Controversial opinions about other movies

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Is Cruise really still a star? His career used to be much more varied back in the 80s/90s/00s. Everything else that wasn’t MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE in the 2010s has either bombed or underperformed. That’s why he’s finally doing a TOP GUN sequel, something he didn’t really ever need back in the day.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited May 2022 Posts: 24,187
    Is Cruise really still a star? His career used to be much more varied back in the 80s/90s/00s. Everything else that wasn’t MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE in the 2010s has either bombed or underperformed. That’s why he’s finally doing a TOP GUN sequel, something he didn’t really ever need back in the day.

    But isn't M:I and his work in it enough to still consider him a star? Robert Pattinson became a "star" after one or two Twilight films. Audrey Hepburn became an Oscar winning star after merely one Hollywood film. I am sure that M:I, by itself, keeps Cruise's stardom alive.

    Or am I being unfair? 😉
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited May 2022 Posts: 8,188
    IMO a movie star is someone that could still draw in box office gold with their name alone, without the branding of a franchise installment. For example, I think only Connery qualifies as that among all the Bonds. None of his successors including Craig have had as much luck outside of Bond when it comes to box office hits (we’ll see how those KNIVES OUT sequels pan out, but again a franchise).
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    IMO a movie star is someone that could still draw in box office gold with their name alone, without the branding of a franchise installment. For example, I think only Connery qualifies as that among all the Bonds. None of his successors including Craig have had as much luck outside of Bond when it comes to box office hits (we’ll see how those KNIVES OUT sequels pan out, but again a franchise).

    To be fair, Connery's career was nowhere between DAF and, say, The Intouchables. He wasn't bringing the gold either. And after De Palma's film, he was mostly in films that would probably have made money without him too, like Indy 3, The Rock and Red October.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,154
    I buy anything that Eva Green's in. I even bought Dumbo, man! Christ, did I say that out loud?! Er, I'll show myself out...
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    IMO a movie star is someone that could still draw in box office gold with their name alone, without the branding of a franchise installment. For example, I think only Connery qualifies as that among all the Bonds. None of his successors including Craig have had as much luck outside of Bond when it comes to box office hits (we’ll see how those KNIVES OUT sequels pan out, but again a franchise).

    If that's the criteria then I'd probably say that the idea of a "movie star" probably died when the Stallone/Schwarznegger rivalry died down.

    But for me personally, I'd still think of the likes of Cruise as a movie simply due to the fact that Cruise himself is a brand as much as M:I is, irrespective of box office returns (though the point about a number of films underperforming is well-made, in fairness).

    I often think that while the 90s was a great decade for blockbuster cinema, it marked a turn where aesthetics and pyrotechnics overshadowed the leads that stardom naturally seemed to fall by the wayside. The only exceptions I could think of would be Hong Kong action cinema which championed the likes of Jackie Chan, Chow Yun-Fat etc in equal measure to the explosive stuff on screen.
  • Posts: 15,127
    cooperman2 wrote: »
    In the eighties and nineties I would often go to see a movie solely based on who was in it. The new Mel Gibson, the latest Harrison Ford movie etc. Didn't matter the genre if I liked the actor that was enough. That very rarely happens today.

    They don't make these kinds of movies ad often either. Now cinemas are dominated by franchises.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,978
    Is Cruise really still a star? His career used to be much more varied back in the 80s/90s/00s. Everything else that wasn’t MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE in the 2010s has either bombed or underperformed. That’s why he’s finally doing a TOP GUN sequel, something he didn’t really ever need back in the day.

    Even within the M:I series, I'd say a lot of fans are showing up just to see what impressive stunts he brings to the screen next. If that's not star power these days, I don't know what is.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,428
    Also, I suspect most people aren't necessarily excited by the prospect of a new Top Gun in itself, but knowing that it's Cruise in his current blockbuster form combined with Top Gun makes it a very appealing prospect.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Is Cruise really still a star? His career used to be much more varied back in the 80s/90s/00s. Everything else that wasn’t MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE in the 2010s has either bombed or underperformed. That’s why he’s finally doing a TOP GUN sequel, something he didn’t really ever need back in the day.

    Even within the M:I series, I'd say a lot of fans are showing up just to see what impressive stunts he brings to the screen next. If that's not star power these days, I don't know what is.

    When large audiences are only turning up for M:I, I think that’s telling enough that he’s lost his appeal outside of that franchise, which is why he’s made them more frequently since ROGUE NATION and very little else. MUMMY was supposed to launch a whole new series of films for him and a universe, but that all crashed and burned.

    This is why the TOP GUN sequel will be interesting to watch at the box office. It’s one of the few sequels he’s ever worked on. JACK REACHER didn’t take off the way the studio was happy with, so now its back go one of his signature films from nearly 40 years ago.
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    edited May 2022 Posts: 216
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    IMO a movie star is someone that could still draw in box office gold with their name alone, without the branding of a franchise installment. For example, I think only Connery qualifies as that among all the Bonds. None of his successors including Craig have had as much luck outside of Bond when it comes to box office hits (we’ll see how those KNIVES OUT sequels pan out, but again a franchise).

    To be fair, Connery's career was nowhere between DAF and, say, The Intouchables. He wasn't bringing the gold either. And after De Palma's film, he was mostly in films that would probably have made money without him too, like Indy 3, The Rock and Red October.

    I am hardly a Connery fan, but he did a lot of cult classics… Time Bandits, Highlander, it’s sequel that we try to ignore ever happened… was medicine man before or after Untouchables? Never Say Never Again, of course. There’s a Crichton Japanese intrigue thing, but I think that’s post Untouchables… Rising Sun? I think it had Wesley Snipes in too. And of course, he was a producer on the well regarded stage play ‘art’ as well.

    Edit: in fact I just went and looked up his filmography… quite embarrassed at some of the well known films I had forgotten he was in. The Man Who Would Be King particularly an embarrassing one to forget. He was also voted eighth in a channel 4 ‘top hundred movie stars’ thing, so I guess that’s put to bed.
  • Posts: 12,476
    I’ll just throw in my opinion here that I never liked Top Gun all that much, don’t understand the hype at all.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2022 Posts: 16,428
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Is Cruise really still a star? His career used to be much more varied back in the 80s/90s/00s. Everything else that wasn’t MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE in the 2010s has either bombed or underperformed. That’s why he’s finally doing a TOP GUN sequel, something he didn’t really ever need back in the day.

    Even within the M:I series, I'd say a lot of fans are showing up just to see what impressive stunts he brings to the screen next. If that's not star power these days, I don't know what is.

    When large audiences are only turning up for M:I, I think that’s telling enough that he’s lost his appeal outside of that franchise, which is why he’s made them more frequently since ROGUE NATION and very little else. MUMMY was supposed to launch a whole new series of films for him and a universe, but that all crashed and burned.

    I don't know if many stars could ever make terrible films work by their star power alone.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I’ll just throw in my opinion here that I never liked Top Gun all that much, don’t understand the hype at all.

    Same. I saw it when it came out, but don t remember a single scene. Utterly forgettable.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    TOP GUN is just an entertaining action flick with memorable jet fighter footage synced to pop music, and with some pretty cliche/bad human drama in between. Nothing more nothing less.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    JustJames wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    IMO a movie star is someone that could still draw in box office gold with their name alone, without the branding of a franchise installment. For example, I think only Connery qualifies as that among all the Bonds. None of his successors including Craig have had as much luck outside of Bond when it comes to box office hits (we’ll see how those KNIVES OUT sequels pan out, but again a franchise).

    To be fair, Connery's career was nowhere between DAF and, say, The Intouchables. He wasn't bringing the gold either. And after De Palma's film, he was mostly in films that would probably have made money without him too, like Indy 3, The Rock and Red October.

    I am hardly a Connery fan, but he did a lot of cult classics… Time Bandits, Highlander, it’s sequel that we try to ignore ever happened… was medicine man before or after Untouchables? Never Say Never Again, of course. There’s a Crichton Japanese intrigue thing, but I think that’s post Untouchables… Rising Sun? I think it had Wesley Snipes in too. And of course, he was a producer on the well regarded stage play ‘art’ as well.

    Edit: in fact I just went and looked up his filmography… quite embarrassed at some of the well known films I had forgotten he was in. The Man Who Would Be King particularly an embarrassing one to forget. He was also voted eighth in a channel 4 ‘top hundred movie stars’ thing, so I guess that’s put to bed.

    Yes, he was in them. But was he 'the big star Sean Connery' in Rising Sun, Time Bandits, Highlander...? Let's not mistake cult classics with big star vehicles either. Connery was always a name, for sure. But apart from some good lead roles in smaller films, as well as some smaller roles in big films, I don't think that putting Cruise on the poster was enough to flog millions to theatres.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,428
    TOP GUN is just an entertaining action flick with memorable jet fighter footage synced to pop music, and with some pretty cliche/bad human drama in between. Nothing more nothing less.

    This is all proving my point: I don’t think there is a massive desire for a Top Gun sequel. But it will be big because of Cruise.
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 216
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    JustJames wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    IMO a movie star is someone that could still draw in box office gold with their name alone, without the branding of a franchise installment. For example, I think only Connery qualifies as that among all the Bonds. None of his successors including Craig have had as much luck outside of Bond when it comes to box office hits (we’ll see how those KNIVES OUT sequels pan out, but again a franchise).

    To be fair, Connery's career was nowhere between DAF and, say, The Intouchables. He wasn't bringing the gold either. And after De Palma's film, he was mostly in films that would probably have made money without him too, like Indy 3, The Rock and Red October.

    I am hardly a Connery fan, but he did a lot of cult classics… Time Bandits, Highlander, it’s sequel that we try to ignore ever happened… was medicine man before or after Untouchables? Never Say Never Again, of course. There’s a Crichton Japanese intrigue thing, but I think that’s post Untouchables… Rising Sun? I think it had Wesley Snipes in too. And of course, he was a producer on the well regarded stage play ‘art’ as well.

    Edit: in fact I just went and looked up his filmography… quite embarrassed at some of the well known films I had forgotten he was in. The Man Who Would Be King particularly an embarrassing one to forget. He was also voted eighth in a channel 4 ‘top hundred movie stars’ thing, so I guess that’s put to bed.

    Yes, he was in them. But was he 'the big star Sean Connery' in Rising Sun, Time Bandits, Highlander...? Let's not mistake cult classics with big star vehicles either. Connery was always a name, for sure. But apart from some good lead roles in smaller films, as well as some smaller roles in big films, I don't think that putting Cruise on the poster was enough to flog millions to theatres.

    I think he was definitely the name for many of those projects, even in ensemble casts like for The First Great Train Robbery. Enough of a name that they brought his character back from the dead for the rather poor Highlander sequel. Maybe it’s a locale thing, but ‘starring Sean Connery’ Usually carries weight here in the Uk. Even if just on the films on TV at Xmas.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    Well, I don't want to press the point since this is mostly a semantics discussion anyway. ;-) I simply don't think that Connery was a much bigger star in the '80s than Cruise is today.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    Connery definitely had a a career downturn during 70s and early 80s with low box office films which is why he ended up doing NSNA. The success of THE UNTOUCHABLES ultimately put him back on the map as a marquee name.
  • Posts: 15,127
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Is Cruise really still a star? His career used to be much more varied back in the 80s/90s/00s. Everything else that wasn’t MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE in the 2010s has either bombed or underperformed. That’s why he’s finally doing a TOP GUN sequel, something he didn’t really ever need back in the day.

    Even within the M:I series, I'd say a lot of fans are showing up just to see what impressive stunts he brings to the screen next. If that's not star power these days, I don't know what is.

    When large audiences are only turning up for M:I, I think that’s telling enough that he’s lost his appeal outside of that franchise, which is why he’s made them more frequently since ROGUE NATION and very little else. MUMMY was supposed to launch a whole new series of films for him and a universe, but that all crashed and burned.

    This is why the TOP GUN sequel will be interesting to watch at the box office. It’s one of the few sequels he’s ever worked on. JACK REACHER didn’t take off the way the studio was happy with, so now its back go one of his signature films from nearly 40 years ago.
    To be honest, The Mummy (and the stillborn "Dark" Universal franchise) had many, many issues. If it failed it was through no fault of Cruise. In fact casting him might have been the only good move they made.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    Oblivion and Edge Of Tomorrow were good films too IMO. Not to mention Minority Report, a little older perhaps, but such a strong flick!
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,218
    I recently rewatched Edge Of Tomorrow for the first time since its release. It's a blast.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,978
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Oblivion and Edge Of Tomorrow were good films too IMO. Not to mention Minority Report, a little older perhaps, but such a strong flick!

    I haven't seen Oblivion since it first released but I need to change that. I recall it being really good.
  • Posts: 631
    I recently rewatched Edge Of Tomorrow for the first time since its release. It's a blast.

    A friend of mine once suggested it should have been called Groundhog Troopers :))
  • Posts: 631
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Oblivion and Edge Of Tomorrow were good films too IMO. Not to mention Minority Report, a little older perhaps, but such a strong flick!

    All three of those films were very good (and I own all three on DVD, I’ve just realised). But they didn’t pull in the box office like M:I. A lot of people have just forgotten about them, I think. A shame really. Minority Report in particular is excellent.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2022 Posts: 16,428
    I recently rewatched Edge Of Tomorrow for the first time since its release. It's a blast.

    It's one of the best SF movies... ever, really.

    Oblivion isn't on the same level, but it's perfectly decent stuff.
  • Posts: 15,127
    Here's ome: James Cameron is overall a director of overrated movies. Or at least, his two most successful movies were both upon release overrated and utterly forgettable.
    That said, Cameron is also particularly talented at almost instinctively knowing exactly what audiences want at any given time and being able to deliver exactly that.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,187
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's ome: James Cameron is overall a director of overrated movies. Or at least, his two most successful movies were both upon release overrated and utterly forgettable.
    That said, Cameron is also particularly talented at almost instinctively knowing exactly what audiences want at any given time and being able to deliver exactly that.

    I absolutely agree. His best are ALIENS, The Terminator and T2 in my opinion. The Abyss is fine. Everything True Lies and onwards doesn't do it for me. But the man understands the needs of the audience.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2022 Posts: 16,428
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Here's ome: James Cameron is overall a director of overrated movies. Or at least, his two most successful movies were both upon release overrated and utterly forgettable.

    Well, that wouldn't be his fault; and, both of those movies are very good, solid films. Not the most inspiringly different and fresh things you've ever seen, but they don't put a foot wrong and people enjoyed them.

    It's just sad he won't have James Horner along next time.
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