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Well, both sides are wrong.
"They versus us". "This is how we see them." Not sure which constructive elements Gert was trying to bring to this table with a youtube clip aiming at the intelligence of 5-year old. It's neither funny (it really isn't) nor does it help this discussion in any way.
The stupidity of hiding behind one's flag like it means something and pointing fingers at others is part of the whole problem. There won't be any winners in this; Brexit will set up all back several years/decades. So let us all, please, calm down a bit and show that we at least are better than Farage and Johnson and all the rest.
Over the last 20 years or so, historians have come 'round to a revised verdict on Chamberlain.
His biggest cock-up was probably the haphazard, bungled Norway operation. (Then again, Mr. Churchill had quite a few of those as well.)
The "peace in our time" deal at Munich in 1938 was, in the final analysis, very likely the CORRECT call for Britain.
Had Britain gone to war with Germany in '38, there would have been no year-long build up of RAF fighter strength/production, and no Chain Home radar early warning system in place (as there would be in 1940).
During the period between the Munich conference and the outbreak of WWII, Chamberlain approved a massive funding increase in the RAF, radar technology and the nascent early warning system.
Jees @DarthDimi. Just a bit of humour. I thought it was very funny. Which sometimes is needed when we discuss such serious matters. I'm sorry if I have offended people. I thought it was hilarious, and it was actually slightly pro-Brexit too (making Labour speaker John Bercow look foolish). Who would have guessed something like that could come from a staunch anti-Brexit man like me :-)?
You are now actually doing the same, by sticking brutally one's flag up my arse. If there's something I can do is relativate. And I think humour is the right ingrediënt for that. Let me be clear. I am pro-EU and pro-UK. You now throw me unwillingly in one camp, because if you read my comments you know damn well that I think Brexit is stupidity in its purest form. And that Brexit will only have losers.
So again sorry if I have offended people with this bit of humour. As long as you know it came from a good heart.
And people say Corbyn is a chicken =)) :))
Embarrassing just does not come close!
OMG, I really thought the man was Labour. Ha, well, ehm……still fitting bit of comedy then on this page :-P.
I remember the then Leader of the Opposition David Cameron making the joke that Bercow's own party had long ago more or less thought he had left them and joined Labour.
And link to view supreme court live ... https://www.supremecourt.uk/live/court-01.html
People are making too much out of this. Even if government is convicted and parliament is called together, they still need to try to do something in 30 days they didn't manage in 3 years. A 'no deal brexit' blockade isn't helping, the country will only remain in limbo whilst the rest of Europe is preparing for their exit.
That's by only looking at the British side. Don't forget the Germans weren't that strong at all in 1940 when they rolled into the rest of Western Europe. Their tactics however were completely new. I doubt the Germans could've mustered an invasion fleet in '39. The idea is that Chamberlain believed Hitler in his willingness to keep the peace, which of course he wasn't. That's what lost him his job.
He deserves credit for that.
Bottom line... While it certainly sucked for the Czechs, the Munich Agreement bought valuable time for Britain to ready its armed forces for the coming clash with Germany (and Italy).
Well, Hitler didn't want war with Britain initially at least. He was under the (false) impression that Britain would give him a free hand in empire-building in Europe if he left the British Empire alone. However, he must have known that his invasion of Poland on 1 September 1939 would ultimately lead to war. If he didn't know before he certainly knew after the ultimatum given by Britain and France. Hitler was the aggressor, not Churchill who wasn't even in the Cabinet at that time, but merely a backbencher.
Again in a time when the whole world was arming up, I'm not convinced it's such an achievement. And not keeping it's promises when it comes to the integrity of the Czeck republic, personally I find that desturbing. It gave the nazi's the chance to keep on building their war machine. Together with the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact it really gave them the time and space to push foreward. I don't know if they'd realised with the invasion of Poland th French and British would finally keep their word. I don't think it really matters. They could do little against the nazi's anyway as they were positioned on the wrong side and they were certainly not willing to invade Germany because of it. All in all I think the only effect was that Britain showed to be unreliable. Same as with Ukraine today. When the Ukrainians gave up their nuclear weapons the USA, France, Britain and Russia all signed for the country's borders integrity. And what happened when the Russians broke their word? Absolutely nothing. Munich pact all over again.
- Economic Sanctions against Russia (They've been hurting ever since)
- Economic aid to Ukraine
- Russia kicked out of G8 conference of nations (now the G7)
- Promised military aid to Ukraine
- Stepped up aid to/deployment in NATO nations on the Russian border
... until Donald Trump came along, that is. (Trump doesn't even care about the nearly 300 people murdered in that airliner shoot-down.)
Chamberlain made mistakes, for sure. But he didn't cheerfully, enthusiastically bend over for Hitler like Trump does for Putin.
As an American, Trump fills me with utter loathing and disgust.
Satire on the BBC, while it's very funny and the above shows the ridiculousness of the whole comparing getting through Brexit to winning 2 world wars.
The reality is their news coverage is a different story and they fail to report on the current government objectively and you can literally see that who ever is in charge is pushing an agenda
The BBC News these days, it's turned into a Party Political Broadcast for the Conservative Party.
The way Kussenberg just gives Johnson's bluster and blather short shrift and then everything is in turmoil in the Labour Party.
My Wife only today tried to raise a complaint regarding the BBC's news coverage concerning Brexit and the bias towards the Tories. Got to the page wrote out her complaint and pressed to post it and what came back was that this service is temporarily not available, convenient and when they do answer complaints, they double down on their coverage and claim what is clearly not objectionable is good journalism.
Long gone are the days of the BBC supposedly being lefty, the news just used to be the facts, instead we get Tory BBC journalists spouting their opinion.
Kussenberg is far more explicit on twitter and it's pretty clear where her political allegiances lie, also Nick Robinson previous Chief Political correspondent was president of the Conservative club at his University.
We aren't at the FOX news stage yet but it makes you wonder if we do go out on a no deal what will happen, Johnson seems to be gradually shifting towards the Trump like rhetoric even now.
A number of studies have also shown not just the BBC but mainstream media in general regularly reports on the Labour Party and Jeremy Corbyn and a lot of it is just not true.
My Wife and I wonder why we are paying for a TV licence to have biased one sided views pass for news on the BBC.
Yes they still produce great drama's and documentaries but their supposed factual programming is highly questionable.
That being said, why is this on the Brexit Discussion Thread?
But I guess not having oil themselves doesn't help the Ukrainians.
@Shardlake i don't think it's really possible if you want to give context to the news not to pick a side. It's such a mess on both sides of the isle right now.
100% agree. Funny how things change with all the criticism the BBC has gotten over the years from the Dailymail etc for being too left wing biased but I guess at the end of the day it is still yet another old boy institution, so current more old school Labour is probably too principled and status quo challenging for them. Funnily enough Corbyn posted this on twitter earlier, you've probably already seen it @Shardlake but it shines a light on the bias you were talking about pretty well so I'll post it for everyone
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1175791983962591233?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
Notice how he has no problem with getting those questions himself, he welcomes it even because that's the sort of man he is. But he wants his opposition to be held to the same level of press scrutiny. Given how his opposition are in power and running the country into the ground, I think that's more than fair.
@thelivingroyale no I hadn't seen it before but I have now, definitely illustrates the point brilliantly.
Good point. From what I've heard, staff working at BBC News are told not to say anything negative about Brexit. This is why Peston left the BBC - because he was basically told he couldn't report objectively on what was happening any more and had to pretend Brexit was awesome.
BBC reporters who even imply there might be problems with Brexit are slapped down by their editors.
You have to remember that the BBC is basically a state broadcaster and lives in fear of whichever government is in power. They basically tow the govt. line, which at the moment means pretending that Brexit, despite all the evidence, is actually really a very sensible and normal idea.