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  • Posts: 11,425
    Yes, overt political stuff in Bond is a bad idea. Look how the Muhajadeen stuff has dated in TLD.

    The clever thing about most of the Cold War Bond films is the way the Soviets are always quite sympathetically portrayed - often cooperating eventually in order to beat the REAL baddies.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    https://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article165905618/We-got-a-fuckin-problem.html?wtmc=socialmedia.facebook.shared.web

    So sorry, Gustav. This is from a "real" news outlet. Again.

    But feel free to overlook it. Again.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »

    I'm slightly concerned that you seem to be seriously suggesting people see Bond as a lifestyle guide - I thought that was something most of us gave up around the age of 12.

    Speak for yourself mate. It's only now that I can afford and properly appreciate the Bondian lifestyle like fine champagne, caviar, hotels, cars etc that I dreamed of when I was 12.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,425
    Getafix wrote: »

    I'm slightly concerned that you seem to be seriously suggesting people see Bond as a lifestyle guide - I thought that was something most of us gave up around the age of 12.

    Speak for yourself mate. It's only now that I can afford and properly appreciate the Bondian lifestyle like fine champagne, caviar, hotels, cars etc that I dreamed of when I was 12.

    I think you missed my point. 12 was when I decided I was going to stop mimicking Bond and actually BE Bond.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    Getafix wrote: »
    I'm sorry @TheWizardOfIce but you make an absolutely absurd point. As if the Queen can't enjoy watching Corrie because it's full of oiks.

    In a free society thank goodness we get our entertainment from wherever we please.

    Most of us are capable of making distinctions between reality and Hollywood and only the most ideologically blinkered allow their politics to become the only prism through which they view film, literature, life.

    Plenty of lefties like Bond. Is that such a revelation or surprise? The film series definitely wouldn't have survived as long as it has if it only appealed to imperialists and racists.

    It's like saying you can't be on the political right and enjoy a film about Robin Hood because how could a conservative possibly tolerate a fictional character who steals from the rich to give to the poor?!

    I'm sorry but your argument must be near the top of the list for daftest comment of the week.

    Read this if you want to see how stupid your argument sounds put from the other political perspective.

    https://www.theguardian.com/music/2008/mar/18/popandrock.politicsandthearts

    That's funny. I was at a Smiths concert at Kilburn in 1986 and was accosted by three student types all wearing Billy Bragg t shirts.

    They asked me why I was at a Smiths concert if I wasn't a 'socialist...'!!!!!

    Bit puzzling since The Smiths were never really an overly political band.

    Back then I was a skinny, shy, socially inept loner, so I think I had much more affinity for The Smiths than they ever did..!
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    Getafix wrote: »

    This man needs a medal and a pension for the rest of his life! Hero of the finest sort!
  • Posts: 11,425
    Exactly what i thought. He's clearly quite severely injured and probably will never 100% recover. I hope this country treats him properly.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    My point? My point is stop throwing around one sided labels, as you did in your initial post which I called you out on.

    It doesn't help matters, and only creates further divisions.

    I know you lean left. I've seen it in your posts. No problem with that and it doesn't mean we can't have a debate on specific matters. I just dislike categorizations and labeling which demonize entire portions of the electorate or one side of the political spectrum. It's disingenuous.

    Things are never that simple. Both sides have valid points and neither you nor I have the full facts with which to debate the benefits or costs of the American healthcare system. There are other discussion points where the left can't be so readily defended.

    I only called you out on it because I respect your view on many matters and think you're a rational sort. I wouldn't have bothered with others who I know can't be reasoned with.

    I think you're losing your rag just for the sake of it. Which is to be fair what many people use the Internet for.

    This is what I said:

    "That equating the appreciation, enjoyment or performance of a dramatic artwork with any particular political tendency or ideology is plain daft. It's the kind of simplistic idiocy you'd expect from people like ISIS, the hard right of the Republican Party or a Stalinist."

    Where are the 'one sided labels'?

    I didn't realise 'the hard right of the Republican Party' even was a label. Not one I've heard before anyway. And explicitly not one sided as I've expressly acknowledged gradations within the party.

    Is this just another of your imaginary delusions? Or perhaps you're standing up for the rights of Islamists and hard leftists not to be typecast.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited June 2017 Posts: 8,255
    bondjames wrote: »
    Getafix wrote: »
    I'd be here all day if I listed all the idiots out there. What is a Stalinist if not a hard leftist?
    True, but singling out lunatic extremists in one of the major American political parties (the one that gets all the hate) at the expense of the other (who are just as bad with their imaginary delusions, but get none of the criticism due to their progressive social values) seemed worthy of a special call out.

    Not to be the leftist propaganda fan or anything, but IMO, you reap what you sow. There has been one party, the last 20 years in the USA, that's been consistently falsely smearing the opposition, lying, and putting fear and hate agianst 'the other party' into the American electorate. It's been cheating (Florida, Bush) and adjusting the rules (districts) to come out on top. And now this party has brought foreward a president who's been doing the same thing all his life. He's been proven wrong time and time again. If he's asked a difficult question by a reporter he doesn't answer it, he resorts to personal attacks, even to the point he's making fun of handicapped people.

    Now you complain that this party is getting all the flak? I'm sorry, but that's a bit rich. I was never a fan of Hilary, but that Pizza place beeing a cover for her 'child-porn network'? Really? You can get that low in the US without beeing prosecuted? It even resulted in a shooting, and still none of the Republicans have the decency to say 'hey, maybe this is taking it too far'.

    /end of rant. But I am serious about this. Whatever your political choices are, decency should always be at the forefront, and I find it highly concearning that the USA has lost all decency. The country is morally bankrupt.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,425
    Totally agree. There's a moral relativism being advocated here which suggests that it doesn't matter how far things move to the left or right, the 'centre' is always nearby. I'd argue the current US administration leaves the political centre ground so far in the distance that it could justifiably be called extremist.

    @bondjames , when do you think it's actually valid to call a politician or a party out for going too far?

    I'm not equating Trump with Hitler, or suggesting you'd take it this far, but for the sake of argument (and because it's the obvious example to use) at what point exactly in the rise of Nazism do you think it would have been valid to start getting concerned or saying things had perhaps gone too far? Or does the sensible centre of political gravity just have to move invariably further and further towards extremism in respect of the electoral legitimacy of the ruling party - bearing in mind that Hitler was actually elected originally? The drift to totalitarianism and extremism is always always accompanied by the soothing words of respectable observers claiming things aren't so bad and it will all come out in the wash - we just need to bide our time.

    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing." - Edmund Burke
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I'm not going to get into this any further here apart from a few points. We had two threads closed on account of it, and a bit too late by my reckoning. So I won't defend POTUS here, but will say this:

    @Getafix, you contended that you're not being politically biased with your remarks and then take a whole post to demonstrate your bias. At least your being honest now. My point is that extremism & lying are on both sides. There is no moral high ground to be occupied by the left. Both parties in the US are fully bought and paid for by those who set policy (hint: it's not the govts that are elected by the people). All of this nonsense is a media distraction while the US ramps up its military footprint abroad. Clinton would have done exactly the same. Trump plays the game better, that's all. This is a big WWE reality show (with Trump as chief bad) for the masses to lap up while the real decisions are taken behind the scenes.

    @CommanderRoss, yes, it was a rant indeed. Glad you ended it. Best to keep it that way imho. There have been shootings & violence on account of leftist extremist views as well, including quite recently. I hope the congressman makes a speedy recovery.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    @Bondjames yes you are right, the idiocy has taken over both sides. All I'm saying is that the party who started this all and kept moving the boundaries, denying facts for political gain (John Kerry not beeing a war hero, etc. etc.) now reaps what it has been sowing for decades. The democrats may have had the upper hand in this respect, but indeed it doesn't take away the fact that they have been as much as the republicans been bought by their donors. It never seizes to amaze me that the US doesn't have a limit to political donations to limit personal influence on parties. It's astounding that buying politicians, like it's Rome all over again, is part of the game.

    It was a rant, but I think all the points I pointed out are still valid. Not that it matters much more, as the USA has chosen to turn inwards, especially obvious with the Paris agreement, China is already stepping in as the biggest world power. In ten year's time the USA will be as France has been for the last 50 odd years: a country shouting a lot, pretending it's the world power it used to be. But nobody is really listening. This is not in any way an attack on the USA (allthough it may look like it) but my summation of current events.

    To be clear: my position is that of a classic liberal in the European sense, which would make me right-leaning in Western Europe, somewhere in the centre in the UK and probably a leftist in the US. And I'm an historian, so I prefer looking at the bigger picture. Hence my rant in the direction of the republicans. But again, I could have done a similar thing in the direction of the democrats, selling themselves and their policies out to the highest bidder pretending to stand for 'the average American'. I read an article about a bill going to the senate making it impossible for trading with parties who fund terrorism. Neither side wants to sign that one, for obvious reasons.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,425
    bondjames wrote: »
    I'm not going to get into this any further here apart from a few points. We had two threads closed on account of it, and a bit too late by my reckoning. So I won't defend POTUS here, but will say this:

    @Getafix, you contended that you're not being politically biased with your remarks and then take a whole post to demonstrate your bias. At least your being honest now. My point is that extremism & lying are on both sides. There is no moral high ground to be occupied by the left. Both parties in the US are fully bought and paid for by those who set policy (hint: it's not the govts that are elected by the people). All of this nonsense is a media distraction while the US ramps up its military footprint abroad. Clinton would have done exactly the same. Trump plays the game better, that's all. This is a big WWE reality show (with Trump as chief bad) for the masses to lap up while the real decisions are taken behind the scenes.

    @CommanderRoss, yes, it was a rant indeed. Glad you ended it. Best to keep it that way imho. There have been shootings & violence on account of leftist extremist views as well, including quite recently. I hope the congressman makes a speedy recovery.

    One person's 'bias' is another's objectivity. It will always be like that. You think Trump is a regular centrist Republican, I'd argue he's something much more extreme.

    From my perspective you are the good man advocating a dangerously cynical moral relativism.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @CommanderRoss, I agree with all of your points. We're probably closer on the political spectrum than it would initially appear.

    Just to point out, the US was actually already turning inwards under Obama. That was the criticism of his tenure, which has curiously been forgotten these days. It's inevitable, as it is a nation ceding power & leadership to a new hegemon. China was already making massive inroads well before this year too. Examples include The Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank (which the UK joined, to the chagrin of the US), Shanghai Gold Exchange, String of Pearls strategy, Belt & Road Plan etc. etc. In fact, I contend that the current spat with Russia is because they aren't playing ball with the West in trying to 'contain' China, which is the real threat to continued (but declining) Western dominance. Hillary would have escalated conflict with Russia, and it looks like Trump will do the same (despite the side show Russia election rubbish out there to feed the idiot masses).

    Race violence was at an all time high over the past eight years (despite a black president). Military intervention was still ongoing during that time also (including the Libyan debacle which probably did as much to destabilize the middle east as the withdrawal of troops from Iraq - and yes, I realize that the actual incursion occurred under Bush).

    As you noted, Tulsi Gabbard's bill to stop terrorist funding has received nearly no support in the Congress (surprise, surprise). The same goes for Rand Paul's similar bill in the Senate. I'm sure I don't need to remind everyone that the Iraq War was nearly unanimously sanctioned by both sides of the aisle.

    Entrenched power is very difficult to break. It's clear, to those who care to look.

    A revolution is the only way, sadly.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 11,425
    You seem to be making the same point that I made which is that if you allow your sense of the political centre to be dictated by the extremes then you end up in dangerous territory.

    As I said one person's bias is another's objectivity. In this case when said by me its my bias and when said by you its your objectivity apparently.

    Anyway, as long as we agree, that's the important thing.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Getafix wrote: »
    You seem to be making the same point that I made which is that if you allow your sense of the political centre to be dictated by the extremes then you end up in dangerous territory.
    Exactly. I think it starts by understanding that one is being manipulated every day by narratives deliberately designed to mislead and contain. It's important not to get pulled to one side of the discussion in order to see things clearly. Ultimately misdirection is the name of the game these days.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Hmmm. But you seem to be peddling an 'They're all the same' narrative. Which is very much what the media tell us
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    On the contrary. The media don't tell us that at all. It's predominantly left leaning in the US/Canada (apart from a few noted exceptions), and right leaning in the UK (at least in terms of its views on Corbyn).

    They are both on the same page however when it comes to foreign policy. That's where the real power play is. The domestic stuff is all a distraction because there's no economic growth there any more (it's all tapped out and debt ridden). So that inevitably becomes about social hot buttons to stir up people's morality.

    Any government that attempts to change foreign policy in a manner which doesn't suit the real power behind the throne will be met with severe resistance of the first order.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Well in the UK there is a prevailing attitude that 'they're all the same'. At least before Corbyn came along any way.

    You seem to be saying you think they are 'all the same'. If so, I strongly disagree.

    And on a specific point, given the situation he inherited Obama's track record on economic growth wasn't that bad. http://politicsthatwork.com/economic-record-president/obama

    Re foreign policy do you really feel there was no difference between (for example) Obama and Clinton? I mean I'm not saying they're a million miles apart, but I do think there are serious blunders which Clinton might have made that Obama avoided.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Regarding foreign policy, I'm saying the differences are far less than you think. It was ironically Putin who saved Obama's rear end when he was being pulled (with the collusion of the McCains and Co.) into the Syrian conflict in 2013 under the pretext of a govt. sanctioned chemical attack. Trump used the same pretext to bomb Syria a few months back, and it looks like he will use the same approach again (it worked once after all). Leading members of both parties were jumping for joy when the first bombs were 'finally' dropped a few months back. There's more to this than people choose to see.

    Regarding his economic record, the statistics don't tell the whole story. Ultimately, he presided over a massive escalation of the US debt. He also presided over a presidency where interest rates were kept artificially low, which caused every nation to respond accordingly (since the $ is the reserve currency). This has led to massive global asset bubbles, distortions in valuations (they bear almost no relation to reality now), distortions in currencies and even larger personal debt loads. It also led to massive wealth transfer to the richest and the worst income inequality since the 1920's. The job statistics are a farce, because they don't include those who've dropped out of the work force as 'unemployed'. The majority of the jobs created were in the service sector which has poor benefits and less stability. US monetary policy over the past 8 years, and the distortions it has created, will be the reason for the either the next financial crisis or the next war. I will also point out that the financial crisis was indirectly caused by measures (Glass Steagal repeal and increased financial deregulation) which took place during the Clinton years.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    @bondjames I can only agree on your assessment of the Obama years sadly. He's perhaps most importantly remembered as the first president of colour, or whatever term I need to use these days. I don't think he was a very bad president, the legacy he got wasn't very good at all and the opposition fierce, and perhaps he himself wasn't outspoken enough to steer in a definite direction. Internationally, the lack of stance, has given Russia more power for sure.

    I don't think the Russians wanted Trump to win because he'd do what they wanted, I think they wanted him to win because he's the weaker chessplayer. And that's what they do. They invite you to make the first step, promise to do the same and when you're not looking they take your pawn. Trump, who knows nothing of the international diplomatic game is beeing cheated out of a win time and time again. The Russians will take one bombing in their stride. They're still winning the game. In the end they'll have Ukraine under their control, and as it now seems to go have a strong influence in the middle east, for the first time in 30 years.

    All in all, the US will in a year or two or so resort to either pulling back completely, or having to go all in (which would mean full-out war and occupation).

    Not that Europe will be able to do anything, allthough Merkel and Macron could end up beeing a dream team.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2017 Posts: 23,883
    @CommanderRoss, Obama's strengths were also his most glaring weaknesses. He should have been an ambassador or Secretary of State or something. A very nuanced and articulate speaker and clear thinker, but ultimately lacking in the leadership attributes required to steer the world's superpower in a time of decline.

    Trump is unpredictable, and that's his greatest strength. He is pulling the Reagan 'mad dog' stance. Nobody really knows his position because he changes every day, and is feigning senility (although I'm sure some think he is just that). The powers that really make decisions can capitalize on that unpredictable stance.

    Ultimately the US shouldn't have gotten into the Ukraine mess. That's Russia's back yard and they were always going to be more committed to a win. The same goes for Syria. They will not back down when it comes to their strategic imperatives, just like China and the US won't when it comes to their areas of focus respectively.

    The US will have to understand that as it adjusts to the new world order taking shape.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I love the idea Trump is 'feigning senility'.

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited June 2017 Posts: 9,117
    Getafix wrote: »
    I love the idea Trump is 'feigning senility'.

    Haha.

    He's actually a grandmaster playing Putin for a fool. The Donald is actually 10 moves a head of you Vlad. Master strategist!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Funny how the wahabbists are now singling out the salafists for supporting terrorism.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    Why is it we think people in power are actually 'more intelligent' then the rest of us? If you ask me, if you're half intelligent, you stay out of politics.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Speaking of intelligence
    2f6c89bd6194601b7d6214c6e14a3e4c.jpg
  • edited July 2017 Posts: 4,615
    Interesting the attack in Germany is getting such little coverage, is this just run of the mill now?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-40763369
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,271
    Well, it'as becoming a lot more normal now, so you could say we have (regrettably) reached run of the mill status now. The same thing happened after years of shootings, bombings and "knee-cappings" in Northern Ireland.

    Time to ship all "known Islamists" to the so-called Islamic State. Enough of this liberalist human rights claptrap. Rights and accountability cut both ways. As it stands, human rights laws are wide o[pen to abuse by those who seek to harm us most. A radical re-think is required methinks.
This discussion has been closed.