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  • Posts: 7,507
    Come on, how little can you be if you pick on someone who's already down and out? Trumps showing he's the biggest bully in the world..

    https://edition.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/trump-office-love-the-children/index.html


    I wonder what Donald would have done in the same situation? Run off to the nearest McDonalds?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    If you put your own life above that of a bunch of children, criticism is fair.
  • Posts: 4,615
    The implication is that the officer made a rational decision re his life above the children etc etc,

    We should all be aware that adults act differently under under extreme stress (how many of us keyboard experts have experienced this level of stress?)

    It reminded me of Beevor's fantastic book on D Day. There is a chapter devoted to how armies fight and he collected much research. Overall, the figure was 1/3 freeze, a 1/3 fight and a 1/3 assist the other third to fight. Any force that could get up to 35 or 40% to do the fighting would have a very big advantage. Of course, this narrative does not fit in with history as we have written it as the winning side. A war movie where a 1/3 of our guys freeze would not make great box office. We still dont have the knowledge to predict how individuals will react under such stress and, obvioulsy, we cant re-create that stress in training etc . It's simply wrong to expect every enforcement officer in the USA to become John McClaine when the poo hits the fan. And even more wrong to label anyone who does not become Rambo as a corward etc. Typical example of the media (and politicians) taking a complex situation and turning into Black and White:

    coward or hero - thats all the media wants with no room in between

    And yet, Trump seems to expect this of his teachers - they will all act as heroes under the same set of circumstances. That lack of geniune thought and reason within the debate going on in the USA is more scary than the shootings.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    You can t compare protecting children with fighting in some shitty war between different state mafias.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited February 2018 Posts: 9,117
    patb wrote: »
    The implication is that the officer made a rational decision re his life above the children etc etc,

    We should all be aware that adults act differently under under extreme stress (how many of us keyboard experts have experienced this level of stress?)

    It reminded me of Beevor's fantastic book on D Day. There is a chapter devoted to how armies fight and he collected much research. Overall, the figure was 1/3 freeze, a 1/3 fight and a 1/3 assist the other third to fight. Any force that could get up to 35 or 40% to do the fighting would have a very big advantage. Of course, this narrative does not fit in with history as we have written it as the winning side. A war movie where a 1/3 of our guys freeze would not make great box office. We still dont have the knowledge to predict how individuals will react under such stress and, obvioulsy, we cant re-create that stress in training etc . It's simply wrong to expect every enforcement officer in the USA to become John McClaine when the poo hits the fan. And even more wrong to label anyone who does not become Rambo as a corward etc. Typical example of the media (and politicians) taking a complex situation and turning into Black and White:

    coward or hero - thats all the media wants with no room in between

    And yet, Trump seems to expect this of his teachers - they will all act as heroes under the same set of circumstances. That lack of geniune thought and reason within the debate going on in the USA is more scary than the shootings.

    Presume the same people criticising this guy would also call out any of the lads who were at the Somme who froze on the spot when under extreme pressure?
    You can t compare protecting children with fighting in some shitty war between different state mafias.

    When there's a nutter with a machine gun rampaging round even SWAT teams don't just run in gung ho shooting like Neo at the end of the Matrix. They secure the perimeter, then they slowly work their way through the building clearing room by room. It's all about not putting themselves at risk recklessly. It seems people would only have been satisfied if this poor sod had sacrificed himself in a futile gesture.

    But of course it's so comforting that there's a scapegoat for this as it can all be blamed on him and the gun control debate can be forgotten about.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    You can t compare protecting children with fighting in some shitty war between different state mafias.

    That's because you're comparing the wrong things. Human instinct doesn't know the one from the other, it understands only the violence spectrum. And when you end up in the highest, instinct kicks in and no rational beeing is rational anymore. This would require the level of training SWAT teams get, but you're not telling me this officer was actually a Navy SEAL.

    So instead on focussing on the problem: how to avoid the highest violence spectrum in schools, the US president starts kicking down on a man who froze when violence came to his school and he was supposed to act, even though he wasn't trained nor armed for the occasion.

    Evn if you'd seriously consider his solution, where teachers are supposed to tote machine guns in case a disgruntled student shows up after first going to the local gun store (in any other country this sentece would make people laugh), you're forgetting that they're not trained to handle those weapons, nor recognise the threat. All in all, next time you'll have a kid open fire, kill a couple of his fellow students, maybe a teacher or two too, and in the best of circumstances have a teacher beeing able to use the gun properly and take the kid out. How's that going to help keeping violence away from schools? 5 dead instead of 17. Well done USA!

    And in the meantime the whole bloody country is taking it out on an old guy who's been a victim of a stupid system as much as the kids, but who'll probably kill himself now or in a few weeks because he can't live with the shame of it. Well done Trump.

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    I'm not expecting us all to turn into vegetarian, pacifist, ultra-progressive, liberal citizens of the world overnight, but to shower one man with the horrors of guilt and self-loathing is quite obscene when, as @TheWizardOfIce correctly pointed out, it's unclear how any of us would react in a similar situation. I've seen the bravest of men freeze dead cold when a kid with a piece of lab glass in one eye is carried into an ambulance. Imagine a lunatic with unclear motives and who knows what kind of weaponry empty his guns on children. You know this guy is off his rocker. You know he's unpredictable. What would *you* do, Mister President?

    Build a wall?

    Christ, how long is this joke going to play out?

    "Trump" sounds a lot like the French word for being wrong. We need to get rid of this madman. I'm starting to long for the days of George Double-yuh.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Some of us do know how we would react.
  • Posts: 4,615
    We think we know unless we have been in the situation already.

    If this guy had gone in and taken on the shooter, the media would have portrayed him as a super hero with a visit to the Whitehouse, medals and a Clint Eastwood directed movie. He did not so he is branded a coward and the target of Trump and the media.

    The whole thing is grotesque and I do feel so sorry for USA citizens who have the insight and common sense to see what is happening and identify who the real bad guys are but can't do much about it.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Some of us do know how we would react.

    I didn't realise Casey Ryback was a member here.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Here's the thing. I know - theoretically - how I would respond to a sudden fire. I'm also well aware of the fact that I've never stood in front of a life-threatening situation of fire before. Ergo, I have no idea how I would actually respond in case of the real thing.

    Fire drills are important and must be conducted frequently. The required "plan of action" is a rational one but must become an automatic one, for when the real situation demands it, automatic impulses are the best we can hope to rely on. People who are insufficiently trained, may "know" what to do but will get hopelessly lost in chaos in a real situation.

    Psychologists will tell you that when children are in mortal danger, our biology, intended to preserve our offspring for the sake of our species, will kick into gears and reduce our own self-preserving tendencies below a certain bar, in favour of the safety of those children. However, this may be statistically true, but when individual cases are closely examined, like you or I, it may be established that self-preserving objectives lead to what others describe as cowardice, i.e. that your body freezes down as it were and you are unable to react even if your mind tells you that you should. Even the best trained soldiers can experience this.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I may be a coward too, but there are special circumstances where you just step up regardless.
  • Posts: 4,615
    @Thunderfinger have you experienced these "special circumstances" yourself?
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Not a massacre, but I do know myself. I respect your cowardice, why can t you respect my bravery?
  • Posts: 4,615
    "I respect your cowardice" Much appreciated
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    You re welcome.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Not a massacre, but I do know myself. I respect your cowardice, why can t you respect my bravery?

    In my head if a terrorist got on my tube train I'd roundhouse him to the floor and then disarm him to the cheers of my fellow passengers but the reality would probably be I'd cower in my seat like a frightened field mouse and probably a bit of wee would come out.

    I guess I'm just not arrogant enough to assume I would be able to override natural human reactions to extreme stress with 'bravery'.

    The one thing you find with real heroes is that they never feel the need to bang on about how brave they are all the time.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It was the other side that kept banging on.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Last time someone threatened me physically the adrenaline kicked in, my emotions shut off and I began the calculations to take him out as efficiently as possible. He backed off. I have no idea how it would go down during gun fire. Never been there.
  • edited February 2018 Posts: 3,566
    And now we're hearing that there WAS more than one "good guy with a gun" on the scene at the time -- and that SEVERAL of them froze over in the crucial early stages of this horrible incident. I'm not pointing any fingers or flinging any blame. I'm certainly not trying to predict what MY actions would be in a hypothetical similar moment. My only intent is to bring this conversation back the main issue at hand: is America ever going to break the stranglehold the NRA has over the topic of gun control? It looks like the time could indeed be NOW...
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    And now we're hearing that there WAS more than one "good guy with a gun" on the scene at the time -- and that SEVERAL of them froze over in the crucial early stages of this horrible incident. I'm not pointing any fingers or flinging any blame. I'm certainly not trying to predict what MY actions would be in a hypothetical similar moment. My only intent is to bring this conversation back the main issue at hand: is America ever going to break the stranglehold the NRA has over the topic of gun control? It looks like the time could indeed be NOW...

    These kids are our future. THIS is how change happens. The NRA is quaking in their jackboots, and in total fear of this wave of DEMOCRACY. Safety before profits?? This is RADICAL.
  • Posts: 7,507
    And now we're hearing that there WAS more than one "good guy with a gun" on the scene at the time -- and that SEVERAL of them froze over in the crucial early stages of this horrible incident. I'm not pointing any fingers or flinging any blame. I'm certainly not trying to predict what MY actions would be in a hypothetical similar moment. My only intent is to bring this conversation back the main issue at hand: is America ever going to break the stranglehold the NRA has over the topic of gun control? It looks like the time could indeed be NOW...


    Relax! Statistically at least one out og fifty 'good guys' with a gun would be able to save the day. So we just need to make sure there are at least fifty people with guns in every classroom. The strategy is bullet proof! (Pun intended)

    Otherwise just give the job to @Thunderfinger. His bravery and capabilities knows no bounderies! He will know what to do! And he doesn't even need a gun, only a finger!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Da. палец !
  • jobo wrote: »

    Otherwise just give the job to @Thunderfinger. His bravery and capabilities knows no bounderies! He will know what to do! And he doesn't even need a gun, only a finger!

    Then by all means, give him the finger!
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,255
    Da. палец !

    And you know where you can stick that old boy.....
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Da. палец !

    Just as long as the other guy isn't carrying an assault finger.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Da. палец !

    Just as long as the other guy isn't carrying an assault finger.

    Fritzl is dead, if that is who you had in mind.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Da. палец !

    Just as long as the other guy isn't carrying an assault finger.

    Fritzl is dead, if that is who you had in mind.

    He was alive and well last time I checked and I think he used more than a finger.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,798
    Someone posted this on Facebook- "Defibrillators don't save people, PEOPLE save people. Defibrillators just make it a whole lot faster & easier."
  • Posts: 4,615
    "Addressing a gathering of 39 state governors at the White House, Trump said officers who were outside the school at the time of the shooting “weren’t exactly medal of honor winners”.

    “The way they performed was really a disgrace,” he added. “I really believe I’d run in there even if I didn’t have a weapon.”
    :
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