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  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    TripAces wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »
    Furthermore, start making the gun manufacturers liable. They have been protected from lawsuits. No more. These weapons are designed, crafted, and marketed to not just fire rounds, but do so in a way that will tear the human body to shreds. In other words, they are designed to be killing machines. The AR-15 is marketed as a gun with guaranteed "performance." Sick. Really sick.

    =))

    So you are advocating being able to sue someone for their product doing precisely what they said it would do when someone has legally purchased it and put it to the use it was designed for? What fresh insanity is this?
    patb wrote: »
    The suspect has been charged with murder. If this is a mental health issue then, by defintion, he cannot be found guilty of murder. Gun control attempts to keep guns out of the hands of sane murderers and people with mental heath issues. It's a win win scenario.

    The whole assualt weapon issue is a red herring IMHO. It implies that this kid should have been allowed a "normal gun" rather than an assault weapon. At least, then, perhaps he may only have killed five or six? Why have ANY type of gun?

    Quite. It certainly is a mental health issue but I suppose you can't lock a whole population up can you?
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    That's the second amendment for ya.

    Just keep building your wall, America. Keep the Mexicans out and all will be good again.

    And what does Trump say? The kid had mental issues. That's it? Just like that? Nothing about the guns he purchased legally? If a kid with mental issues can do that, you need to sort a few things out, perhaps. But wait, I know. Trump rather plays war games with N. Korea.

    I feel so sorry for you, America. You have elected "change", but you got an incompetent pathogen instead, and we're running out of antibiotics...

    Moron though he is this can't really be levelled at Trump's door. Hilary would be doing nothing differently when it comes to this issue. The bottom line is it would be suicide for your campaign for any presidential candidate to come out in favour of gun control.
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    The sad thing is that the rest of the world will fatigued with this type of story because the people that can and should sort the gun business out? Won't due to money, power, or are career politicians.

    Was just in Tesco and had a quick butchers at the front pages. There's only the Mirror who led with this. Everyone else had more interesting stories to cover.

    These weekly shootings aren't even worth reporting any more for those of us in the civilised world because the yanks have no desire for change so let's leave them to it.

    Yep. The weapon is designed to kill as easily and effectively as it can. And when it does that, the business that put its time, energy, and money into designing and manufacturing that machine MUST be held liable for ever producing it for the public in the first place. Go to Colt's website and look at how the weapon is marketed. Its purpose is clear: to be highly effective in killing people.

    Ask the cigarette/tobacco industry how this works.

    To quote Pierce himself 'You really are quite insane.'

    The point of cigarettes isn't to give you cancer it's to give you a nicotine high. Yes cancer is an unfortunate side effect that the fag companies knew about and kept quiet for fear of damaging sales so of course people have legal recourse against them for that.

    But a gun has literally no other purpose than to kill so for you to try and file suit you'd need to attempt to prove that you were so monumentally thick you had the intellectual agility of cold snot and didn't realise the new gun you bought to mow your lawn or brush your hair with had the capacity to kill.

    Maybe you want gun companies to put pictures on the side of the box of a bloke with his head blown off like fags have to of cancerous tumours to warn of the dangers of shooting guns? Although in the case of a gun that's more like advertising than a warning because blowing people's heads off IS WHAT GUNS ARE DESIGNED TO DO.

    Jesus. Please tell me that even in America you are banned from owning a gun?

    Post of the day.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    TripAces wrote: »
    TripAces wrote: »

    Let me ask you this: suppose a company manufacturers drones with weaponry already attached. The company has figured out how to easily shoot down aircraft with that drone and then manufactures those drones and sells them to the public, knowing they are designed to take down just about anything. How much you want to bet that when an airliner goes down, at the hands of one of those drones, that drone manufacturer will get sued to hell.

    Yes, they would.

    WTF? Is America really in such a state that you actually consider this a sane statement?

    Let me explain to you how things work in the civilised world. We, as a society, over hundreds of years have evolved what, for want of a better word, we call 'the law'.

    This 'law' is a set of rules that everybody is forced to live by and is regulated by something called 'government' which is ostensibly a group of people who are chosen by all the other people to run things and prevent anarchy from running riot.

    Now in evolved countries (ie not America or African war zones) there's a list of things that society via government and the law has deemed 'illegal'. As a libertarian some of these are annoying as it should be the individual's choice how they live their life but they are necessary compromises so that we can all live in relative peace and prosperity.

    A few examples: selling heroin, driving at over 70mph, rape, smoking in public, murder, drink driving, owning an assault rifle, downloading child porn and - quelle surprise - being able to buy an armed drone capable of taking down an airliner.

    You'll have to explain to the rest of us why your government isn't able to enact similar 'laws' for the good of society as a whole?

    Now I'm no expert on the American legal system (in a nutshell if you're black you're going down, unless you're rich and then you get off is how it works isn't it?) so you may well be correct that if your supine government allowed Lockheed Martin to produce and market an affordable drone for taking down aircraft that was available for the public to buy in Walmart and someone happened to shoot down a 747 with their drone they could then sue.

    Apart from the fact that they would get nowhere as Lockheed's lawyers would tangle them up until they ran out of money to fund their lawsuit, this case is surely bereft of any merit if the company clearly labelled the box 'Airlinerbuster Drone - Shoot planes out of the sky from the comfort of your own home'? If the government saw no problem with this and allowed them to sell it to the public (highly plausible - this is America remember) what has the company done wrong exactly? By your rationale every time someone gets run over by a drunk driver the car company is at fault and is sued for producing a car that could go fast enough to kill someone if it hit them?

    This whole conversation is inherently ludicrous anyway as the reason we have governments is to stop the general public having access to lethal weaponry. OK we have to have knives for cooking, axes for chopping wood and there's a justification for farmers to own guns so you can never eliminate dangerous objects altogether. But the thought of arming teachers simply because it's more important to protect people's perceived 'fundamental human right' to have access to a gun than it is to protect children's lives is beyond insane. It's actually quite sick.


    You're not seeing my point, @TheWizardOfIce. because we are in agreement: the guns have to be off the streets. You think government needs to do something. So do I. What they need to do is repeal the 2005 law that shielded gun manufacturers from lawsuits:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protection_of_Lawful_Commerce_in_Arms_Act

    Strong gun laws is one step. But forcing gun manufacturers into pulling assault/military rifles from their public sales is also necessary. The only way to do that is nail them for manufacturing these guns and selling them.

    https://www.colt.com/Catalog/Rifles/AR15A4

    The AR-15 has no other useful purpose than to F people up. Why is Colt marketing and normalizing this weapon?

    Sorry old son we are not in the slightest agreement and your point is asinine in the extreme.

    Your 'point' (such as it is) only pertains to assault rifles. So you're quite happy for people to be able to go into a store and fill a shopping cart with handguns just as long as they aren't allowed an AR-15?

    The only differences between them are rate of fire, power and magazine capacity. You walk into a school with a handgun and you can kill maybe 6 maybe 12 kids before the swat team comes in and stops you. You go in with an AR-15 and you can kill maybe 15-30.

    If your point is that a few dead kids are an acceptable price to pay for being allowed to carry guns then fine but the rest of the world would contend that no dead kids should be the aspiration.

    Why is Colt marketing and normalising this weapon? Because they are in the business of selling guns and fortunately for them they operate in a country where the government permits them to go about this business perfectly legally and there are millions of citizens who believe they should have the right to buy their products to protect themselves against Muslims/gays/Communists etc.

    Can you explain why you think castigating a company for going about their business is the answer?

    As a certain Senor Lazar once said 'bullets do not kill. It is the finger that pulls the trigger.'
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    @TheWizardOfIce, but what if a loss of fingers results in the trigger being housed in the butt of a rifle?!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @TheWizardOfIce, but what if a loss of fingers results in the trigger being housed in the butt of a rifle?!

    Colt could mass produce a rifle for fingerless hoodlums. TripAces might get the hump at a company legally making money by selling their product to happy customers but it would be unfair to bar the digitally challenged from the fun of mass infanticide.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,032
    I wonder a little, @TheWizardOfIce, why you're (in my opinion) picking a fight with @TripAces. My impression is that he (she, it...whatever) is very critical of the US situation as well, and though from afar, as a lawyer I concur that at this time one probably couldn't sue the gun producers for the victims. One may wish to change that, but for the time being they seem to get off scot-free.

    In Europe it seems to be a no-brainer that people shouldn't be allowed to possess (at the very least) assault rifles. Having one is e.g. in Germany a felony, and you also cannot even obtain a licence to have one (unlike for a hunting rifle, if you have a hunting licence, or for a pistol under special circumstances). Legal guns must also be registered.

    But the story is a different one once you have 300 million or so guns floating around in your country, the overwhelming majority of them unregistered. I can see why some decent people are tempted to buy a handgun themselves (though not an automatic rifle) for their own defence, increasing the problem itself. But knowing the U.S. at least better than the average European, I find it unrealistic to find a majority doing away with the 2nd Amendment...and no more realistic to expect the Supreme Court to decide what I think the truth is: That the 2nd Amendment does not at all grant an individual right to have a gun, except for the purpose of letting the states have a well-regulated militia.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    I wonder a little, @TheWizardOfIce, why you're (in my opinion) picking a fight with @TripAces. My impression is that he (she, it...whatever) is very critical of the US situation as well, and though from afar, as a lawyer I concur that at this time one probably couldn't sue the gun producers for the victims. One may wish to change that, but for the time being they seem to get off scot-free.

    In Europe it seems to be a no-brainer that people shouldn't be allowed to possess (at the very least) assault rifles. Having one is e.g. in Germany a felony, and you also cannot even obtain a licence to have one (unlike for a hunting rifle, if you have a hunting licence, or for a pistol under special circumstances). Legal guns must also be registered.

    But the story is a different one once you have 300 million or so guns floating around in your country, the overwhelming majority of them unregistered. I can see why some decent people are tempted to buy a handgun themselves (though not an automatic rifle) for their own defence, increasing the problem itself. But knowing the U.S. at least better than the average European, I find it unrealistic to find a majority doing away with the 2nd Amendment...and no more realistic to expect the Supreme Court to decide what I think the truth is: That the 2nd Amendment does not at all grant an individual right to have a gun, except for the purpose of letting the states have a well-regulated militia.

    So why in th world would Europeans still feel sorry for a country of which the population clearly wants their children murdured in schools? There's no other way to say it: they want it. The assault weapon ban (yes, there used to be one! - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban) wasn't reinstated or prolonged, even though some (both D and R) tried.

    People say they want to be able to 'defend their homes and farms' from wildlife and burglars. Whilst I don't know how many bears are shot every year because they were attacking law-abiding citizens, I bet it were fewer then kids shot in schools. But hell, defending your stereo is far more important thne your kids life, we all know that!

    No, they want it. It's clear. If there was a majority against it these people would go on the streets and protest, block entrances to gun factories, whatnot. but they don't give a toss.

    Funny how one of the most backward countries in the world still thinks it should police the rest around.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It is time to break up @TheUnitedStates. Most states would be better off by themselveses.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    I wonder a little, @TheWizardOfIce, why you're (in my opinion) picking a fight with @TripAces. My impression is that he (she, it...whatever) is very critical of the US situation as well, and though from afar, as a lawyer I concur that at this time one probably couldn't sue the gun producers for the victims. One may wish to change that, but for the time being they seem to get off scot-free.

    In Europe it seems to be a no-brainer that people shouldn't be allowed to possess (at the very least) assault rifles. Having one is e.g. in Germany a felony, and you also cannot even obtain a licence to have one (unlike for a hunting rifle, if you have a hunting licence, or for a pistol under special circumstances). Legal guns must also be registered.

    But the story is a different one once you have 300 million or so guns floating around in your country, the overwhelming majority of them unregistered. I can see why some decent people are tempted to buy a handgun themselves (though not an automatic rifle) for their own defence, increasing the problem itself. But knowing the U.S. at least better than the average European, I find it unrealistic to find a majority doing away with the 2nd Amendment...and no more realistic to expect the Supreme Court to decide what I think the truth is: That the 2nd Amendment does not at all grant an individual right to have a gun, except for the purpose of letting the states have a well-regulated militia.

    So why in th world would Europeans still feel sorry for a country of which the population clearly wants their children murdured in schools? There's no other way to say it: they want it. The assault weapon ban (yes, there used to be one! - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban) wasn't reinstated or prolonged, even though some (both D and R) tried.

    People say they want to be able to 'defend their homes and farms' from wildlife and burglars. Whilst I don't know how many bears are shot every year because they were attacking law-abiding citizens, I bet it were fewer then kids shot in schools. But hell, defending your stereo is far more important thne your kids life, we all know that!

    No, they want it. It's clear. If there was a majority against it these people would go on the streets and protest, block entrances to gun factories, whatnot. but they don't give a toss.

    Funny how one of the most backward countries in the world still thinks it should police the rest around.

    Those outside the U.S. don't understand how messed up our "representative" form of government really is. More voters vote for Democrats than Republicans. And yet, Republicans control almost every aspect of government. How is that?

    http://prospect.org/article/republican-structural-advantage
  • Posts: 4,615
    We have the same issues with the electoral system in the UK but no gun issue, it's far deeper than electoral issues IMHIO
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    patb wrote: »
    We have the same issues with the electoral system in the UK but no gun issue, it's far deeper than electoral issues IMHIO

    We’re also saddled with the 2nd amendment and the NRA. Fun stuff.
  • From the public reaction I'm seeing at this point in time, it appears that we in the US may finally be ready and willing to consider reinstating the Federal Assault Weapons ban. Let us hope...

    For the benefit of our European members, let me just say: the American history with guns makes the situation re: the law and gun sales a little...complicated. And I'm speaking as someone who's long been in favor of stronger restrictions on the easy availability of firearms. The 2nd amendment can easily be exploited by those who simply want to make more $$$ by selling any and every sort of weapon to anybody with the cash. That's clearly not the original intent of the amendment (the phrase about a "well regulated militia" makes that particular point pretty clear) -- but Americans do tend to value the third factor in the phrase "life, liberty and the pursuit of profit" more highly than the first one. And the NRA...well, they clearly need to re-evaluate their position in this issue. That's something only the dues paying members of the NRA can address. Still, the public opinion on this issue seems to have shifted rather significantly of late, and politicians are generally pretty intent on seeming to be in tune with the wishes of their constituents. We shall see how the tide runs over the coming weeks and months...
  • Posts: 684
    It is time to break up @TheUnitedStates. Most states would be better off by themselveses.
    Municipal, bottom up. Feeling no shame is easy when you don't have to look in the eye every day those you serve.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Strog wrote: »
    It is time to break up @TheUnitedStates. Most states would be better off by themselveses.
    Municipal, bottom up. Feeling no shame is easy when you don't have to look in the eye every day those you serve.

    Yes, smaller communities work better that way.
  • Posts: 15,117
    @BeatlesSansEarmuffs I have heard that one before about finally going ahead with more gun control due to a massacre. It hasn't happened yet.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    @BeatlesSansEarmuffs I have heard that one before about finally going ahead with more gun control due to a massacre. It hasn't happened yet.

    The journey of a thousand miles...doesn't happen overnight. All I'm saying is, this time it seems like the conversation is starting in earnest.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    I wonder a little, @TheWizardOfIce, why you're (in my opinion) picking a fight with @TripAces. My impression is that he (she, it...whatever) is very critical of the US situation as well, and though from afar, as a lawyer I concur that at this time one probably couldn't sue the gun producers for the victims. One may wish to change that, but for the time being they seem to get off scot-free.

    In Europe it seems to be a no-brainer that people shouldn't be allowed to possess (at the very least) assault rifles. Having one is e.g. in Germany a felony, and you also cannot even obtain a licence to have one (unlike for a hunting rifle, if you have a hunting licence, or for a pistol under special circumstances). Legal guns must also be registered.

    But the story is a different one once you have 300 million or so guns floating around in your country, the overwhelming majority of them unregistered. I can see why some decent people are tempted to buy a handgun themselves (though not an automatic rifle) for their own defence, increasing the problem itself. But knowing the U.S. at least better than the average European, I find it unrealistic to find a majority doing away with the 2nd Amendment...and no more realistic to expect the Supreme Court to decide what I think the truth is: That the 2nd Amendment does not at all grant an individual right to have a gun, except for the purpose of letting the states have a well-regulated militia.

    The only thing I'm picking a fight with is this idiotic notion that banning assault rifles will make the slightest difference when you can still walk into a Walmart and fill your basket up with pistols, shotguns and rifles.

    The difference between an assault rifle and the above is merely killing efficiency. If you want to shoot up a classroom full of kids an assault rifle would be the preferred option for sure but you can still destroy plenty of lives and families with weapons that don't come under that bracket.
    TripAces wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    We have the same issues with the electoral system in the UK but no gun issue, it's far deeper than electoral issues IMHIO

    We’re also saddled with the 2nd amendment and the NRA. Fun stuff.

    This is the crux of it. Until the gun control movement can mobilise themselves to be as effective as the NRA at lobbying and getting the ear of politicians then nothing will change.

    This video shows just how much the NRA manages to influence feckless politicians simply by getting off their arses:

  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    I wonder a little, @TheWizardOfIce, why you're (in my opinion) picking a fight with @TripAces. My impression is that he (she, it...whatever) is very critical of the US situation as well, and though from afar, as a lawyer I concur that at this time one probably couldn't sue the gun producers for the victims. One may wish to change that, but for the time being they seem to get off scot-free.

    In Europe it seems to be a no-brainer that people shouldn't be allowed to possess (at the very least) assault rifles. Having one is e.g. in Germany a felony, and you also cannot even obtain a licence to have one (unlike for a hunting rifle, if you have a hunting licence, or for a pistol under special circumstances). Legal guns must also be registered.

    But the story is a different one once you have 300 million or so guns floating around in your country, the overwhelming majority of them unregistered. I can see why some decent people are tempted to buy a handgun themselves (though not an automatic rifle) for their own defence, increasing the problem itself. But knowing the U.S. at least better than the average European, I find it unrealistic to find a majority doing away with the 2nd Amendment...and no more realistic to expect the Supreme Court to decide what I think the truth is: That the 2nd Amendment does not at all grant an individual right to have a gun, except for the purpose of letting the states have a well-regulated militia.

    The only thing I'm picking a fight with is this idiotic notion that banning assault rifles will make the slightest difference when you can still walk into a Walmart and fill your basket up with pistols, shotguns and rifles.

    The difference between an assault rifle and the above is merely killing efficiency. If you want to shoot up a classroom full of kids an assault rifle would be the preferred option for sure but you can still destroy plenty of lives and families with weapons that don't come under that bracket.
    TripAces wrote: »
    patb wrote: »
    We have the same issues with the electoral system in the UK but no gun issue, it's far deeper than electoral issues IMHIO

    We’re also saddled with the 2nd amendment and the NRA. Fun stuff.

    This is the crux of it. Until the gun control movement can mobilise themselves to be as effective as the NRA at lobbying and getting the ear of politicians then nothing will change.

    This video shows just how much the NRA manages to influence feckless politicians simply by getting off their arses:


    An arsenal of pistols and shotguns won't kill 58 concertgoers in Las Vegas, from 1,000 feet away.

    Allowing pistols and shotguns won't rid ourselves of gun-related deaths. But it cuts down the likelihood of mass casualties, simply because having to reload or re-arm is not conducive to it. There is a reason why AR-15s are the most common weapon used in wiping out many people in a short amount of time, without any skill required.
  • Posts: 7,507
    I interpret this as a case of being practical right? We all agree any kind of shooting weapon should be banned I presume? However starting with banning assault rifles might be a more realistic first step? If Americans are not able to part with their precious guns yet, maybe a majority of them at least can understand what lunacy it is to have assault rifles on the market?
  • edited February 2018 Posts: 12,837
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    I wonder a little, @TheWizardOfIce, why you're (in my opinion) picking a fight with @TripAces. My impression is that he (she, it...whatever) is very critical of the US situation as well, and though from afar, as a lawyer I concur that at this time one probably couldn't sue the gun producers for the victims. One may wish to change that, but for the time being they seem to get off scot-free.

    In Europe it seems to be a no-brainer that people shouldn't be allowed to possess (at the very least) assault rifles. Having one is e.g. in Germany a felony, and you also cannot even obtain a licence to have one (unlike for a hunting rifle, if you have a hunting licence, or for a pistol under special circumstances). Legal guns must also be registered.

    But the story is a different one once you have 300 million or so guns floating around in your country, the overwhelming majority of them unregistered. I can see why some decent people are tempted to buy a handgun themselves (though not an automatic rifle) for their own defence, increasing the problem itself. But knowing the U.S. at least better than the average European, I find it unrealistic to find a majority doing away with the 2nd Amendment...and no more realistic to expect the Supreme Court to decide what I think the truth is: That the 2nd Amendment does not at all grant an individual right to have a gun, except for the purpose of letting the states have a well-regulated militia.

    So why in th world would Europeans still feel sorry for a country of which the population clearly wants their children murdured in schools? There's no other way to say it: they want it. The assault weapon ban (yes, there used to be one! - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban) wasn't reinstated or prolonged, even though some (both D and R) tried.

    People say they want to be able to 'defend their homes and farms' from wildlife and burglars. Whilst I don't know how many bears are shot every year because they were attacking law-abiding citizens, I bet it were fewer then kids shot in schools. But hell, defending your stereo is far more important thne your kids life, we all know that!

    No, they want it. It's clear. If there was a majority against it these people would go on the streets and protest, block entrances to gun factories, whatnot. but they don't give a toss.

    Funny how one of the most backward countries in the world still thinks it should police the rest around.

    Yep. I feel genuinely sorry for those like @Creasy47 who aren't as mental as the gunowners and are still stuck there, but at the end of the day, if the majority of Americans didn't want it there wouldn't be such a big debate every single time this happens (and it's happened too many times to count), it'd be much more one sided. It's messed up but if enough people wanted it to change, it'd change. Even in this thread we've had a guy telling us that his coworker owns 50 guns, telling us Vegas was down to poor security at the hotel rather than how you can easily buy an assault rifle, and I'm pretty sure I can remember posts from a couple of members who've bought their own PPK. Too many Americans love their guns to prevent this happening again. See you next time guys.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @BeatlesSansEarmuffs I have heard that one before about finally going ahead with more gun control due to a massacre. It hasn't happened yet.

    The journey of a thousand miles...doesn't happen overnight. All I'm saying is, this time it seems like the conversation is starting in earnest.

    Just seems to be going round in circles to me. "Jesus Christ again? How have America not sorted out stricter gun control", "self defense!", "you don't need an assault rifle to defend yourself", "second amendment, criminals will find a way to get guns anyway, lets ignore the fact gun crime is lower in the civilised parts of the world", etc. Then it dies down until more people die, then it starts off again, dies down, more die. Endless cycle.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @BeatlesSansEarmuffs I have heard that one before about finally going ahead with more gun control due to a massacre. It hasn't happened yet.

    The journey of a thousand miles...doesn't happen overnight. All I'm saying is, this time it seems like the conversation is starting in earnest.

    A conversation they had before. I'll believe in changes when I see them.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @BeatlesSansEarmuffs I have heard that one before about finally going ahead with more gun control due to a massacre. It hasn't happened yet.

    The journey of a thousand miles...doesn't happen overnight. All I'm saying is, this time it seems like the conversation is starting in earnest.

    A conversation they had before. I'll believe in changes when I see them.

    At the risk of parroting a cliche': Be part of the solution or you're part of the problem.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @BeatlesSansEarmuffs I have heard that one before about finally going ahead with more gun control due to a massacre. It hasn't happened yet.

    The journey of a thousand miles...doesn't happen overnight. All I'm saying is, this time it seems like the conversation is starting in earnest.

    A conversation they had before. I'll believe in changes when I see them.

    At the risk of parroting a cliche': Be part of the solution or you're part of the problem.
    https://www.npr.org/2018/02/17/586825434/after-parkland-shooting-a-florida-gun-owner-gives-up-his-ar-57
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @BeatlesSansEarmuffs I have heard that one before about finally going ahead with more gun control due to a massacre. It hasn't happened yet.

    The journey of a thousand miles...doesn't happen overnight. All I'm saying is, this time it seems like the conversation is starting in earnest.

    A conversation they had before. I'll believe in changes when I see them.

    At the risk of parroting a cliche': Be part of the solution or you're part of the problem.
    https://www.npr.org/2018/02/17/586825434/after-parkland-shooting-a-florida-gun-owner-gives-up-his-ar-57

    What a heartwarming story. No doubt he's still got a massive arsenal of handguns and shotguns though?

    This seeming obsession that getting rid of assault rifles is the solution seems like an easy win for the politicians (if they weren't in thrall to the NRA) as it would look like they were doing something but people could still keep most of their guns.

    Virginia Tec (32 dead), Dunblane (17 dead), Hungerford (16 dead) and the Cumbria shootings (12 dead) were all done by people who didn't have assault rifles.

    It's only because people are allowed to buy AR-15s and they deliver a better bang for your buck that they are the current weapon du jour for the aspirant nutter. If you ask any of the above if they would have liked to upgrade to an AR-15 they would bite your hand off. If nuclear warheads were easily available and affordable I daresay we'd be seeing a spate of nuclear massacres in schools at the moment. The point being that if you have access to guns and you are mental then you can commit such atrocities anywhere irrespective of what type of gun you can get your hands on. It's extremely difficult to prevent people going mental so the other option is to reduce the access to guns PERIOD not just certain types of guns.

    Picture the scene:

    (A Mentalist walks into a gun shop with a plan to shoot up a local school)

    Mentalist: I'd like to buy an assault rifle please.
    Shop Assistant: Sorry the government has banned the sale of assault rifles. We can sell you pistols, shotguns and rifles though.
    Mentalist: I had my heart set on an assault rifle.
    Shop Assistant: Well my hands are tied the law is the law.
    Mentalist: Fair enough. I'll be off then.

    (Mentalist goes home and abandons his planned slaughter of children and lives a happy and productive life as a peaceful citizen.)

    Suggesting that just banning assault rifles will see these shootings stop is pissing in the wind while Rome burns; unless of course we consider a mass shooting where only 7 kids are killed instead of 20 as progress? I guess it is of a kind but I wouldn't want to be the one telling the families of the 7 'Well your kids are still dead but thanks to us banning assault rifles it could have been a lot worse so happy days.'
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    @BeatlesSansEarmuffs I have heard that one before about finally going ahead with more gun control due to a massacre. It hasn't happened yet.

    The journey of a thousand miles...doesn't happen overnight. All I'm saying is, this time it seems like the conversation is starting in earnest.

    A conversation they had before. I'll believe in changes when I see them.

    At the risk of parroting a cliche': Be part of the solution or you're part of the problem.
    https://www.npr.org/2018/02/17/586825434/after-parkland-shooting-a-florida-gun-owner-gives-up-his-ar-57

    What a heartwarming story. No doubt he's still got a massive arsenal of handguns and shotguns though?

    This seeming obsession that getting rid of assault rifles is the solution seems like an easy win for the politicians (if they weren't in thrall to the NRA) as it would look like they were doing something but people could still keep most of their guns.

    Virginia Tec (32 dead), Dunblane (17 dead), Hungerford (16 dead) and the Cumbria shootings (12 dead) were all done by people who didn't have assault rifles.

    It's only because people are allowed to buy AR-15s and they deliver a better bang for your buck that they are the current weapon du jour for the aspirant nutter. If you ask any of the above if they would have liked to upgrade to an AR-15 they would bite your hand off. If nuclear warheads were easily available and affordable I daresay we'd be seeing a spate of nuclear massacres in schools at the moment. The point being that if you have access to guns and you are mental then you can commit such atrocities anywhere irrespective of what type of gun you can get your hands on. It's extremely difficult to prevent people going mental so the other option is to reduce the access to guns PERIOD not just certain types of guns.

    Picture the scene:

    (A Mentalist walks into a gun shop with a plan to shoot up a local school)

    Mentalist: I'd like to buy an assault rifle please.
    Shop Assistant: Sorry the government has banned the sale of assault rifles. We can sell you pistols, shotguns and rifles though.
    Mentalist: I had my heart set on an assault rifle.
    Shop Assistant: Well my hands are tied the law is the law.
    Mentalist: Fair enough. I'll be off then.

    (Mentalist goes home and abandons his planned slaughter of children and lives a happy and productive life as a peaceful citizen.)

    Suggesting that just banning assault rifles will see these shootings stop is pissing in the wind while Rome burns; unless of course we consider a mass shooting where only 7 kids are killed instead of 20 as progress? I guess it is of a kind but I wouldn't want to be the one telling the families of the 7 'Well your kids are still dead but thanks to us banning assault rifles it could have been a lot worse so happy days.'

    There has to be a multi-level approach. There will NEVER be a ban on guns as long as the 2nd amendment is in place. But Chris Rock once said that what the U.S. needs is not gun control but bullet control, and though he was cracking a joke, he was right.

    Stronger background checks
    No sales at gun shows
    Illegal for anyone under 21 to purchase a weapon
    Significant taxes on all gun and artillery sales

    Among other things.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Suggesting that just banning assault rifles will see these shootings stop is pissing in the wind while Rome burns; unless of course we consider a mass shooting where only 7 kids are killed instead of 20 as progress?
    When you get the flu do you JUST stay in bed, or do you do a few different thins? There is no one (excuse the term here) magic bullet for this problem.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited February 2018 Posts: 9,117
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Suggesting that just banning assault rifles will see these shootings stop is pissing in the wind while Rome burns; unless of course we consider a mass shooting where only 7 kids are killed instead of 20 as progress?
    When you get the flu do you JUST stay in bed, or do you do a few different thins? There is no one (excuse the term here) magic bullet for this problem.

    There certainly isn't. But there are steps that could be taken to make a difference
    How many mass shootings have there been in Australia since 28th April 1996? That's just a coincidence I suppose?
    TripAces wrote: »
    There will NEVER be a ban on guns as long as the 2nd amendment is in place.

    Agree entirely. But the constitution wasn't engraved on stone tablets and sent down by God. It was written by men and if there is the desire it can also be changed by men - as demonstrated by the term 'amendment'.

    Let's not claim that this is some intractable problem and that nothing can be done. Politicians could bring in legislation for gun control but we all know they won't because of the NRA having the government in their pocket and the general population having no desire to give up their guns.

    Can individual states not set their own gun laws? At least then the civilised places like California and NYC where there might be a majority of sane people could ban them and leave the gun loving, god bothering nutters in the middle to it.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    the general population having no desire to give up their guns.
    Just worth a mention here, the majority of Americans do not own guns....
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    And then there's this:

    http://www.kansascity.com/news/state/missouri/article200820119.html

    This gun crap is deeply embedded into our culture.
  • Posts: 7,507
    It has always fascinated me, this religious fanatiscism with the constitution in the USA. It was written by normal human beings, slave owners living in a society completely different to modern times. In the civilized world we regard legislation written in the 18th century as significantly outdated. Who would want the modern world to be governed like in 1791?
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