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PussyNoMore thinks that the size of the Chinese market would not be lost on the Werther brand owners let alone eon.
Indeed, eon will know that it is a fact that China overtook the USA in 2017 in terms of number of screens and is very similar in terms of revenues.
In fact, China's Dalian Wanda Group is the biggest cinema operator in the world and owns both the UK's Odeon and UCI cinemas.
The Wizard may also be interested to know that PussyNoMore has been to the cinema on multiple occasions in Beijing - including one Bond movie - but, in case he ever makes the trip, he should know you don't actually go to an Odeon, you go to a Wanda.
If he goes to a Wanda and looks around, he will find the average age about 30 (this is speculative because it depends on the movie. Bond probably skews younger as Casino Royale was the first Bond film to be approved by the Chinese censor ).
Precious few of them are there with their middle aged parents or their old grandparents There is also not a Wether's original in sight.
PussyNoMore thinks that eon knows all of this and they will know that their core competitor is increasingly the superhero.
I get what you're saying though about Bond having a different audience and I definitely agree. I've seen TLD and all the Brosnan and Craig movies at the cinema in England and the last two in Wales, and there's definitely a crowd there that you don't get for your normal blockbuster. Bond is a proper event over here and it appeals to older people in a way that a Marvel film wouldn't simply because it's been around for so long.
I think there's definitely some audience overlap because they're both big films but I also agree that Bond isn't necessarily in competition with superhero movies. It's to do with genre. People don't go into a Bond film expecting something like Marvel even though some of them might enjoy those films, so EON shouldn't worry about aping them.
@PussyNoMore Maybe it's because I started out on the films but even though I've read the books and enjoyed them, and would love to see what they haven't used yet at the cinema (I'd kill for a decent YOLT adaptation) I don't think the movies always have to strictly stick to them. You can argue Roger Moore was miscast all you like but if it wasn't for him setting himself apart from Connery who knows if they'd even still be making them. Well with all the reboots and remakes happening today we'd have gotten a new Bond eventually but I doubt we'd have had a steady stream of ongoing movies. Bond has always thrived off change so as long as the basics are still there I'm open to different takes on it.
I am arguing here that to say there is a faction of a vast majority of Bond fans who only like shitty action and mostly live in China is extremely overstated.
Yes the Chinese market is expanding at a ridiculous rate and yes the Chinese market tends to like utter dross. I never argued against either of those points.
When I claimed the superhero audience was different to the Bond audience I was addressing this point which has nothing to with the Chinese audience: And, although perhaps not in Beijing, the simple fact is you don't get old codgers at a Marvel film like you do a Bond film and you don't get anywhere near the same level of repeat geek business at a Bond film as you do a Marvel film. There is of course a lot of the same general audience members at both who don't really give a toss but the outliers are very different.
There seem to be 3 general points PussyNoMore has raised:
1. The current Bond audience and superhero audience are the same - I would refute this point and say that although there is a large overlap there is a significant difference in age and gender demographics and repeat business. Of course at the rate the Chinese market is growing that may change but see point 3.
2. Bond fans have split into two 'factions' one of which, comprising the majority, has never read Fleming, likes mindless action and largely hail from China - I would again refute this. Within the Bond fan community (of which we here are surely the largest representative group?) I don't see much evidence of the schism PussyNoMore suggests, I see even less evidence that most fans are Fleming ignorant and even less again that a lot of them come from China.
3. The Chinese audience is growing and EON will take note - I would certainly agree with this and when you look at some of the rubbish the Chinese lap up it is terrifying to think where the series might end up if they pander to this rather infantile market that flocks only to Fast and Furious and Transformers films from amongst Hollywood's output. Given China's gross for the past 3 Bond's has been:
QOS - $21,009,412 ( a feeble 500k more than Australia which has a sliver of it's population)
SF - $59,234,352 (1mil less than France)
SP - $83,509,789 (only bettered by UK and US)
It is hardly very far fetched to suggest that by B26 they will be the biggest audience and Werthers will be replaced by fried chicken feet. Quite literally, depressing food for thought.
Again, this is your chance to say whatever you would have done differently with the film, so things like; plot changes, character additions or subtractions. Anything you like. People will be given the chance to give their responses within 7 DAYS from today (this may change so let me know if you want me to extend the time for longer) until the discussion moves on to the next James Bond film. This will run until we reach SKYFALL as a discussion for SPECTRE already exists.
Looking forward to hearing what you guys think.
ALSO: I'd really love to start seeing some original ideas regarding story and casting that people would add, as well what they would remove. Get as creative as you want. For example, would you have given Scaramanga a different henchman? If so, what characteristics do they have? Would you have added a different Bond girl? Go crazy :)
But unlike DAF and LALD, the source novel--Fleming's weakest book--doesn't provide very much alternative material. Preliminary suggestions:
* Change the director and scriptwriter: Hamilton and Tom Mankiewicz had outlived their usefulness.
* Don't rush the damn thing. There's a reason why Barry, Binder, and Maibuam's contributions seem hurried.
* Cut the energy crisis plot. Even by Macguffin standards it's boring.
* Cut J.W. Pepper's completely unbelievable cameo. Enough said!
* Cut that motherf***ing slide whistle!
* Write Mary Goodnight as a resourceful female character and Bond's former secretary, not a bimbo with a brain smaller than Stegosaurus's.
* Remove Bond slapping Anders. This is a weak attempt to imitate Connery's brutality and doesn't fit Moore, who handled ladies with charm, not physical intimidation. It makes him Moore look like a creep, not a macho man. Bond does not slap women in Fleming, and there was never a good reason for Connery and Lazenby to do so either.
* Don't bump off Anders so soon. Her death should come as a genuine blow to Bond's pride and spirit, evidence that Scaramanga will destroy everything in his way, no matter how well Bond tries to guard it.
* If Scaramanga has to have a large and stereotypical evil villain's lair, let him have more than one henchman to operate it. Trying to explain the short staffing just emphasizes the limited budget.
* Recast Scaramanga. I realize this sounds blasphemous, but I found Christopher Lee too gentlemanly and dull. Lee was so relieved to have a non-horror part that he forgot to be intimidating; he forgot there is an underlying horror in all the great Bond villains, who are monsters in human form. I would have much preferred Mankiewicz's first pick for Scaramanga, Jack Palance, an excellent tonal contrast with Moore, an icy beast of an actor. An even icier choice: Clint Eastwood, who would have made audiences truly wonder if Bond could win. Scaramanga should be played as an inhuman killing machine, a force of nature whose only human emotion is bloodlust. Bond's innate humanity must become a liability in his battle to overcome this monster.
* More needed to be done with the film's settings. Why not have a shootout on the wreck of the Queen Elizabeth, instead of making it MI6's headquarters? Why not have Bond climb the spectacularly shaped island in Phuket to reach Scaramanga's lair, instead of getting there by plane?
* Bond and Scaramanga need a genuine showdown. We need to see some real marksmanship from both characters. No funhouse trickery and vanishing acts, which diminish Scaramanga's powers.
* The film would also benefit from a chase scene midway through that involves Scaramanga trying to repeatedly assassinate Bond and coming closer each time--something reminiscent of The Gauntlet. My problem with TMWTGG is that it doesn't have much suspense or danger. You never say to yourself "Oh crap, how is Bond going to get out of this?" We need a few scenes where it looks like Scaramanga has really got Bond by the balls. And after a certain point the film needs to become a relentless, harrowing game of cat and mouse, not a leisurely pastiche of earlier Bond films.
* One scene from the film that feels absolutely right: Scaramanga caressing Anders's face with his gun. Another scene or two implying his creepy pistol fetishism would have helped make the character even more of a monster.
Lose JW.
Drastically rewrite Goodnight.
Do we even need the solex at all? Just make it about Bond v Scaramanga.
Don't make Hip such an imbecile.
Dial down the shitty comic moments such as the sumo wrestlers arse cheeks and elephants pushing people into canals.
And for Christ's sake axe Hip's nieces.
Obviously not a perfect Bond film, I do have issues with some elements. The first is Scaramanga's Funhouse. This odd little "leftover" from the trippy sixties have always bored me. A different alternative to this maze/dual room would have been welcome.
Nick Nack. Just never cared much for this character. A comic relief of sorts, this role would be better if portrayed seriously, at least. It's a bit awkward that end scene aboard the junk, don't we think?
Mary Goodnight: This is a secret operative? This character is just bad, and Ekland only works as eye candy in a role which could easily have been written as stronger and more believable. In contrast Anders is the interesting character. The Severine of the 70's.
The solex thing just doesn't give us anything. Would have been better if they wrote it out, and fleshed out other aspects of the story instead.
J.W. Pepper is too much of a comic relief. They could have cut that part completely, along with the boring boat chase, Hip's nieces and other unnecessary small elements.
The settings do (although not a big problem for me) look a bit uninspired. Can't really put my finger on why, but they just look a bit bland in this film.
Finally, there could have been done more out of the big showdown and other scenes between Bond and Scaramanga. No doubt Moore and Lee could use it.
Agreed. The Solex was Maibaum. I'd really like to see Mankiewicz's first crack at the script. Apparently he very much wanted to have Bond v. Scaramanga at the center of it. Going back to Jack Palance, I believe Mankiewicz cited SHANE and its gunfight as inspiration (possibly why he saw Palance as Scaramanga).
I think Roger Moore is near perfect in this film and it has an exotic atmosphere which appeals to me.
Hip's kung fu nieces aren't a bother, and neither is Sheriff JW.
I don't mind the violence towards Anders, which I consider necessary under the circumstances. As I've said elsewhere, this is a tough business, and Bond was up against it thinking (incorrectly at the time) that Scaramanga was after him. He had to apply the necessary pressure to extract results in short order, not pussyfoot around. He did what he had to. At least he didn't break her arm.
Heck, I don't even mind that the annoying brat was thrown in the khlong despite being promised a reward earlier.
I quite like the slightly sleazy undertone which is at times apparent in Barry's score, in some of the humour & in Lulu's belter of a title track.
These last three Hamilton entries get a lot of flack but I love them, zany warts and all.
So nothing to change from my end.
In my old age and near senility, I am more accepting...
I grew up in the 70s and early 80s, but thanks to Dad, I was always a Connery man. First film ever seen (and it was on CBS (i think) Saturday Night at the Movies), was TB when I was 4.
So when I grew older, I continued and became passionate about Connery-Bond, and only accepted RM as Bond from FYEO and on. I think he was showing a little gravitas in the role that I needed-- a little more weariness (I knew Connery was younger than RM, but he always seemed older).
During these years, I didn't like LALD nor TMWTGG at all (I did like TSWLM, and never took to MR)...
But now, I'm at the old age of 44, and I think Moore showed quite a physical side in TMWGG-- he was a big man and why they didn't utilize his size to fill a physical presence is sad...
And, although I give this film much more respect than previous years, I would change it...
The novel may not be Fleming's best, but I strangely adore it, and think it is more cinematic than the film we got.
Bond is given the task to assassinate the man who British Intelligence thinks has assassinated some of their agents.
Disguised as Mark Hazard, 007 becomes a suspicious ally (secretary) for Francisco, infiltrating the assassin's organization so he can get closer to the man (to kill him)...
Isn't all this a lovely set-up for TMWTGG??
I suppose it only took them 15 years to do it in LTK, which is LALD the novel mashed into TMWTGG novel...
Maibaum's first draft (after taking over for Mankiewicz) only had J.W. Pepper in for a brief cameo. His version had a local Thai man in the car (he was looking to buy it when Bond steals the car). The joke, such as it was, had the Thai man sitting calmly throughout the chase. He says he wants to buy the car after the chase ends.
Replace the slide whistle with Sir Roger's legendary 'OOOHHRRROOOOHH" sound.
That WOULD have been funny. A shame they changed it.
On this rare occasion, PussyNoMore finds himself in slight disagreement with Revelator only insomuch as although he agrees with him that TMWTGG is far from Fleming’s best novel, he does think that it is extremely cinematic and would make an excellent transition to the screen.
The opening alone, with Bond trying to assassinate ‘M’, would be for one of the strongest pre-title sequence of any Bond film.
When PussyNoMore re- reads this novel, he often imagines a disheveled Dalton making his debut as 007. It would have been a perfect vehicle for him. Maybe his brainwashing at the hands of Smersh could have been a pre - pre - title sequence?
Casting Eastwood as Scaramanga would have been serendipity. It was he that Pussy pictured as Scaramanga when he first read the book.
Beyond that, although Fleming’s novel has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese - we have to give the genius a break, he was in very bad health - it does make infinitely more sense than the complete abberation that staggered onto our screens.
Simply going back to the source with its London and Jamaica locations and following its plot lines would do the trick.
Adding Dalton and Eastwood as the leads and Terence Young as the director would have ensured something quite special.
Oh and one more thing, the whole deal was, in no small part, about a single action, gold plated, Colt .45. Can we please ensure that Clint’s Scaramanga has one and not that effeminate screw together nonsense. Eastwood would hardly be the fastest gun in the world if he was busy trying to screw that paraphernalia together !
Finally one thing Pussy would keep is Barry’s music albeit He’d have him get Black to write a decent song. And Lulu, please .....but there again she did fit in with the travesty of it all.
I seriously question how someone who can defend that scene can be classed as a Bond fan.
When you hear all the usual suspects for the worst moment of the series such as double take pigeon, tsunami surfing and brothergate this often manages to fly under the radar.
Quite possibly the worst 2 minutes of the series:- utter inanity which is only funny if you are a 5 year old or a fan of Mrs Brown's Boys and then because they put this in (I presume in the original script, before someone came up with this abomination, Bond just legged it to the boat?) they have to finish it off with one of the worst pieces of writing in the series by having f**knut Hip drive off and abandon Bond rather than waiting another 2 seconds for him to get in.
I think even the tsunami surfing might actually be better than this because at least that is Bondian in concept and it's just execution that lets it down.
Yes, that looks far more interesting than what we got. Was hoping it would turn up as a deleted scene extra, but no such luck.
Bravo Pussy! Virtually agree with all you say here.
TMWTGG what would I have done different? Probably every-bloody-thing, but for starters, hire a different director (I can't believe the GH was also lined up for TSWLM!), anybody but Guy-Bloody-Hamilton!
We disagree even less than you think--there are parts of the novel that would indeed transfer well to the screen, but I avoided discussing them earlier because they wouldn't have worked in a 1973 version of TMWTGG.
The assassination attempt on M, for example, is a great scene that entirely deserves to be filmed (I agree it would have been "one of the strongest pre-title sequences of any Bond film"), but it would need to be set up by having Bond disappear at the end of the previous film. Since this didn't happen in the film of LALD, it couldn't be set up for TMWTGG. But perhaps it can be used the next time they introduce a new Bond, especially if Craig's last film has him disappearing or appearing to die.
Getting back to how a mid-1970s TMWTGG could be changed, I'm afraid going back to Jamaica would be impossible, since the previous film was shot there. But perhaps the brothel scene from the novel could have been transferred to Macau or Thailand. Plenty of brothels there!
The other great scene from the book is Bond's refusal of a knighthood. This also deserves to filmed, but wouldn't have worked in 1973, when Moore was only on his second Bond film (though it would have worked in his last). Perhaps they can use it in Craig's swansong?
Asking Terence Young to return would have been a wise choice. So would asking Peter Hunt instead, who had coaxed fine performances from Moore in Gold, The Persuaders, and Shout at the Devil, and was a better action director than Hamilton or Young.
Of course, in a perfect world TMWTGG would not have been filmed when it was.
Too true. PussyNoMore is an avid reader of thrillers and like Revelator, he loves Fleming but has long held the view that most of the movies have done him a disservice and TMWTGG is a particularly bad culprit.
The Pussy is sure that he would violently agree with Revelator on a huge range of Bond issues.
I'm quite a ways on from being five, but perhaps I don't mind the scene because I first saw the film when I was just a few years older than that. So it's quite possible this is why the kid in me still has a blast with the whole sequence.
I certainly can sympathize with those who can't forgive the stupidity of Hip leaving Bond behind when all he had to do was wait a second more. I've always rationalized that moment on the basis that he felt Bond was a 'big boy' and could take care of himself from then on. If he was unable to outrun a few shoeless joes in martial arts gear then perhaps the OO status should be rescinded ASAP. After all, Hip and his nieces got him out of the unwinnable spot he was in and rebalanced the odds. Now it was up to Bond to do the rest.
Additionally, these Hamilton entries are full of their share of silly and inane moments. Blofeld in drag in DAF, exploding Kananga in LALD, and of course JW in TMWTGG. It's all par for the course in these early 70s films, and for most of Rog's era for that matter. I just roll with it, despite the sheer idiocy of some moments. Rog makes it all work.