The BREXIT Discussion Thread.

1141517192045

Comments

  • Posts: 5,994
    And let's not forget theres also the Gibrtaltar situation to consider. Although I don't think it will change very much. After all, if Franco didn't invade during WW II, why would the current Spanish Government do it ?
  • Posts: 11,425
    fanbond123 wrote: »
    I don't think the vast majority of leavers/remainers were told about the potential problem of the Irish border before we had the referendum. I don't recall much or any mention of it in the pre-referendum tv debates/social media/tv and radio news. Anyway, that's all in the past. We're in a potential limbo state now with May trying to cling onto power and get her deal passed. I can't see her deal - even with EU concessions - getting passed. Who knows how this will end?! But I reckon Theresa May won't be in power for much longer!

    Totally impossible to say what will happen. I agree Mays days seem numbered but frankly who'd have guessed she'd last this long after her disastrous election fiasco. The Tories are deeply split and the last thing many of their MPs want is a leadership election. Don't be surprised if May somehow hangs on and gets some form of her Brexit deal through.

    Equally she could be gone by the New Year!
  • Posts: 4,619
    When will that incompetent hag finally resign? And no, I'm not talking about Barbara Broccoli this time.
  • Posts: 4,617
    May seems to be effectively holding the nation to ransom. Insisting that we will leave, insisting that her deal is the only deal and "running down the clock" so our options become more and more narrow and the situation more and more desperate.

    I don't think we, as a nation, fully realise yet, the damage she has done.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    edited December 2018 Posts: 984
    I agree that May has been an absolute disaster, whether you are a leaver or remainer. The problem is, what are the alternatives?

    I don't have anything against Labour per se. But not with Corbyn and his cronies at the helm. I shudder at the thought of them running the country.

    So what are the Conservative alternatives? Gove? Rees-Mogg? Johnson(another shudder).

    To be honest I blame this whole fiasco on David Cameron (and I voted for him). He and Osbourne would have been much tougher negotiators with the EU, but he threw his toys out of the pram when the Referendum didn't go his way, leaving people who aren't capable to pick up the pieces.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    Corbyn sound like a refreshing change to me.

    At least it's alternative not some watered down Tory Party like Tony suckered us all into back in 1997.

    The oppostion should be just that and not a paler diet version of the other side of the house.

    I know someone caring and wanting a fairer society, oh it makes me shudder to think of such a reality.
  • Posts: 4,044
    Leadership challenge has begun.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Corbyn sound like a refreshing change to me.

    At least it's alternative not some watered down Tory Party like Tony suckered us all into back in 1997.

    The oppostion should be just that and not a paler diet version of the other side of the house.

    I know someone caring and wanting a fairer society, oh it makes me shudder to think of such a reality.

    God....never never never put that creature in Government.
  • Posts: 4,617
    it's just a horrible mess, she should never have been elected as leader, the party went for an easy option when choosing her, a compromise that upset the least number of MPs and someone who the grassroot, cucumber sandwich, more tea vicar? brigade liked rather than a fully commited leaver who had some thunder in their belly,

    having said that, the list of candidates was pretty poor and that goes back to a longer term issue re lack of talent within the Commons
  • Posts: 19,339
    This is the worry for me atm.
    Where is a viable candidate,from ANY party ?

    In all my years I have never known a weaker bunch of MP's across the board.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Isn't this where leadership across the globe is faulting? Trump got elected partly because his opponents and their campaigns were weaker than a broken twig. In many European countries, it seems more time is spent on agreeing to form this or that coalition, rather than on actual leading. And Brexit has laid a stink bomb under British politics that some of our members could defuse faster than those in charge.

    A lack of viable candidates, electoral pushing and pulling, effective standstills, inability to work out a good plan, ... Democracy clearly has a downside to it too.
  • edited December 2018 Posts: 4,617
    It's something that the media don't seem to discuss but many more MPs seem to be career politicians whose sole aim is to climb the greasy pole rather than live a full life and commit to a politcal vision.

    Add to that, the media training and social media leverage that means that very few MPs actually say anything meaningful and have lost the abililty to actually connect with the voters. (similar to sports stars) This is reflected in the lack of great public speakers, just look at the dreadfully staged Party Conferences compared to the much more honest and dramatic conferences of the 80s.

    It started with Blair who put more focus on presentation, spin and image rather than a true left wing philosophical commitment. Matching that, we have a shallow media who jump on any MP for saying anything slightly out of line or even wearing the wrong type of clothing.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Corbyn sound like a refreshing change to me.

    At least it's alternative not some watered down Tory Party like Tony suckered us all into back in 1997.

    The oppostion should be just that and not a paler diet version of the other side of the house.

    I know someone caring and wanting a fairer society, oh it makes me shudder to think of such a reality.

    God....never never never put that creature in Government.

    That creature?

    I wonder where you've formed your opinion of the man but if you'd rather have the Tories in power than him tells me what I need to know.

    Either you've fallen for all the BS the media say about Corbyn or you really don't care much about a good percentage of the country have had to live through the crippling policies of this government.

    There's too much bias on this site to the right for my liking, Corbyn could do no worse than the Bullingdon set and Mayhem have done to this country.

    Definitely time for a change.
  • Posts: 4,617
    Corbyn has been very very passive throughout Brexit. Nobody really seems to know their stance/policy , it seems to change with the wind
  • Posts: 19,339
    Shardlake wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Shardlake wrote: »
    Corbyn sound like a refreshing change to me.

    At least it's alternative not some watered down Tory Party like Tony suckered us all into back in 1997.

    The oppostion should be just that and not a paler diet version of the other side of the house.

    I know someone caring and wanting a fairer society, oh it makes me shudder to think of such a reality.

    God....never never never put that creature in Government.

    That creature?

    I wonder where you've formed your opinion of the man but if you'd rather have the Tories in power than him tells me what I need to know.

    Either you've fallen for all the BS the media say about Corbyn or you really don't care much about a good percentage of the country have had to live through the crippling policies of this government.

    There's too much bias on this site to the right for my liking, Corbyn could do no worse than the Bullingdon set and Mayhem have done to this country.

    Definitely time for a change.

    You know me so well.
    Your insight into my psyche is frightening.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    One could argue that all sounds like the words of a Corbynista.

    @barryt007 put it perfectly with this:
    barryt007 wrote: »
    n all my years I have never known a weaker bunch of MP's across the board.

    Most of the prominent politicians are more like caricatures of politicians.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited December 2018 Posts: 18,281

    Yes, a Red historian, certainly. Totally unbiased then, on both a future leadership contest and the EU Referedum result I see. Perhaps he forgets that Winston Churchill took over at a time of even greater national crisis when there was no leadership contest at all within the Tory Party. As I seem to recall, that didn't work out too badly at all for the future of the country at large...

    The current system being so derided didn't come into force until the Douglas-Home Rules of 1965 following disquiet in the Party and among the electorate with how the "Magic Circle" chose Lord Home as leader in November 1963 and therefore both the Tory party leader and prime minister.

    Anyway, it's all most likely academic by this stage as I expect May will win the confidence vote tonight. Such a change of leadership also applies to Labour who made James Callaghan the prime minister in 1976 after Harold Wilson stood down. The electorate also had no choice on that occasion, something our Red historian conveniently omits to mention!
  • Posts: 7,653
    For me the current crisis feels more like a created crisis by the more conservative members that really only would be satisfied by a hard Brexit. The timing is too much aimed at that,
    But that is just me thinking and not trusting any politician.
  • DoctorKaufmannDoctorKaufmann Can shoot you from Stuttgart and still make it look like suicide.
    Posts: 1,261
    Apart from SPECTRE all Bond movies would work with the word Brexit in it. Only BREXITCRE sounds crappy.
  • Posts: 12,526
    The EU re-iterates that they will not budge. So? It's time to say tare up the last 2 farcical years and head for WTO rules. Regardless of what you think, the UK side is an elected government, the EU side is not elected and more like a club of priveledge.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    edited December 2018 Posts: 9,041
    RogueAgent wrote: »
    The EU re-iterates that they will not budge. So? It's time to say tare up the last 2 farcical years and head for WTO rules. Regardless of what you think, the UK side is an elected government, the EU side is not elected and more like a club of priveledge.
    That the EU side is not elected is clearly bullshit. Apart from the fact that Juncker was elected as the leading candidate of the European People's Party (the coalition of center-right parties from the member states) in the latest EP election, it is usually the same people that insist the most that their member state should have a veto over anything not to their liking that on the other hand insist that it is all non-democratic. The EU is at least as democratic as a system that (in the US) provides for an equal number of senators in the upper house for every state, whatever its size, or the UK system of having an upper house in the House of Lords, where I do not see any democratic legitimacy whatsover. To call the EU leadership "a club of privilege" (I do not repeat your spelling here) in that light is simply ridiculous.

    The EU election system is a brilliant compromise of those two opposing forces, and as democratic as it can get under the circumstances. Yes, I would like to have a simple majority system, but can you imagine it without safeguards for the smaller member states against being overruled by the big ones? No way.

    But of course feel free to get out. Just don't expect to be able to pick any further cherries after the EU made the mistake of giving Maggie Thatcher "her money back". I'd truly be delighted if everything works out fine for both sides, but don't blame the EU if it doesn't.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    So she survived the vote, but will resign later, does not have support of her own Brexit plan (and apparently will never have it). But I keep seeing mentions of another "people's vote" ... is that the same as a 2nd referendum? Is that at all likely? I'm an outsider (glaringly obvious, I know) but I do care. I have many friends in the UK.

    The EU recently said Britain could change their mind, cancel this. Is that correct?


    Because it does seem to me that another vote is the only genuinely fair thing to do - due to so many lies and corruption/manipulation that were done with the first referendum. It shouldn't count. If people voted one way because they had incorrect information, were lied to (not just one or two small points), it matters. It does not seem that Brexit now is genuinely "the will of the people" at all. So I am asking my UK friends to say more about possibilities that are real as of today. I'd appreciate it.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited December 2018 Posts: 18,281
    Yes, the "People's Vote" is the same thing as a second EU referendum. I think it is a very bad idea as if we get the same result again, then what?

    A third referendum or as many as it takes until the Remainers get the outcome they want? That doesn't sound like true democracy to me. It's more like Mob Rule in fact, only being democrats when you get the outcome you want.
  • 001001
    Posts: 1,575
    She would make a good bond villain. :)

    iLztyn3.jpg

    photo-1538627516
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    001 wrote: »
    She would make a good bond villain. :)

    iLztyn3.jpg

    photo-1538627516

    I think you mean the EU.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    edited December 2018 Posts: 984
    In practice I understand why people want a second referendum, as I don't think anyone really understood the what's/how's and when's of it all.

    The problem is, where does it end? Will we get a third, fourth or even fifth? Would we consistently need another vote if enough people didn't like the results of general elections?

    I voted to leave and would so again in a second referendum. I would rather stay and have the UK push for reforms in the EU, but without the backing of France and Germany, who seem quite happy with the Status Quo, nothing will change.
  • edited December 2018 Posts: 4,617
    One of the issues with the debate is that people on both sides are making sweeping statements with no shred of evidence.

    "I don't think anyone really understood the what's/how's and when's of it all."

    So over 33 1/2 million voted and nobody understood ? Not one or two people? How can anyone make such a claim?

    @Roadphill If remain had won by 2%, would you honestly be calling for a second vote ? Or would that somehow show that the voters did understand the issues? And how will we know that an ignorant batch of voters (it only takes a couple of percent) will give the wrong result again? Perhaps a third or fourth vote until we get the result that a truely educated electorate would choose?

    Respecting the will of the majority does not have a caveat - "as long as they agree with me"

  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    patb wrote: »
    One of the issues with the debate is that people on both sides are making sweeping statements with no shred of evidence.

    "I don't think anyone really understood the what's/how's and when's of it all."

    So over 33 1/2 million voted and nobody understood ? Not one or two people? How can anyone make such a claim?

    @Roadphill If remain had won by 2%, would you honestly be calling for a second vote ? Or would that somehow show that the voters did understand the issues? And how will we know that an ignorant batch of voters (it only takes a couple of percent) will give the wrong result again? Perhaps a third or fourth vote until we get the result that a truely educated electorate would choose?

    Respecting the will of the majority does not have a caveat - "as long as they agree with me"

    I was, and still am a leaver @patb If you had read my post correctly you would no that. Also I simply said I understand the calls for a second referendum, but don't agree with them.
This discussion has been closed.