How should Bond die, if at all?

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  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,416
    That is true. I remember when it was seen as vaguely cool to be a Star Wars fan (sort of mid-late 90s); and that has very much changed now! :)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited March 2022 Posts: 24,183
    Don't blame the franchises, nor fandom as a phenomenon; instead, blame the asocial media--sewer pits of the Internet, moral wastelands that corrupt the integrity of its users. These platforms allow and in fact endorse caustic remarks, cults forming around first-world anger, and a whole slew of hashtag movements that pop up and grow like fungi. I will give them one thing: the "release the Snyder cut", though replete with a$$holes, brought me one of my favourite DC films. Other than that, there's
    • the irrational backlash against the Ghostbusters 3 trailer (while I enjoy this film a whole lot more than the two that came before it. There, I said it. Ghostbusters is overrated in my opinion);
    • the whole "fire so-and-so!", you know, Kathleen Kennedy... or even, hey!, Barbara Bro--no, wait, "Babs"--because she apparently is the architect of all that went wrong in the past decades of Bond, you know, Casino Royale sucked, SkyFall bombed, NTTD was the worst performer in the COVID-19 era...;
    • ...;
    • oh, and James Bond is dead... and they announced that he will be back!!,

    because the Bond films are beacons of flawless continuity so this is a violation of all that we are "entitled to" as fans, who, apparently, practically own the Bond film series considering all that we are "owed" and have the "right" to "demand" from the producers. (Let's petition, let's send them open letters, let's hashtag this and hashtag that like a bunch of moronic teenagers.)

    Get over it, people. Leave the childish whining over misplaced jewels to the Kardashian tribe and move on. James Bond is dead, long live James Bond.
  • Posts: 1,078
    Crikey, there's some nasty comments on here today. Anyone that doesn't like the film is 'childish' or 'emotionally stunted' is it?
    Yet, I don't remember people that didn't like the movie ever being so judgmental about people that do like it. Certainly not to the extent of name-calling.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited March 2022 Posts: 24,183
    Crikey, there's some nasty comments on here today. Anyone that doesn't like the film is 'childish' or 'emotionally stunted' is it?
    Yet, I don't remember people that didn't like the movie ever being so judgmental about people that do like it. Certainly not to the extent of name-calling.

    Have you read the comments these past several months? Some members went so far as to drop numerous posts attacking the film without having even seen the film. "Reading the wiki summary is enough for me." Yeah, that's childish. Raising tombstones because the series supposedly died, yeah, that's childish, or at least childishly dramatic.

    Name-calling? What name-calling did I do? Oh, I called the hashtag crowd moronic teens. Yes, and I'll stand by that.

    Lastly, I wasn't being judgmental about people who dislike the film. I'm being judgmental of the petitioners, hashtaggers and entitled fans. Like or dislike, I don't mind either way. But when someone decides that "we" should send "Babs" a letter explaining how to do a Bond film well, to that person I say get over it, mate.
  • edited March 2022 Posts: 12,837
    Anyone that doesn't like the film is 'childish' or 'emotionally stunted' is it?

    Nobody said that. Like I said in my comment, not talking about just being disappointed in the film. We were on about the social media nutjobs, the people who dedicate all their time online to hating the stuff they’re supposedly fans of on Twitter and Youtube. Not liking a film is normal. Talking about why you don’t like it is normal, to a point. But if you find yourself dedicating a whole Twitter account to grieving over a fictional character’s temporary death in a film you didn’t like, then yeah, chances are you’ve got some issues.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Remember when a slew of new accounts came onto this forum and accused fans of NTTD not being “real Bond fans”?

    I’m glad that’s over with and the mods shut that down. At least on this forum.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    I think we always get a load of new people jumping on the Bondwagon every time a new Bond film is released or a new Bond actor is announced etc. They're like a flash in the pan and then they fade away like last month's fish and chip papers when their single use negativity and axe-grinding is over.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Anyone that doesn't like the film is 'childish' or 'emotionally stunted' is it?

    Nobody said that. Like I said in my comment, not talking about just being disappointed in the film. We were on about the social media nutjobs, the people who dedicate all their time online to hating the stuff they’re supposedly fans of on Twitter and Youtube. Not liking a film is normal. Talking about why you don’t like it is normal, to a point. But if you find yourself dedicating a whole Twitter account to grieving over a fictional character’s temporary death in a film you didn’t like, then yeah, chances are you’ve got some issues.

    Exactly. Remember when DC was announced? We have members who never really took to him. That's fine. And then there were those who set up the 'CraigNotBond' website. Evidently, those folks have serious issues.

    And to be honest,
    I don't remember people that didn't like the movie ever being so judgmental about people that do like it

    makes little sense. I seem to recall that because I like NTTD,

    - I am not a "true fan",
    - I don't "get" Bond,
    - I don't "understand Fleming",
    - I'm just willing to accept anything EON feeds me without thinking,
    - ...

    The pot and the kettle and all that?
  • I absolutely love NTTD. Better acting than in any MI film. Gets in my top 10 in franchise. But I can understand why people who don't enjoy it as much.
  • Posts: 2,161
    Not really a matter of understanding. Criticism, parsing, analyzing and arguing are exercises. One feels what one feels beyond all of that.
  • Posts: 1,078
    Talking about why you don’t like it is normal, to a point. But if you find yourself dedicating a whole Twitter account to grieving over a fictional character’s temporary death in a film you didn’t like, then yeah, chances are you’ve got some issues.

    Fair enough.

    'Temporary death' though.
    I know it's "only a movie", and these days it doesn't matter because, well, timelines and alternate universes and all that fun stuff. But you can surely see why there are some people who think a 'temporary death' doesn't quite work in a drama series.
    Temporary death, Seriously?
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,807
    Bond's death in NTTD is presented as final.

    There's no coming back from it short of Zombie Bond, but I don't think they'll go there.

    live-and-let-die-baron-samedi.gif

  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Talking about why you don’t like it is normal, to a point. But if you find yourself dedicating a whole Twitter account to grieving over a fictional character’s temporary death in a film you didn’t like, then yeah, chances are you’ve got some issues.

    Fair enough.

    'Temporary death' though.
    I know it's "only a movie", and these days it doesn't matter because, well, timelines and alternate universes and all that fun stuff. But you can surely see why there are some people who think a 'temporary death' doesn't quite work in a drama series.
    Temporary death, Seriously?

    It's only a movie.
  • Posts: 1,078
    It's only a movie.

    And saying that dismisses the stupidity of having the main character in a real world drama dead ..... but not dead really?

    Do you adopt a similar shoulder shrugging attitude to literature? If it really doesn't matter, how can it matter in the context of the movie or novel?
    'It worked, but it didn't matter'. There's people on the Easter Egg thread finding all kinds of deep meanings to all kinds of things, yet when I try to point out that his screen death didn't work, I'm told I'm taking it too seriously.
    Silly me, looking for some sense. I should just accept he's dead, but not dead really.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited March 2022 Posts: 8,217
    a real world drama .....

    I'm still wondering how this phrase applies to Bond.
  • Posts: 12,837
    Silly me, looking for some sense. I should just accept he's dead, but not dead really.

    Craig’s Bond is dead, but they’re not going to stop making Bond films, so the character will live on in another reinterpretation of the legend. Works for me.
  • Posts: 12,473
    While I still can’t say I “liked” the decision to kill Bond off, I’m genuinely surprised at how much I wasn’t pissed off about it when I saw the movie. While it’s not an artistic decision I’d ever make or particularly enjoy, I’m just happy it didn’t turn out as bad as I imagined it would in my mind. First reaction of hearing it without seeing the movie was pretty bad, now I’m basically just at a neutral point about it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    It's only a movie.

    And saying that dismisses the stupidity of having the main character in a real world drama dead ..... but not dead really?

    “Real world drama”? These are action adventure films, not docudramas.
    Do you adopt a similar shoulder shrugging attitude to literature?

    Shrugging isn’t the right phrase. More like understanding the conceit that these are fictional films that don’t need to be completely interconnected.
    If it really doesn't matter, how can it matter in the context of the movie or novel?
    'It worked, but it didn't matter'. There's people on the Easter Egg thread finding all kinds of deep meanings to all kinds of things, yet when I try to point out that his screen death didn't work, I'm told I'm taking it too seriously.
    Silly me, looking for some sense. I should just accept he's dead, but not dead really.

    It only matters in the context of Craig’s run. His run is finished, therefore someone else will step in and have their own take on Bond that doesn’t depend on what happened in NTTD.

    It’s really not that perplexing.
  • Posts: 1,078
    It’s really not that perplexing.

    You're quite right, it's completely understandable. They've removed Cubby's 'no actor is bigger than Bond' idea, and replaced it with a new model where each actor is playing a different character, and has their own separate universe.
    Except it's the same character, of course. It's still Ian Fleming's Bond, but he can die and come back within each actor's timeline. But he probably won't die for a while because Craig's Bond was special.
    And just because he's dead at the moment, he's not really.
    Yes, I get it now. Thanks for helping me out guys, I appreciate it.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    Posts: 685
    It's like pulling teeth.
  • Posts: 52
    It seems a big part of Craig Bond's death, to me, revolves around on whether you feel the Bond character is unique or not. If he's just another movie character, sure kill him off, who cares, it's just a movie.
    However, for me, he is a unique phenomenon who people have been following for 60 years. A 60 year franchise is built around him and is still going strong. This is why the character is certainly bigger than the actor and why, as good as Craig was, the concept of walking the cliched path of secret daughters and "a heroes death", cos that's what the actor wanted, was a colossal misstep.
    Just because it's a given, as a human character, he must eventually die, doesn't mean we have to tread that weary path in the movies. For me, Bond has always passed away of a heart attack in his 70s, with a drink in his hand and 30 year old woman straddling him. If anyone is going out like that, it's James Bond. If anyone is giving up and getting blown up, it's pretty much any bang average movie character you can name.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    edited March 2022 Posts: 8,217
    I don't even like the film all that much and in the beginning it felt like a big deal to me. However, seeing people analyse it to the point where they could probably cure serious diseases (in the real world) if they put the same level of effort in has really put it into perspective for me.
    EDDIEVH wrote: »
    It seems a big part of Craig Bond's death, to me, revolves around on whether you feel the Bond character is unique or not. If he's just another movie character, sure kill him off, who cares, it's just a movie.
    However, for me, he is a unique phenomenon who people have been following for 60 years. A 60 year franchise is built around him and is still going strong. This is why the character is certainly bigger than the actor and why, as good as Craig was, the concept of walking the cliched path of secret daughters and "a heroes death", cos that's what the actor wanted, was a colossal misstep.
    Just because it's a given, as a human character, he must eventually die, doesn't mean we have to tread that weary path in the movies. For me, Bond has always passed away of a heart attack in his 70s, with a drink in his hand and 30 year old woman straddling him. If anyone is going out like that, it's James Bond. If anyone is giving up and getting blown up, it's pretty much any bang average movie character you can name.

    This is a reasonable assessment and I have often found myself feeling the same way. It has fed into my line of thinking that the Craig era has been an experiment, and that's largely why I'm glad it's officially self-contained, even if a lot of it worked on its own terms. It's got a beginning, a middle and an end; it's over and done with and the next thing will be its own with different mistakes and different creative wins.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    It’s really not that perplexing.

    You're quite right, it's completely understandable. They've removed Cubby's 'no actor is bigger than Bond' idea, and replaced it with a new model where each actor is playing a different character, and has their own separate universe.
    Except it's the same character, of course. It's still Ian Fleming's Bond, but he can die and come back within each actor's timeline. But he probably won't die for a while because Craig's Bond was special.
    And just because he's dead at the moment, he's not really.
    Yes, I get it now. Thanks for helping me out guys, I appreciate it.

    Bond dying and then being alive is no more absurd and nonsensical than somehow morphing from a 57 year old Roger Moore to a 40 year old Timothy Dalton.
  • Posts: 1,078
    Very good points. Like you, I also feel they've taken away what made James Bond a unique character in movie history. And for what? One dramatic moment that is ultimately worthless because the series is going to carry on anyway?
    It's not even really 'the death of James Bond', it was simply 'the death of Craig's Bond'.
    What does that even mean?
    Colossal misstep, yes. Unfortunately, the second half of NTTD is just that for me too.
  • edited March 2022 Posts: 1,078
    This is a reasonable assessment and I have often found myself feeling the same way. It has fed into my line of thinking that the Craig era has been an experiment, and that's largely why I'm glad it's officially self-contained, even if a lot of it worked on its own terms. It's got a beginning, a middle and an end; it's over and done with and the next thing will be its own with different mistakes and different creative wins.

    That's a good way of looking at it. I read Carte Blanch last year and that's exactly how I approached it, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I can't seem to feel the same about NTTD though.
    Bond dying and then being alive is no more absurd and nonsensical than somehow morphing from a 57 year old Roger Moore to a 40 year old Timothy Dalton.

    It's quite different for me. Changing an actor that's playing the same character ("he was married once") works, regardless of the age. Killing off a character then saying he'll return in the same film is a much more of a leap. Basically, it's taking the piss.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    Personally I don't think Bond should die.

    I didn't find it satisfying as others did in NTTD, I'm jealous of those who did because it put a dampener on my enjoyment of the film. When I think of NTTD, I'll never forget hearing jeering, booing and people leaving early on opening night in the cinema I saw it in.

    I don't think self sacrifice is satisfying to a character that the world you're watching is built around. If it's in a film were it's one and done no sequels, then fine or if they have an ensemble cast of heroes, like the superhero films then fair enough. But not for a film like Bond
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,266
    This is a reasonable assessment and I have often found myself feeling the same way. It has fed into my line of thinking that the Craig era has been an experiment, and that's largely why I'm glad it's officially self-contained, even if a lot of it worked on its own terms. It's got a beginning, a middle and an end; it's over and done with and the next thing will be its own with different mistakes and different creative wins.

    That's a good way of looking at it. I read Carte Blanch last year and that's exactly how I approached it, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. I can't seem to feel the same about NTTD though.
    Bond dying and then being alive is no more absurd and nonsensical than somehow morphing from a 57 year old Roger Moore to a 40 year old Timothy Dalton.

    It's quite different for me. Changing an actor that's playing the same character ("he was married once") works, regardless of the age. Killing off a character then saying he'll return in the same film is a much more of a leap. Basically, it's taking the piss.
    Is it? How about the line 'this never happened to the other fella'? Sure, he didn't die but he insinuated he wasn't the same guy that he was supposed to be. Hence, the saga theory works best and then Bond can also die. Now I'm not per se saying it's the right choice, but it can't say the argument is very strong.
    Of course, putting 'james bond will be back' just after you killed him off is a bit strange, but it's an assurance to the general public, of whom many might be confused if there wasn't a line at the end. I think the producers are far more afraid to lose them, than a couple of diehard fans.
    What I find odd, is that you're capable of doing that exercise with the literary version, but not with the film version. For me it works the other way around. It's why so few continuation novels don't work for me.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,589
    Falling into a pulverizer at the works
  • Posts: 1,630
    Falling into a pulverizer at the works

    Thanks for getting the post back on track ! Here, here !
  • Posts: 1,078
    What I find odd, is that you're capable of doing that exercise with the literary version, but not with the film version. For me it works the other way around. It's why so few continuation novels don't work for me.

    I quite enjoy most of the continuation novels in a 'let's see what they do with it' way. It's easier to accept the continuation novels as experiments on the theme of the 'real' (Fleming) Bond. I don't approach them as the same character, though Horowitz gets close, and I like that too.
    Which is how CraigMooreOHMSS suggested 'CraigBond' be approached. An experiment on the theme of the real James Bond.
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