now.

    They regard women as barely human so killing them means nothing
  • Posts: 11,425
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    edited June 2017 Posts: 1,053
    Benny wrote: »

    Thanks for bringing this to my attention. If the figure quoted is accurate, I am surprised to learn of the cost. Six billion which could be used to transform our social care system.

    Much to the chagrin of the handwringers/apologists here, I've been saying this all along. The only way we can effectively deal with the enemy within is to remove them from society. "WHAT ABOUT THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS?" I hear the handwringers/apologists cry. Personally I don't give a crap, I do however care about the human rights of ordinary law abiding citizens to be able to exercise their right to go about their business free from fear of attack.

    Cue the apologist/handwringing backlash..............

    BTW I've signed the petition. Not that it will make any difference.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    edited June 2017 Posts: 1,053
  • Posts: 4,619
    bondjames wrote: »
    Cartoons%20Insult_gif.jpg

    Similarly:
    xQOPzpv.jpg

    We're not going to solve the problem while this continues on both sides.
    False equivalence. A man following the set of beliefs called islam not caring about people being killed in the name of the set of beliefs he follows, while being outraged about a cartoon making fun of his set of beliefs VS somone who simply cares more about the death of people geographically close to him, than the death of people geographically far away (just like we all would do).
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,117
    Seems more chaff than wheat to me
    patb wrote: »
    It has to start somewhere......


    Disgusting.

    'They teach national curriculum science which is supplemented by religious lessons which they control and are not subject to Ofsted inspection'.

    If I start a Nazi school and based on my 'beliefs' I teach national curriculum history about the war and the Holocaust but supplement it by 'religious' teaching that there's an alternative point of view, that we in this school subscribe to, that the Jews had it coming, the government would idly sit by and let me poison young minds would it?

    'You think the Koran is a good source of scientific information yes? (deadpan) And you're the one who wants to be a doctor?' You've got to love dear old Dicky D!
    Getafix wrote: »

    It would be nice if one of the candidates would actually come out and put a price on how much petrol will go up if we cut all ties with Saudi. But given weapons is one of our only exports can we actually afford to take the moral high ground? Is cutting Saudi loose going to make that much of a difference anyway given they are all born here?
    stag wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »

    Thanks for bringing this to my attention. If the figure quoted is accurate, I am surprised to learn of the cost. Six billion which could be used to transform our social care system.

    Much to the chagrin of the handwringers/apologists here, I've been saying this all along. The only way we can effectively deal with the enemy within is to remove them from society. "WHAT ABOUT THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS?" I hear the handwringers/apologists cry. Personally I don't give a crap, I do however care about the human rights of ordinary law abiding citizens to be able to exercise their right to go about their business free from fear of attack.

    Cue the apologist/handwringing backlash..............

    BTW I've signed the petition. Not that it will make any difference.

    You're right the bleating liberal brigade won't let this come to anything because they'd happily sacrifice their own children to keep the multicultural experiment stumbling along.

    Here's an idea if people aren't keen on interment or deportation - how about the peace loving Muslim community we keep hearing about stump up the cost of surveillance on all these jihadists that happily come back from Syria and sit happily plotting with their mates? Be a nice show of good faith if they volunteered actually. Why should the rest of us foot the bill?

    Start hitting people in the pocket and see how long the 'community' are happy to continue turning a blind eye.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    I regard those cartoons as apologists for Terrorists, and those who post them also
    As Apologists . ISIS use the west's intervention as an excuse for attacks at the same time
    Using when the west does not intervene as an excuse to attack. Also they deliberately
    Target civilians.
  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    If I start a Nazi school and based on my 'beliefs' I teach national curriculum history about the war and the Holocaust but supplement it by 'religious' teaching that there's an alternative point of view, that we in this school subscribe to, that the Jews had it coming, the government would idly sit by and let me poison young minds would it?

    If the students were from some ethnic minority group, then probably it would not only be allowed but financed by central government! IMHO there is little difference between Nazi and Islamic fanatics, they both subscribe to twisted ideologies, practice intolerance, hate and violence. Whatever hue, fanatics cannot be defended. The truth is we not only allow fanatisism to be preached/taught, in many instances we actively encourage it.

    Here's an idea if people aren't keen on interment or deportation - how about the peace loving Muslim community we keep hearing about stump up the cost of surveillance on all these jihadists that happily come back from Syria and sit happily plotting with their mates? Be a nice show of good faith if they volunteered actually. Why should the rest of us foot the bill?

    Start hitting people in the pocket and see how long the 'community' are happy to continue turning a blind eye.

    Good idea!


  • stagstag In the thick of it!
    Posts: 1,053
    I regard those cartoons as apologists for Terrorists, and those who post them also
    As Apologists . ISIS use the west's intervention as an excuse for attacks at the same time
    Using when the west does not intervene as an excuse to attack. Also they deliberately
    Target civilians.

    Agreed. It seems we are not only fighting terrorism, but those who indirectly and unwittingly support it!
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Cartoons%20Insult_gif.jpg

    Similarly:
    xQOPzpv.jpg

    We're not going to solve the problem while this continues on both sides.
    False equivalence. A man following the set of beliefs called islam not caring about people being killed in the name of the set of beliefs he follows, while being outraged about a cartoon making fun of his set of beliefs VS somone who simply cares more about the death of people geographically close to him, than the death of people geographically far away (just like we all would do).
    If and when there are explosions in Israel (far away) we are asked to care, aren't we? This has less to do with geographical differences (Paris is across the pond after all) and more to do with how we choose to sympathize with various cultures more so than others. Part of that is on account of how we are manipulated (and what is shown - or not shown- on our tv screens in terms of atrocities committed by our own overseas in the name of democracy). When the explosions occurred in Russia earlier this year, I didn't see too much concern here. Why? Didn't the Russians help us to win WW2? Are they not worthy of sympathy? Or are all Russians bad now?

    Human life is precious no matter where it is, and no matter what religion it subscribes to (or doesn't). Keep in mind that many don't get to choose the life they have, unlike us in the privileged west. Until that basic level of respect for all human life and dignity becomes ingrained in every society (politicians as well as the mass public), then culture wars are inevitable. That is a feeding (and breeding) ground for the kind of vermin that perpetuated these acts.

    Ultimately what kind of society does one want? A liberal, progressive one, or a conservative, cautious one?
    patb wrote: »
    He raised an ISIS flag in the park? I hope he was at least locked up for a while. If not, the laws should be changed to allow incarceration on sight for such an indiscretion.

    Btw: Is there some way to electronically tag people who have run ins like this? I.e. have them wear a monitor of sorts for a certain period of time. Could that not ease the burden on law enforcement's ability to know where they are at least? Plus it would make life a little more difficult for them, and I'm all for that. Surely the technology is there to enable this these days.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,425
    Seems more chaff than wheat to me
    patb wrote: »
    It has to start somewhere......


    Disgusting.

    'They teach national curriculum science which is supplemented by religious lessons which they control and are not subject to Ofsted inspection'.

    If I start a Nazi school and based on my 'beliefs' I teach national curriculum history about the war and the Holocaust but supplement it by 'religious' teaching that there's an alternative point of view, that we in this school subscribe to, that the Jews had it coming, the government would idly sit by and let me poison young minds would it?

    'You think the Koran is a good source of scientific information yes? (deadpan) And you're the one who wants to be a doctor?' You've got to love dear old Dicky D!
    Getafix wrote: »

    It would be nice if one of the candidates would actually come out and put a price on how much petrol will go up if we cut all ties with Saudi. But given weapons is one of our only exports can we actually afford to take the moral high ground? Is cutting Saudi loose going to make that much of a difference anyway given they are all born here?
    stag wrote: »
    Benny wrote: »

    Thanks for bringing this to my attention. If the figure quoted is accurate, I am surprised to learn of the cost. Six billion which could be used to transform our social care system.

    Much to the chagrin of the handwringers/apologists here, I've been saying this all along. The only way we can effectively deal with the enemy within is to remove them from society. "WHAT ABOUT THEIR HUMAN RIGHTS?" I hear the handwringers/apologists cry. Personally I don't give a crap, I do however care about the human rights of ordinary law abiding citizens to be able to exercise their right to go about their business free from fear of attack.

    Cue the apologist/handwringing backlash..............

    BTW I've signed the petition. Not that it will make any difference.

    You're right the bleating liberal brigade won't let this come to anything because they'd happily sacrifice their own children to keep the multicultural experiment stumbling along.

    Here's an idea if people aren't keen on interment or deportation - how about the peace loving Muslim community we keep hearing about stump up the cost of surveillance on all these jihadists that happily come back from Syria and sit happily plotting with their mates? Be a nice show of good faith if they volunteered actually. Why should the rest of us foot the bill?

    Start hitting people in the pocket and see how long the 'community' are happy to continue turning a blind eye.

    I guess it depends what approach we want to take. If we want to stamp out Islamism long term, then we need long term strategies, which must include confronting and cutting off the funding for extremist teaching. The Wahabist and Salafist schools of Islam - basically Saudi Islam - are the cess pit from which these nut jobs spring. Without it, they wouldn't exist.

    For centuries Islam existed as a largely moderate (if culturally retarded) religion in large swathes of the world where it existed. There was no homogeneous 'Islam' - and still isn't really. But over the last 50 years (probably longer) the Saudis have been pumping their oil money into spreading their particularly special blend on bonkers Islam across the globe. The impact has been very noticeable all over the Sunni Islamic world. In places like Bangladesh 50 years ago you'd have never seen a middle class Muslim woman wearing a hijab of the full ninja outfit. Now it's more and more common. Ordinary moderate Muslims in places like Bangladesh are under assault from this wave of well-funded extremist Islam, back by the Saudis and other dodgy Arab states.

    Problem is that if we get rid of the Saudi royal family, the chances are we will get something even worse in its place.

    And funnily enough the jihadis actually hate the Saudi royal family more than we do.
  • Posts: 4,615
    I think May will regret "enough is enough" as it clearly implies that both the situation has got worse and that previous actions have not worked. That would be fine if she was fresh on the scene but she was in charge in national security since 2010. She has, in fact, openly admitted that her policies/actions have failed.

    If she was confident in existing policies , then no changes were needed. The issue with the guy in the park shows that these guys are hardly deep under cover and the threat was literally in front of us and broadcast on TV documentaries.

    Many people wanted more serious action years ago and they have proved to be right and Mays policies proved to be ineffective.

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    bondjames wrote: »

    Human life is precious no matter where it is, and no matter what religion it subscribes to (or doesn't). Keep in mind that many don't get to choose the life they have, unlike us in the privileged west. Until that basic level of respect for all human life and dignity becomes ingrained in every society (politicians as well as the mass public), then culture wars are inevitable. That is a feeding (and breeding) ground for the kind of vermin that perpetuated these acts.

    Ultimately what kind of society does one want? A liberal, progressive one, or a conservative, cautious one?

    As many Muslims in these countries are killed by local suicide bombers than our drone strikes. They can't get enough of it. But I suppose that's all our fault in some way too.

    And even if I give you a free pass on the 'we brought it all on ourselves for bombing these countries' hypothesis I'll ask the question again:

    What link apart from Islam does a teenager born in Jamaica and brought up in the UK have to some shit town being bombed in Syria?

    By the same rationale that makes Muslims here blow themselves up why aren't Catholics blowing themselves up over Britain's imperialistic occupation of the Falklands or Gibraltar?

    Islamic culture seems to be inherently violent and backwards but everyone wants to pretend it can happily coexist with western culture when the truth is they are polar opposites.
    bondjames wrote: »
    He raised an ISIS flag in the park? I hope he was at least locked up for a while. If not, the laws should be changed to allow incarceration on sight for such an indiscretion.

    Doubt he even got a caution. He's just exercising his right to free speech innit? Why don't bring in the same draconian punishments for association with ISIS as we have for paedos? If the police find one video or picture on your computer it doesn't matter the reason - you're going down and on a register for life?
    bondjames wrote: »
    Btw: Is there some way to electronically tag people who have run ins like this? I.e. have them wear a monitor of sorts for a certain period of time. Could that not ease the burden on law enforcement's ability to know where they are at least? Plus it would make life a little more difficult for them, and I'm all for that. Surely the technology is there to enable this these days.

    Smart blood.

    Or brand their foreheads. Whichever is cheaper for the taxpayer.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    patb wrote: »
    It has to start somewhere......


    I was saying the other day, I'd ban faith schools, full stop. No matter the religion, it has no place in the education system imo, none whatsoever. If your parents are determined to feed you this outdated horse shit, so be it, but the state should not be entertaining this nonsense in 2017, quite frankly.

    Sub it out and replace it with Mental Health education. If Physical education has a place on the curriculum the same should be true of mental health studies. I'm sick to the back teeth of reading about these fairy stories when we have a serious mental health epidemic.

    And for the record, before some apologist attempts to twist my words - I'm not saying this is how terrorism begins, or even linking the two - what I'm saying is let's get to a point where we converse and interact with each other on a truly humane level. Let's phase out this divisive unnecessary dogma, that creates boundaries and enslaves the mind.

    Let's stop normalising bullshit and allowing patronising arseholes to preach the 'only truth', in schools, no less.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Getafix wrote: »

    And funnily enough the jihadis actually hate the Saudi royal family more than we do.

    Some do, because they are in bed with the Americans.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 4,615
    Video of the arrest is on youtube, one of the group is arrested (why not the whole group?) and his attitude to the Police and the nation is all too clear as is his open anger and temper. I dont know what happened after the arrest.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    RC7 wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    It has to start somewhere......


    I was saying the other day, I'd ban faith schools, full stop. No matter the religion, it has no place in the education system imo, none whatsoever. If your parents are determined to feed you this outdated horse shit, so be it, but the state should not be entertaining this nonsense in 2017, quite frankly.

    Sub it out and replace it with Mental Health education. If Physical education has a place on the curriculum the same should be true of mental health studies. I'm sick to the back teeth of reading about these fairy stories when we have a serious mental health epidemic.

    And for the record, before some apologist attempts to twist my words - I'm not saying this is how terrorism begins, or even linking the two - what I'm saying is let's get to a point where we converse and interact with each other on a truly humane level. Let's phase out this divisive unnecessary dogma, that creates boundaries and enslaves the mind.

    Let's stop normalising bullshit and allowing patronising arseholes to preach the 'only truth', in schools, no less.

    Very well said Sir.

    It's actually time to go a step further and, as Dawkins suggests, actually call it child abuse to feed this bullshit to your child.

    If when someone turns 18 they want to sign up for this infantile drivel then fair enough, but I bet you'd find those who were educated properly and weren't indoctrinated when toddlers who then got to 18 and decided to take up religion would be less than 1%.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »

    Human life is precious no matter where it is, and no matter what religion it subscribes to (or doesn't). Keep in mind that many don't get to choose the life they have, unlike us in the privileged west. Until that basic level of respect for all human life and dignity becomes ingrained in every society (politicians as well as the mass public), then culture wars are inevitable. That is a feeding (and breeding) ground for the kind of vermin that perpetuated these acts.

    Ultimately what kind of society does one want? A liberal, progressive one, or a conservative, cautious one?

    As many Muslims in these countries are killed by local suicide bombers than our drone strikes. They can't get enough of it. But I suppose that's all our fault in some way too.

    And even if I give you a free pass on the 'we brought it all on ourselves for bombing these countries' hypothesis I'll ask the question again:

    What link apart from Islam does a teenager born in Jamaica and brought up in the UK have to some shit town being bombed in Syria?

    By the same rationale that makes Muslims here blow themselves up why aren't Catholics blowing themselves up over Britain's imperialistic occupation of the Falklands or Gibraltar?

    Islamic culture seems to be inherently violent and backwards but everyone wants to pretend it can happily coexist with western culture when the truth is they are polar opposites.
    Re: the suicide bombings at home, yes indeed there is a war within Islam as well. It's been going on for ages. However, I'm not aware of how many suicide bombings there were prior to the Iraq invasion in comparison to afterwards. I suspect there were far fewer, and that's probably because Hussein kept everyone in check with his strong arm controls. So yes, indirectly the failed Iraq invasion probably had an impact on the number of these bombings. Don't destabilize something without having a viable alternative is my view.

    The link between a Jamaican born Muslim and a 'shit town' in Syria is as much a cultural as it is a religious one. The same link that exists when people get up in arms about a bombing in Paris. As per my earlier post, until we see all lives as precious and sacrosanct things will get worse before they get better. We should know better even if they don't. I have heard comments that these people blow themselves up 'in the name of Islam'. That's true, and it's a religious rallying cry. Just like we blow people up 'in the name of democracy'. That makes it alright on our end I suppose. Why are we surprised then that they don't trust democracy? When the west preaches it out of one orifice and then cozies up to unelected sheikhs who repress their population? The hypocrisy was always there, but the Iraq and Afghanistan wars appear to have been the tipping point, which is why those who perpetrated it should be locked up and stripped of their pensions in my view.
    ---

    As I've said before, I have Muslim work colleagues and clients who are quite educated (some in the medical profession), intelligent, rational and peace loving. They appear quite devout, but yet their 'women' are as much in charge when I'm around as other cultures.

    Wives wear the Hijab, and not the Burka or Niqab. They appear just like other conservative religious types to me.

    One thing I have noticed however is that they do have a natural cultural affinity with other Muslims (which is to be expected, I suppose). That doesn't mean they want to blow people up though.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 4,615
    There are big issues to discuss like faith schools and selling arms to Saudi etc,
    but when you look at the mainstream media, they refuse to deal with the major, long term issues and focus on short term stuff which IMHO wont make any genuine difference. Sadly, I cant see any sign of this recent attack being a "game changer"



  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »

    Human life is precious no matter where it is, and no matter what religion it subscribes to (or doesn't). Keep in mind that many don't get to choose the life they have, unlike us in the privileged west. Until that basic level of respect for all human life and dignity becomes ingrained in every society (politicians as well as the mass public), then culture wars are inevitable. That is a feeding (and breeding) ground for the kind of vermin that perpetuated these acts.

    Ultimately what kind of society does one want? A liberal, progressive one, or a conservative, cautious one?

    As many Muslims in these countries are killed by local suicide bombers than our drone strikes. They can't get enough of it. But I suppose that's all our fault in some way too.

    And even if I give you a free pass on the 'we brought it all on ourselves for bombing these countries' hypothesis I'll ask the question again:

    What link apart from Islam does a teenager born in Jamaica and brought up in the UK have to some shit town being bombed in Syria?

    By the same rationale that makes Muslims here blow themselves up why aren't Catholics blowing themselves up over Britain's imperialistic occupation of the Falklands or Gibraltar?

    Islamic culture seems to be inherently violent and backwards but everyone wants to pretend it can happily coexist with western culture when the truth is they are polar opposites.
    bondjames wrote: »
    He raised an ISIS flag in the park? I hope he was at least locked up for a while. If not, the laws should be changed to allow incarceration on sight for such an indiscretion.

    Doubt he even got a caution. He's just exercising his right to free speech innit? Why don't bring in the same draconian punishments for association with ISIS as we have for paedos? If the police find one video or picture on your computer it doesn't matter the reason - you're going down and on a register for life?
    bondjames wrote: »
    Btw: Is there some way to electronically tag people who have run ins like this? I.e. have them wear a monitor of sorts for a certain period of time. Could that not ease the burden on law enforcement's ability to know where they are at least? Plus it would make life a little more difficult for them, and I'm all for that. Surely the technology is there to enable this these days.

    Smart blood.

    Or brand their foreheads. Whichever is cheaper for the taxpayer.

    But if we're seriously talking about whose the most violent the west wins hands down. Look at our history. It's only the EU that's stopped us slitting each others throats for the last few decades. The west industrialised violence and spread it around the world.

    Frankly three nutters in a white van equals total amateurs compared to what we've done to each other and the rest of the world over the years.

    It's got nothing to do with justifying what these arse wipes did. But if you seriously think the west really speaks from a position of moral authority I think it's self delusion.

    We've murdered, tortured, oppressed and persecuted better than any other 'civilisation' going. As long as we insist on pretending that acts like the invasion of Iraq was not a deeply, profoundly morally wrong thing to have done, then we are kidding ourselves and justifiably seen as total hypocrites by large swathes of the world.

    Western secular liberal culture has perpetrated countless wars, overthrown democratic regimes, all in the pursuit of its own commercial self interest. It's a pretty atrocious record but try and defend it by all means.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Bloody hell jihadi Getafix ! I'm guessing you can justify the Nazi atrocities as well.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Jeremy Corbyn couldn't have said it better!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »

    We've murdered, tortured, oppressed and persecuted better than any other 'civilisation' going. As long as we insist on pretending that acts like the invasion of Iraq was not a deeply, profoundly morally wrong thing to have done, then we are kidding ourselves and justifiably seen as total hypocrites by large swathes of the world.

    Western secular liberal culture has perpetrated countless wars, overthrown democratic regimes, all in the pursuit of its own commercial self interest. It's a pretty atrocious record but try and defend it by all means.

    So why are you still here then? Why don't you sell all your possessions and go and dig wells in Africa if it troubles you so deeply?

    I honestly don't know what's worse the terrorists or bleeding heart liberals who loathe and detest everthing about Western culture except their iPhone, being no more than 500m from a Costa Coffee at all times and not dying of dysentery.

    If that's the way you really feel about the west, whose bosom you happily suckle from on a daily basis, why don't you get yourself over to Syria and sign up mate?
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 4,615
    Its called free speech, people are allowed to point out the historical imperfections of the west without being told to leave the country. Its the self critique/amalysis that helps us improve and evolve.

    And if people want to live in a culture where its universally praised and its faults are not mentioned/recognised/debated/confronted, then North Korea would seem an option?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Crap can be free speech too though, mind. People are free to say or write literally anything, all the while subject of course to defamation laws.
This discussion has been closed.