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007: What would you have done differently?

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    AlexanderWaverly wrote: »
    FWIW, in the second draft of the script, there is no Aston Martin. Bond steals a police car instead. As a result, he and Kara get to the frozen lake more quickly (because there's no sequence showing the Aston in action).

    Once at the lake, an "ice yacht" comes by. Bond steals that as he tries to get to the border.
    I may have actually preferred it this way. Simpler and less gadgetry suits Dalton's style better imho.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    edited May 2018 Posts: 3,262
    TLD is my favorite post-1960s Bond film and such a vast night and day type improvement over its highly disappointing immediate predecessor that I'd be reluctant to change much of it, even its lesser elements. Koskov and Whitaker are criticized for being relatively weak villains but their plan is on a much smaller scale than ones by the likes of Goldfinger, Blofeld, Drax or 006 so that aspect doesn't bother me. Kara seems to be catching a lot of flack here but I've long been a fan of both her character and Maryam d'Abo's take on her. I see her as a Mary Ann in a film series better known for its Gingers. John Terry's Leiter doesn't bother me either since he only has 2 brief scenes so his role is more like a cameo anyway. I wouldn't even change the now controversial (though it wasn't back in 1987) aspect of Bond being allied with the Afghan resistance against the Russians. Sure it dates the film but I see it as giving TLD an historical time capsule of the global geopolitical time period when the film was new aspect.
    Revelator wrote: »
    Going in a different direction, I sometimes wonder what the film might have been like if Kara really had been a top KGB sniper, as she was in Fleming's original short story (there she was known only as "Trigger"). Obviously this would have resulted in a much different movie, but it could have been a very interesting one. Various scenarios could be spun from it: Bond and Trigger finding themselves repeatedly assigned against each other, with a twisted love affair developing between the two assasins. Unlike the film of TSWLM, where XXX was rather cuddly and never seemed that deadly, Trigger would have to be portrayed as an honest-to-God killer and very good at her job.
    Perhaps there would be a sad finale where Trigger is jailed or fatally punished by the KGB for her failure. Or perhaps both she and Bond ultimately choose patriotism over love and the film ends where it began, with Bond assigned to shoot Trigger before she kills someone else--and this time having no choice but to kill her, albeit with deep sadness afterward.

    I love TLD as it is but this scenario you put forward would've made an intriguing premise for another Bond film(TWINE, perhaps?) As we all know, EON was very reluctant to end a Bond film in such a manner during the 1962-2002 time period with the obvious exception to that rule being OHMSS.
    Remington wrote: »
    .Recast Felix. Maybe with David Hedison. A little continuity never hurt anyone.

    I wish Hedison's Leiter had appeared in more of Moore's Bond films and Lee Horsley(better known as 1980s millionaire cowboy detective Matt Houston) had played the role of Leiter during the Dalton and Brosnan eras.
    Remington wrote: »
    Don't have Kara screaming "James" so much during the climax.

    At least she did it less often than Stacy Sutton in the previous film.
    Remington wrote: »
    Still a 9.5/10 film in my book.

    Agreed.

  • bondsumbondsum
    Posts: 3,333
    I agree, I really like @Revelator's take on TLD rather than the damsel in distress route that was finally taken. It certainly would have been more in-keeping with Fleming's short story but expanded upon.

    I'm assuming that the origins of Bond pitch that Wilson and Maibaum wanted to try was with a much younger actor in place of Dalton?
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    I’ve always liked the idea of Oliver Reed as Whitaker (obviously rewriting the character somewhat and making him British rather than American).

    The thought of he and John Rys-Davis facing off each other is wonderful.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    I’ve always liked the idea of Oliver Reed as Whitaker (obviously rewriting the character somewhat and making him British rather than American).

    The thought of he and John Rys-Davis facing off each other is wonderful.
    That's more like it. Don Baker lacked gravitas in my view, and that's something Reed would have brought in spades.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    JDB just seemed to lack any real threat to me. He plays the final confrontation with Dalton well enough but it’s not something you are waiting to see.

    Necros is the one you are waiting for Bond to face.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2018 Posts: 23,883
    One of Dalton's best scenes in TLD is with Rhys-Davies, who is quite a scene chewing actor with a commanding voice & presence. One felt that he was almost begging for someone like that to spar with throughout the film and allow him to raise his game. He got it in LTK with Davi.

    Perhaps controversially, I think the same is true of the female leads in both films.

    Give Dalton a Craig film level cast in both his entries and both films would be far better, and he in turn a more widely appreciated Bond imho.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    Not much i'd change in TLD. It's one of my favourites and damn near perfect in my opinion.

    The only thing that needs changing is the Russian Jailer's accent. He's so obviously a scouser its ludicrous. A simple bit of dubbing would have sorted it.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    The only thing that needs changing is the Russian Jailer's accent. He's so obviously a scouser its ludicrous. A simple bit of dubbing would have sorted it.
    I can't believe I forgot about this chap. Truly awful to the point of being unintentionally hilarious.
  • SatoriousSatorious Brushing up on a little Danish
    Posts: 233
    Agree with a lot of the comments here. I probably wouldn't change too much in the first half (up to the Bond/Pushkin confrontation), all generally solid! The second half is where this film falls apart (particularly the Afghanistan part). The choice of actor for Felix is poor, Koskov and Whittaker are weak villains, the ending needed to be more exciting/dramatic. One thing I'd keep but change for all subsequent entries is the poster art. TLD was the last time there was a truly decent film poster.

    I watched Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom last night with the kids. Surprised me how much they pilfered from it for TLD (eg. plane running out of fuel, motors stopping, drift aimlessly, escaping out the back via some means of transportation - even the Aston Martin/Cello chase feels a bit like them sliding down the mountain in the dinghy). Some of it even looked like a shot for shot copy.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Satorious wrote: »
    I watched Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom last night with the kids. Surprised me how much they pilfered from it for TLD (eg. plane running out of fuel, motors stopping, drift aimlessly, escaping out the back via some means of transportation - even the Aston Martin/Cello chase feels a bit like them sliding down the mountain in the dinghy). Some of it even looked like a shot for shot copy.
    It's a good point. I've always maintained that there is a lot of Spielberg Indy influence in the later Glen entries (post-FYEO). It's even there in the lorry finale in LTK and in the mine sequence in AVTAK (which also owes a bit to Roger Moore's Gold). A bit of friendly rivalry probably was at play, given Indy was Spielberg/Lucas's answer to Bond and was a massive hit.
  • SatoriousSatorious Brushing up on a little Danish
    Posts: 233
    Agreed. Kamal's lair in Octopussy probably influenced Pankot Palace, and of course the sheep's eye scene almost certainly influenced the dinner scene in TOD. By TLD it seems Bond was stealing more from Indy, rather than the other way around.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    edited May 2018 Posts: 2,252
    I agree with the comments above about John Rys-Davis. Having Gogol would have been an excellent conclusion to his arc but having Pushkin instead didn't make me miss Gogol
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    It’s a shame we never saw Pushkin again after TLD.
  • bondsumbondsum
    Posts: 3,333
    Satorious wrote: »
    Agreed. Kamal's lair in Octopussy probably influenced Pankot Palace, and of course the sheep's eye scene almost certainly influenced the dinner scene in TOD. By TLD it seems Bond was stealing more from Indy, rather than the other way around.
    Absolutely. I can still recall siting there in the theatre watching Temple of Doom and thinking they've stolen the Octopussy Kamal's lair scene, just ramped up the gross-out factor to a 100. Coming so close on the heels of OP it really stood out at the time.
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,917
    Pushkin was a last-minute addition rewritten character to replace Gogol as actor Walter Gotell was ill and could only do a cameo at the end. I recall reading that they tried to get a Pushkin cameo into LTK but there was no way they could logically fit it in.

    Count me as one of the few who don't mind John Terry's Leiter. Due to him having just two short scenes, I find him less distracting than Cec Linder in GF or Norman Burton in DAF, who are in many more scenes and have more chances to give less of a Leiter vibe. Terry at least physically seems like somebody who could help Bond out in a physical scrape.

    A complaint I had at the time TLT was released was the best fight scene in the film is between Necros and the Blayden butler guy and not Bond. That was a real step up from the lame warehouse scrap in AVTAK, but Bond isn't in it.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited May 2018 Posts: 11,189
    They couldn’t fit Pushkin into LTK yet they could fit Sheriff Pepper into MWTGG?

    Heck Pushkin could just be a guest at Felix’s wedding.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Come to think of it, Rhys-Davies was in the Indy films too, wasn't he? That compounds the parallel.
    ---
    BT3366 wrote: »
    A complaint I had at the time TLT was released was the best fight scene in the film is between Necros and the Blayden butler guy and not Bond. That was a real step up from the lame warehouse scrap in AVTAK, but Bond isn't in it.
    It's probably the best fight scene of the Dalton era, at least that I can remember. Perhaps no loss that Bond wasn't there, given he didn't acquit himself all that well in the LTK bar fight. Sloppy moves for a younger man imho (with Rog there was an excuse). No grace.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited May 2018 Posts: 11,189
    Imagine if Bond was fighting Necros instead of Green 4 in that scene? Would it have ended the same way with Bond knocked out, taken to hospital and presumably released after a few days?

    Then at the end he gets his revenge on Necros during the cargo net fight.

    ...or would Bond have retreated and somehow escaped the kitchen?
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    bondjames wrote: »
    Satorious wrote: »
    I watched Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom last night with the kids. Surprised me how much they pilfered from it for TLD (eg. plane running out of fuel, motors stopping, drift aimlessly, escaping out the back via some means of transportation - even the Aston Martin/Cello chase feels a bit like them sliding down the mountain in the dinghy). Some of it even looked like a shot for shot copy.
    It's a good point. I've always maintained that there is a lot of Spielberg Indy influence in the later Glen entries (post-FYEO). It's even there in the lorry finale in LTK and in the mine sequence in AVTAK (which also owes a bit to Roger Moore's Gold). A bit of friendly rivalry probably was at play, given Indy was Spielberg/Lucas's answer to Bond and was a massive hit.

    I remember the late great writer John Brosnan in his Starburst magazine column mentioning the fact that while Bond used to be the leader in action cinema it was now a follower. This was in 1981 when FYEO and Raiders were both around at the same time and he bemoaned that while Raiders was fresh and exciting the Bond film felt stale and listless. He even joked that Roger Moore would probably be weilding a Bullwhip at some point in the next Bond film....!
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited May 2018 Posts: 11,189
    If he said that at the time of FYEO then I dread to think what he thought of AVTAK - a film that REALLY doesn’t hold up well.

    I feel sorry for Roger having to wear that leather jacket in the later half of the film. The producers were obviously trying to make him look cool.

    Comparitively I think FYEO is a good film. Roger’s still reasonably believable as an older spy, a good revenge story and some charismatic performances.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    edited May 2018 Posts: 3,996
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    If he said that at the time of FYEO then I dread to think what he thought of AVTAK - a film that REALLY doesn’t hold up well.

    I feel sorry for Roger having to wear that leather jacket in the later half of the film. Obviously trying to make him look cool.

    Comparitively I think FYEO is a good film. Roger’s still reasonably believable as an older spy, a good revenge story and some charismatic performances.

    I don't think he minded AVTAK as he was a fan of Airships. I remember he liked the plot which reminded him of GF. I know he hated OP.

    Brosnan always preferred the more science fiction James Bond plots.

    His book, 'James Bond In the Cinema' is sadly out of print.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited May 2018 Posts: 11,189
    In my mind I think both FYEO and OP have far more going for them than AVTAK does.

    View just feels very sloppy and quite poorly made.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    In my mind I think both FYEO and OP have far more going for them than AVTAK does.

    View just feels very sloppy and quite poorly made.

    I agree with you.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    In my mind I think both FYEO and OP have far more going for them than AVTAK does.

    View just feels very sloppy and quite poorly made.

    I agree with you.

    Its a good candidate for Roger’s weakest film.

    Though MWTGG does annoy me more.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Satorious wrote: »
    I watched Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom last night with the kids. Surprised me how much they pilfered from it for TLD (eg. plane running out of fuel, motors stopping, drift aimlessly, escaping out the back via some means of transportation - even the Aston Martin/Cello chase feels a bit like them sliding down the mountain in the dinghy). Some of it even looked like a shot for shot copy.
    It's a good point. I've always maintained that there is a lot of Spielberg Indy influence in the later Glen entries (post-FYEO). It's even there in the lorry finale in LTK and in the mine sequence in AVTAK (which also owes a bit to Roger Moore's Gold). A bit of friendly rivalry probably was at play, given Indy was Spielberg/Lucas's answer to Bond and was a massive hit.

    I remember the late great writer John Brosnan in his Starburst magazine column mentioning the fact that while Bond used to be the leader in action cinema it was now a follower. This was in 1981 when FYEO and Raiders were both around at the same time and he bemoaned that while Raiders was fresh and exciting the Bond film felt stale and listless. He even joked that Roger Moore would probably be weilding a Bullwhip at some point in the next Bond film....!
    I can see how that would have been the case at the time. Indy was somewhat transformational on Bond, as was Die Hard and Bourne later. I'm curious to see the influence next.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    bondjames wrote: »
    LeonardPine wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Satorious wrote: »
    I watched Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom last night with the kids. Surprised me how much they pilfered from it for TLD (eg. plane running out of fuel, motors stopping, drift aimlessly, escaping out the back via some means of transportation - even the Aston Martin/Cello chase feels a bit like them sliding down the mountain in the dinghy). Some of it even looked like a shot for shot copy.
    It's a good point. I've always maintained that there is a lot of Spielberg Indy influence in the later Glen entries (post-FYEO). It's even there in the lorry finale in LTK and in the mine sequence in AVTAK (which also owes a bit to Roger Moore's Gold). A bit of friendly rivalry probably was at play, given Indy was Spielberg/Lucas's answer to Bond and was a massive hit.

    I remember the late great writer John Brosnan in his Starburst magazine column mentioning the fact that while Bond used to be the leader in action cinema it was now a follower. This was in 1981 when FYEO and Raiders were both around at the same time and he bemoaned that while Raiders was fresh and exciting the Bond film felt stale and listless. He even joked that Roger Moore would probably be weilding a Bullwhip at some point in the next Bond film....!
    I can see how that would have been the case at the time. Indy was somewhat transformational on Bond, as was Die Hard and Bourne later. I'm curious to see the influence next.

    Bourne's a good point. As much as i like it, QoS was very influenced by the Bourne films, which is the way i wanted the Craig films to go.

    I think those type of thrillers suit Craig's Bond much better. But this discussion belongs in a different thread.
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    Posts: 17,756
    My issues with TLD is already covered through most of the comments so far. I watched the film last summer, and that was probably the viewing that impressed me the least. I feel the film works fine until we get to the lengthy Afghanistan part. From there on, it's a nosedive in entertainment factor, and I just can't get excited about what's going on. The early parts of the film (minus the unnecessary bits of humour) is probably what I found best with Dalton's films.

    The villains are a bit dull… or, make that very dull. So unmemorable and flat - possibly some of the worst of the whole series. Luckily we have a great score, and a fine Bond in Dalton.
  • bondsumbondsum
    edited May 2018 Posts: 3,333
    I remember that book by John Brosnan. I think it was originally published in '72 and was continually updated with the latest Bond movie, right up until MR, though he did review FYEO and AVTAK for Starburst magazine. I quite enjoyed reading Brosnan's reviews but I never particularly agreed with everything that he wrote. For instance, he disliked OHMSS and LALD but he liked AVTAK!! Starburst was one of those magazines I bought from it's very first issue in '77. I think by the time of trash like OP and AVTAK, I was plucking it off the shelves in bookstores to just read his review. Possibly because I found the gulf growing ever increasingly larger between his views and my own and the Bond movies dropping in quality, I stopped purchasing the magazine altogether.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited May 2018 Posts: 11,189
    Even old Bazza described OP as "great fun" back in 1983 (7.57)

    (7.57)

    I wish I knew what he genuinely thought of Dalton/TLD in 1987.

    I wonder if he was biased because he was friends with Roger.
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