007: What would you have done differently?

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  • Posts: 12,466
    It’s not a favorite of mine, but it’s the more “classic” or Dalton’s two films, and each actor deserves at least one inclusion for their efforts. I do prefer LTK substantially but it’s a very different kind of Bond film.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I made some comments in the originals thread once and got chased out by some old guy with a stick.
  • Posts: 11,425
    no this guy was much older and grumpier
  • Posts: 4,615
    I loved GE.

    but the BMW did indicate a more "corporate" Bond which was not a good trend. It contributed to a rather souless feel to Bond which they never corrected within that run.

    GE was very close to being a classic IMHO but not quite there.
  • Posts: 11,189
    patb wrote: »
    I loved GE.

    but the BMW did indicate a more "corporate" Bond which was not a good trend. It contributed to a rather souless feel to Bond which they never corrected within that run.

    GE was very close to being a classic IMHO but not quite there.

    I have a fondness for GE but I do get what you mean in terms of that whole era.



  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2018 Posts: 23,883
    Revelator wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    GE is generally looked upon quite favourably by fans and critics alike today as far as I know. Does that classify it as a 'classic'?

    If one loosely defines a classic as a film that's more than a couple of decades old that's still fondly remembered by some, then sure. But that would apply to most of the Bond films, aside from the few films that are usually reviled (and even those have their defenders). GE was well-reviewed and well-received at the time for predictable reasons, but I don't know if its reputation has significantly risen since then. And the Brosnan era as a whole doesn't seem to have aged well in light of Craig's tenure.
    I wouldn't say that fondly remembered by some qualifies. Rather, I believe it has to be fondly remembered and appreciated by most, and particularly fairweather fans and the media in order to qualify. In that instance, GE succeeds. Its reputation may not have increased, but I don't think it has declined either and that is impressive 20+ years on. To quite a few viewers (although not all) it represents the last of the much loved old school Bond films.
    Revelator wrote: »
    Who knows, but I believe that a lot of people, including scribes, see it along with CR & SF as the best Bond films of the last 30 odd years.

    Perhaps because of the weakness of the remaining competitors--Brosnan's subsequent films and Craig's other two films. As for Dalton's entries, fewer people have watched them, but those who have often place TLD in the best of the past three decades list.
    TLD just missed my 30 year cutoff (and I realize I'm being pedantic with that statement). I gave some thought to including it in my list, but it's always been a difficult one for me to classify in the upper echelon. I realize its very fondly thought of by the hardcore, but I'd suspect that's not the case with the majority of the public and critics, unlike say OHMSS which has received a general broad reassessment with time and perhaps due to the Craig era.
    FoxRox wrote: »
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Over on the Originals thread (focusing on us that saw our first Bond film in the theatre or drive-in starring Connery or Lazenby upon or near initial release), a couple years back, we tried to come up with a definitive list (from a variety of criteria) of classic Bond films. It starts around page 199. We all had to give up something we loved and accept something we didn't personally feel an attachment to. I'm still uncomfortable excluding LIVE AND LET DIE.

    https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/3341/sirhenryleechachings-for-original-fans-put-a-previous-female-bond-villain-into-bond-25/p200

    Here is the final list:

    DR. NO
    FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE
    GOLDFINGER
    THUNDERBALL
    YOU ONLY LIVE TWICE
    ON HER MAJESTY'S SECRET SERVICE
    THE SPY WHO LOVED ME
    THE LIVING DAYLIGHTS
    GOLDENEYE
    CASINO ROYALE
    SKYFALL

    Overall that’s a great list of Top 11 most definitive Bond films. I think you could argue for LALD and FYEO as well. Not to say there aren’t other good Bond films, but those 13 are probably the best representation for what James Bond is all about.
    Yes, I think that's a decent list, but if I was to compress it to 10, TLD would go for reasons noted above.
    Getafix wrote: »
    I can deal with the list up to TLD but see it's inclusion as a bit daft. although I love TLD personally I'm not sure it can ever be described as a classic as so few outside a hard-core fan base have even seen it.

    nothing after TLD qualifies for me personally. I can see why CR is on there but it's not an easy rewatch for me - drags and is overlong
    Agreed on all counts. Sorry, misread your statement. Agreed on all but the fact that nothing after TLD qualifies. As mentioned, I think GE, CR & SF do.
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Including TLD was a concession I made. My opinion aside, many hard core fans revere it.
    It seems like a concession to me but I'm ok with it. LALD missing is a disappointment but given its somewhat dated race aspect perhaps it may never qualify.
  • Posts: 11,425
    didn't Cubby want Solitaire to be played by a black actress (wasn't Diana Ross mooted)? I don't know if that would have made things better or worse.

    last time I watched it, it wasn't the race element that grated but just the generally flat direction and lameness of it all. I was just bored.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    LALD is just what it is. It’s not that the film is at fault and all, but what it is as a whole that doesn’t make it elegant enough for a Bond film. All that voodoo, blaxploitation elements, the drugs element, Harlem, etc. It’s not a job for Bond to go after some drug lord in the US.

    Then again, despite the different premise, the setting and elemental picks were derived from the novel. So, screwed if you do, screwed if you don’t. That’s how I see LALD. Doesn’t make it necessarily a favourite of mine, but it’s not a bad film on its own.
  • Posts: 1,596
    The classics list looks just about right, though obviously I have one or two disagreements, I can’t argue. Curious as to SF’s inclusion, given how new the film is. Not that I disagree.

    Also, I agree about TLD being included as well. Even when I wasn’t the biggest fan of it (which I now am) many years ago I would’ve conceded it as “classic.”
  • Posts: 11,425
    glad to see TLD getting this kind of love
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    The only really true classics: DN, FRWL, GF, OHMSS. The rest is up for debate.
  • Posts: 11,425
    ha - I would probably agree although would want to YOLT and TSWLM. all for a short list tho
  • Posts: 2,917
    The only really true classics: DN, FRWL, GF, OHMSS. The rest is up for debate.

    I agree. My personal definition of a classic is a film that been around for approximately 50 years (OHMSS is 47 so it squeaks in) and is generally regarded as either great or very good. And no matter how I revise that definition, GE would not be in that category.
  • Posts: 11,425
    agree
  • Posts: 12,466
    The only really true classics: DN, FRWL, GF, OHMSS. The rest is up for debate.

    I say at least TB, YOLT, and/or TSWLM needs to be included definitively for the epic, grand-scope Bond classic representation. And I think almost everyone would agree CR is a modern classic.
  • Posts: 15,117
    FoxRox wrote: »
    The only really true classics: DN, FRWL, GF, OHMSS. The rest is up for debate.

    I say at least TB, YOLT, and/or TSWLM needs to be included definitively for the epic, grand-scope Bond classic representation. And I think almost everyone would agree CR is a modern classic.

    I'm not a fan of YOLT but I agree.
  • Posts: 12,466
    I think TSWLM is probably the most well-rounded, great example of an epic-size, more lighthearted Bond classic. It would definitely earn the spot the most of those 3 for me at least if I had to pick.
  • Posts: 1,596
    I think GE and CR qualify because of their cultural impact/influence. That they aren’t “old” yet, isn’t really as important. Both films garnered immense buzz, signaled a somewhat shift in series direction, and received widespread critical and commercial acclaim.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    I've thought TLD was the best post-1960s Bond film when I first saw it in 1987. I think the same today so I would definitely consider it a classic.

    I haven't posted yet on the main topic, i.e., changes to GE:

    A few easy changes:

    Have John Barry, David Arnold or anyone but Eric Serra provide a more traditionally sounding Bond score.

    Dump the Jack Wade character, replace him with Felix Leiter and have him played by Lee Horsley so 1980s tv detectives Remington Steele and Matt Houston could work on a mission together.

    Replace Mishkin with Pushkin and have John Rhys-Davies reprise the character as originally intended.

    Keep Caroline Bliss as Miss Moneypenny to keep some more continuity with the Dalton era.

    Bigger changes:

    Polish the script more so that there would be more dramatic tension in the antagonistic relationship between 007 and 006. As it stands now, Bond and Sanchez in its immediate predecessor have a far stronger Bond vs. villain onscreen relationship.

    Biggest change:

    Make it 2-3 years earlier and have Dalton play Bond instead of Brosnan. As GE stands now, the ghost of Dalton's Bond totally haunts the film for me.

  • Posts: 16,162
    I've thought TLD was the best post-1960s Bond film when I first saw it in 1987. I think the same today so I would definitely consider it a classic.

    I haven't posted yet on the main topic, i.e., changes to GE:

    A few easy changes:

    Have John Barry, David Arnold or anyone but Eric Serra provide a more traditionally sounding Bond score.

    Dump the Jack Wade character, replace him with Felix Leiter and have him played by Lee Horsley so 1980s tv detectives Remington Steele and Matt Houston could work on a mission together.

    Replace Mishkin with Pushkin and have John Rhys-Davies reprise the character as originally intended.

    Keep Caroline Bliss as Miss Moneypenny to keep some more continuity with the Dalton era.

    Bigger changes:

    Polish the script more so that there would be more dramatic tension in the antagonistic relationship between 007 and 006. As it stands now, Bond and Sanchez in its immediate predecessor have a far stronger Bond vs. villain onscreen relationship.

    Biggest change:

    Make it 2-3 years earlier and have Dalton play Bond instead of Brosnan. As GE stands now, the ghost of Dalton's Bond totally haunts the film for me.

    I like the idea of Bliss returning here as Moneypenny. I wonder what the thought was here? Why bother to recast? Was Bliss ever considered for this film? She never really got the chance to shine as Moneypenny, IMO.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited June 2018 Posts: 23,883
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I've thought TLD was the best post-1960s Bond film when I first saw it in 1987. I think the same today so I would definitely consider it a classic.

    I haven't posted yet on the main topic, i.e., changes to GE:

    A few easy changes:

    Have John Barry, David Arnold or anyone but Eric Serra provide a more traditionally sounding Bond score.

    Dump the Jack Wade character, replace him with Felix Leiter and have him played by Lee Horsley so 1980s tv detectives Remington Steele and Matt Houston could work on a mission together.

    Replace Mishkin with Pushkin and have John Rhys-Davies reprise the character as originally intended.

    Keep Caroline Bliss as Miss Moneypenny to keep some more continuity with the Dalton era.

    Bigger changes:

    Polish the script more so that there would be more dramatic tension in the antagonistic relationship between 007 and 006. As it stands now, Bond and Sanchez in its immediate predecessor have a far stronger Bond vs. villain onscreen relationship.

    Biggest change:

    Make it 2-3 years earlier and have Dalton play Bond instead of Brosnan. As GE stands now, the ghost of Dalton's Bond totally haunts the film for me.

    I like the idea of Bliss returning here as Moneypenny. I wonder what the thought was here? Why bother to recast? Was Bliss ever considered for this film? She never really got the chance to shine as Moneypenny, IMO.
    It seems apparent to me that EON decided to 'reboot' MP with GE - give her more of a #MeToo flavour. Bliss's iteration seemed a bit soft and fragile for what they were going for, and her character had already been established in the Dalton films. So bringing her back was probably not possible given where they wanted to go.

    There is something strangely deja vu about the MI6 scenes in GE imho. They remind me of TLD in many ways (particularly aesthetically), but yet are different. I think this may have been deliberate.
  • Posts: 11,425
    I've thought TLD was the best post-1960s Bond film when I first saw it in 1987. I think the same today so I would definitely consider it a classic.

    I haven't posted yet on the main topic, i.e., changes to GE:

    A few easy changes:

    Have John Barry, David Arnold or anyone but Eric Serra provide a more traditionally sounding Bond score.

    Dump the Jack Wade character, replace him with Felix Leiter and have him played by Lee Horsley so 1980s tv detectives Remington Steele and Matt Houston could work on a mission together.

    Replace Mishkin with Pushkin and have John Rhys-Davies reprise the character as originally intended.

    Keep Caroline Bliss as Miss Moneypenny to keep some more continuity with the Dalton era.

    Bigger changes:

    Polish the script more so that there would be more dramatic tension in the antagonistic relationship between 007 and 006. As it stands now, Bond and Sanchez in its immediate predecessor have a far stronger Bond vs. villain onscreen relationship.

    Biggest change:

    Make it 2-3 years earlier and have Dalton play Bond instead of Brosnan. As GE stands now, the ghost of Dalton's Bond totally haunts the film for me.

    Totally agree - you need to join the other thread!
  • Posts: 11,425
    I thought Samantha Bond was one of the few decent things about the Brosnan era. Obviously she would have worked better with Dalts.

    So the only casting continuity between LTK and GE was Desmond and Joe Don Baker?

    Something at least. And then Dame Judy provided that last slither of continuity between DAD and CR. Really hoping they keep at least someone from B25 when they recast Bond for B26. Whishaw would be my first choice for a hold over.
  • Posts: 11,425
    agree although 'devastated' might be overstating my reaction
  • Posts: 16,162
    It would just feel wrong to not have at least one regular continue once Bond is recast.
  • Posts: 11,425
    how about Tanner...
  • Posts: 16,162
    Getafix wrote: »
    how about Tanner...

    I think the mouse from SPECTRE returning in future films might be a more popular choice than Tanner.

    Actually, I 'd probably be okay with him carrying on to the next era.
  • Posts: 16,162
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Exactly, he'd be my last choice of the six (in order: Q, M, Felix, Moneypenny, Blofeld, Tanner), but I'd happily tolerate him if he was our sole remaining link.

    I probably like Wright's Felix best, but Felix needs to be Bond's contemporary, and he's getting to be too old to work with a fresh Bond. Plus, I din't care for the way he was underplayed and underused. Q and Moneypenny are fine if they can just stay out of the damned field. I wouldn't mind Fiennes' returning if he could go back to being the guy he wa sin SF. I really didn't care for him in SP.

    I like Wright as well. Pity it's been 10 years since he played Leiter. 11 years next year. One year shy of the entire Roger era.

    I'm indifferent to Fiennes. I like him, but to be honest, he just isn't M to me.

    I prefer M to be older than Bond rather than someone similar in age.
  • Posts: 11,425
    Bringing back Jeffrey now might be odd after such a long time. But would emphasise the passing of time.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    I love Jeffrey’s Felix a lot and I wish we had seen more of him as he does seem be more on-hands type of a character rather than a yes man to Bond.

    Although, I always imagined the Felix of the Craig era would’ve been best suited to Aaron Eckhart.
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