No Time To Die - Safin's Plot (Spoilers!)

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  • Posts: 678
    I've thought before that genetically altered crops could figure into Bond one day.
  • Posts: 15,106
    Univex wrote: »
    Could it be that David Dencik's scientist works for the USA? Therefore, the CIA need to get him back. However, the intel the CIA have suggests that the scientist is being kept in Cuba - somewhere they cannot risk a mission.

    Hence when Felix takes advantage of a now-retired Bond living in nearby Jamaica to carry out an 'off the book' operation.

    I think you’ve nailed it, @Pierce2Daniel. That’s probably it. Well done.
    Wow yes that's brilliant.
  • edited June 2019 Posts: 17,740
    Agree with the previous comments, this seems like a possible way to start off the film @Pierce2Daniel. I do hope there's more to Dencik's character than just this though. He'd be a perfect casting for a dubious character.
  • Posts: 4,408
    Agree with the previous comments, this seems like a possible way to start off the film @Pierce2Daniel. I do hope there's more to Dencik's character than just this though. He'd be a perfect casting for a dubious character.

    The thing that is throwing me off a little is the girl.....

    I know there is a theory going around that the scene is a flashback and the girl is a young Madeleine. However, equal weight has been thrown around the theory that the Norway scene is the kidnapping and the girl is likely the scientist's daughter.
    If the latter is true...why would the scientist help Rami Malek's character if he killed his daughter? Wouldn't you rather die than help such a man?

    Surely, a villain would be smart enough to know this. It would only make sense that he kidnaps the girl and threatens her life - hence forcing her father to work with him and create his "dangerous new technology" to spare his daughter's life.

    I have a feeling that the girl in Norway has a bigger role than we think......maybe after the rescue attempt is botched, Bond realises the child is in danger and has to try and save her.
  • Posts: 17,740
    Agree with the previous comments, this seems like a possible way to start off the film @Pierce2Daniel. I do hope there's more to Dencik's character than just this though. He'd be a perfect casting for a dubious character.

    The thing that is throwing me off a little is the girl.....

    I know there is a theory going around that the scene is a flashback and the girl is a young Madeleine. However, equal weight has been thrown around the theory that the Norway scene is the kidnapping and the girl is likely the scientist's daughter.
    If the latter is true...why would the scientist help Rami Malek's character if he killed his daughter? Wouldn't you rather die than help such a man?

    Surely, a villain would be smart enough to know this. It would only make sense that he kidnaps the girl and threatens her life - hence forcing her father to work with him and create his "dangerous new technology" to spare his daughter's life.

    I have a feeling that the girl in Norway has a bigger role than we think......maybe after the rescue attempt is botched, Bond realises the child is in danger and has to try and save her.

    All likely scenarios this:
    If anything, the girl is the main thing that feels out of place almost, so far. How does she tie in to all of this? If excluding the flashback (I personally hope it isn't), then it's difficult to look past the explanation that she's the scientist's daughter. I guess it's possible for Madeleine to have a daughter, but it's difficult to see how that might fit in with what we know so far.

    No matter what connection she has to the other characters, we might indeed see her having a bigger role than we think. If they film at the Atlantic Road next week, it might be worth keeping a close eye on who's present on location.
  • Posts: 1,680
    The kid has some connection to Madeline and the villain (malek) likely.
  • Posts: 787
    I've said this before, but I hope we don't end up with a 'tech villain' plot again. I think we've hit diminishing returns there and should give it a rest for a while. A few thoughts:

    -In the case of Silva and Blofeld, it wasn't totally clear what their motivations were. Power? Money? Hurt Bond? Hurt M? Chaos? How do their hacking/data centers play into that?

    -Making them 'tech' villains also obscures the nature and extent of their powers. If Silva can remotely blow up the MI6 headquarters, he's basically omnipotent. What can't he do?

    -Finally, I think EON have really struggled (as does everyone, really) to make 'hacking' into an interesting activity to watch. When Q and/or Silva are clacking away on their keyboards, is what they're doing difficult? Creative? Can we be made to understand why it's so? Or do we just see someone make a few noisy keystrokes and then take that to mean that they have 'bypassed the security' or some such?

  • St_GeorgeSt_George Shuttling Drax's lovelies to the space doughnut - happy 40th, MR!
    Posts: 1,699
    I do wonder whether we won't get Blofeld back again. If Baz's source is to be at all trusted and the villain/ the scientist are involved in dabbling with the human genome, could it be old Blowers may crop up with his DNA and so appearance altered (thus, played by someone other than a probably non-returning Waltz)? Just throwing it out there.

    Oh, and paging Die Another Day. ;)
  • Posts: 787
    St_George wrote: »
    I do wonder whether we won't get Blofeld back again. If Baz's source is to be at all trusted and the villain/ the scientist are involved in dabbling with the human genome, could it be old Blowers may crop up with his DNA and so appearance altered (thus, played by someone other than a probably non-returning Waltz)? Just throwing it out there.

    Oh, and paging Die Another Day.
    ;)

    Good lord, I was thinking that same thing as I read your post. Please, please don't let it be this!

  • St_GeorgeSt_George Shuttling Drax's lovelies to the space doughnut - happy 40th, MR!
    edited June 2019 Posts: 1,699
    octofinger wrote: »
    Good lord, I was thinking that same thing as I read your post. Please, please don't let it be this!

    :))

    Honestly, I wouldn't be a bit surprised. The ending to SP didn't really feel like a total resolution for the 21st-Century rerun of Blofeld-Bond, I'd suggest (although it could perfectly adequately serve as it, of course), so it's quite possible that - with or without a resurrected 'Spectre' organisation - Broccoli and co. may want to revisit the old chestnut and tie-up the CraigBond era by tidying it up. Up to this point it's driven the Craig era, narratively speaking, after all.

    And what price a pre-genetically altered Blofeld is the masked figure chasing the girl in the already-shot Norway scenes? Again, just thinking out loud.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    @octofinger, it's very Silva wants revenge on Mother-- embarrass her, take away her power, murder her/double homicide.

    Simple enough.

    Blofeld? Who the f*** knows
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    edited June 2019 Posts: 4,582
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Univex wrote: »
    Could it be that David Dencik's scientist works for the USA? Therefore, the CIA need to get him back. However, the intel the CIA have suggests that the scientist is being kept in Cuba - somewhere they cannot risk a mission.

    Hence when Felix takes advantage of a now-retired Bond living in nearby Jamaica to carry out an 'off the book' operation.

    I think you’ve nailed it, @Pierce2Daniel. That’s probably it. Well done.
    Wow yes that's brilliant.

    Indeed. I had thought the same thing: https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/comment/995991#Comment_995991
    Agree with the previous comments, this seems like a possible way to start off the film @Pierce2Daniel. I do hope there's more to Dencik's character than just this though. He'd be a perfect casting for a dubious character.

    The thing that is throwing me off a little is the girl.....

    I know there is a theory going around that the scene is a flashback and the girl is a young Madeleine. However, equal weight has been thrown around the theory that the Norway scene is the kidnapping and the girl is likely the scientist's daughter.
    If the latter is true...why would the scientist help Rami Malek's character if he killed his daughter? Wouldn't you rather die than help such a man?

    Surely, a villain would be smart enough to know this. It would only make sense that he kidnaps the girl and threatens her life - hence forcing her father to work with him and create his "dangerous new technology" to spare his daughter's life.

    I have a feeling that the girl in Norway has a bigger role than we think......maybe after the rescue attempt is botched, Bond realises the child is in danger and has to try and save her.

    I'm not sure the girl dies. We are on the same page again. @Pierce2Daniel

  • Posts: 787
    peter wrote: »
    @octofinger, it's very Silva wants revenge on Mother-- embarrass her, take away her power, murder her/double homicide.

    Simple enough.

    Well, sort of. But how does this fit in with his apparently best-on-earth powers as a hacker? Why does he suddenly want revenge on M now? He's been happily crashing stock markets and toppling governments with a single keystroke for a while, apparently. He can explode MI6 remotely. Why try to take her out in person? Why try to get caught? etc etc etc.

    Anyway, as I've said, I'm not allergic to 'tech' as an angle for villains, per se, I just think it needs a break. As a writer yourself I'm sure you appreciate that it's a bit of a floppy pole to use to hold up an action narrative. (Novels, I think, could work.) It pushes an inanimate intermediary between the antagonist and the action, it creates a black box around his 'powers', and requires either painful exposition or vague hand-waving around the procedures involved.

    How did I topple that foreign government? "Hacking!"

    Etc.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Although I enjoyed SF immensely (plot-holes and all), I absolutely agree that tech in a visual medium is usually boring as hell, @octofinger . There's not a lot of tension to be built when watching someone tap away at a keyboard (usually "racing" against the clock). And my brain turns off when the tech-babble/exposition rolls in.

    I'm still in wonder of Q's magic computer in SP that traces one ring back to all the enemies in Bond's life (that was a huge plot dumped right into the convenient device of the "super-computer", instead of finding another way (through story) of connecting these people to Bond), and; I'm still not sure what was going to happen to the world if 9Eyes went online in SP.

    Tech in films is usually connected to lazy and convenient writing (it can explain anything the villain does, as you say).



  • Posts: 787
    (For the record, I'm a very big fan of SF too.)

    For my part I think it would be a great fit for Craig's final film to be a little bit of a throwback: a tough villain with a visceral plot that Craig brings down mano-a-mano. Please, not more allusions to the mismatch between the old ways and the new, or poorly fleshed out techno-black boxes like 9-eyes or smart blood!
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,575
    peter wrote: »
    Although I enjoyed SF immensely (plot-holes and all), I absolutely agree that tech in a visual medium is usually boring as hell, @octofinger . There's not a lot of tension to be built when watching someone tap away at a keyboard (usually "racing" against the clock). And my brain turns off when the tech-babble/exposition rolls in.

    I'm still in wonder of Q's magic computer in SP that traces one ring back to all the enemies in Bond's life (that was a huge plot dumped right into the convenient device of the "super-computer", instead of finding another way (through story) of connecting these people to Bond), and; I'm still not sure what was going to happen to the world if 9Eyes went online in SP.

    Tech in films is usually connected to lazy and convenient writing (it can explain anything the villain does, as you say).


    That part always bothered me in SP. For a film that was supposed to connect all of the prior films and villians, it was a shotty way to do it. That it was a ring that connects them. Bond should have discovered that they were all Spectre agents when he was in White's secret room in Morocco.
  • Posts: 787
    peter wrote: »
    Although I enjoyed SF immensely (plot-holes and all), I absolutely agree that tech in a visual medium is usually boring as hell, @octofinger . There's not a lot of tension to be built when watching someone tap away at a keyboard (usually "racing" against the clock). And my brain turns off when the tech-babble/exposition rolls in.

    I'm still in wonder of Q's magic computer in SP that traces one ring back to all the enemies in Bond's life (that was a huge plot dumped right into the convenient device of the "super-computer", instead of finding another way (through story) of connecting these people to Bond), and; I'm still not sure what was going to happen to the world if 9Eyes went online in SP.

    Tech in films is usually connected to lazy and convenient writing (it can explain anything the villain does, as you say).


    That part always bothered me in SP. For a film that was supposed to connect all of the prior films and villians, it was a shotty way to do it. That it was a ring that connects them. Bond should have discovered that they were all Spectre agents when he was in White's secret room in Morocco.

    And that way we'd all make the discovery at the same time as Bond, and it could dawn on him (and us!) as he puts the pieces together. Instead . . . it's a laptop.

    Argh, SP! Every time I think about that film there are a handful more things I'd improve!
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,575
    octofinger wrote: »
    peter wrote: »
    Although I enjoyed SF immensely (plot-holes and all), I absolutely agree that tech in a visual medium is usually boring as hell, @octofinger . There's not a lot of tension to be built when watching someone tap away at a keyboard (usually "racing" against the clock). And my brain turns off when the tech-babble/exposition rolls in.

    I'm still in wonder of Q's magic computer in SP that traces one ring back to all the enemies in Bond's life (that was a huge plot dumped right into the convenient device of the "super-computer", instead of finding another way (through story) of connecting these people to Bond), and; I'm still not sure what was going to happen to the world if 9Eyes went online in SP.

    Tech in films is usually connected to lazy and convenient writing (it can explain anything the villain does, as you say).


    That part always bothered me in SP. For a film that was supposed to connect all of the prior films and villians, it was a shotty way to do it. That it was a ring that connects them. Bond should have discovered that they were all Spectre agents when he was in White's secret room in Morocco.

    And that way we'd all make the discovery at the same time as Bond, and it could dawn on him (and us!) as he puts the pieces together. Instead . . . it's a laptop.

    Argh, SP! Every time I think about that film there are a handful more things I'd improve!

    When us fans can do a better job than 4 different writers
  • Posts: 4,408
    My prediction is that the real plot is to 'find the girl'....

    Malek must be after her as she perhaps stole some of her Dad's data. Therefore, Bond will have to find and protect her.

    I expect this is Eon's way to do something new with the character. Effectively make him a surrogate father to this child.

    It's a cinematic trope that has been used numerous times. However, we haven't seen it in a Bond film yet. I'm imagining something to akin to the film You Were Never Really Here...



    If filming does take place in Norway over the coming days, I expect that child to turn up. On the other hand, they didn't reveal her casting in the press launch so maybe she isn't as significant as I'm suggesting. Though they may have considered it a spoiler and the actress likely isn't a 'name' (but nor was Dali Bensallah)
  • Posts: 787
    Look, I understand that writing a film is very hard work - especially a billion-dollar monster like Bond. But good lord, I consistently read ideas that would have greatly improved SP, from simple little fixes to overhauls.

    I like the movie, but it's still my most frustrating in terms of wasted potential.
  • Posts: 4,408
    octofinger wrote: »
    Look, I understand that writing a film is very hard work - especially a billion-dollar monster like Bond. But good lord, I consistently read ideas that would have greatly improved SP, from simple little fixes to overhauls.

    I like the movie, but it's still my most frustrating in terms of wasted potential.

    I always thought it would have been cooler if they didn't make Madeleine a 'damsel in distress' for the finale.

    Blofeld should have teased Bond that she was in the building. He could have heard her muffled screams in M's office, but when he busted down the door, he should have found a phone with a number to call. When he rang the number, we learn that Madeline is at St Pancreas about to get the Eurostar.

    Cue Blofeld saying "goodbye, James Bond". Bond realises he's been duped and has to escape.

    You can still have the pointless bridge scene with Madeline (she probably has enough time to get to Westminster. Alternatively, perhaps after Bond abadons Blofeld on the bridge, he walks off alone. Reuniting with Madeleine at St Pancreas.
  • edited June 2019 Posts: 6,709
    My prediction is that the real plot is to 'find the girl'....
    Malek must be after her as she perhaps stole some of her Dad's data. Therefore, Bond will have to find and protect her.
    I expect this is Eon's way to do something new with the character. Effectively make him a surrogate father to this child.

    As a fan, this would be a nightmare even worse than the brother gate stuff. If this is the case I'll have no choice to do a Pistolé number and fallback to plan B: Tenet.

    But I don't believe this will be the case. Fukunaga said he wanted to tell more about Madeleine, and the scene depicted is too close to home, literally, for Madeleine. In one way or another, this will be a scene reminiscent to her or a flashback. But I hope, either way, the girl doesn't spend more time in the movie than that particular scene. No Mini wolverines or short rounds, no Dakota Fannings kind of roles, please. That would be the death of it for me, I'm afraid.
  • ShardlakeShardlake Leeds, West Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 4,043
    octofinger wrote: »
    Look, I understand that writing a film is very hard work - especially a billion-dollar monster like Bond. But good lord, I consistently read ideas that would have greatly improved SP, from simple little fixes to overhauls.

    I like the movie, but it's still my most frustrating in terms of wasted potential.

    What @peter and I are working on might interest you then @octofinger.
    Let me tell you though it's not been easy, we are nearing the end of our 1st draft of our re-write of SPECTRE.

    I think we've definitely improved it, the ring scanning has gone, the Brofeld rubbish doesn't exist and Mr White while his role hasn't been increased, it's more integral to the whole and we think we've cracked how to make the scheme much more sinister and threatening. Also Peter's version of Blofeld is quite a terrifying presence, we haven't used Waltz as our model for him as well.

    Who knows when we'll be ready to share, although Peter will also agree it's been exciting, fun and somewhat scary taking on such a project.

    Peter is one hell of a talented screenwriter I can tell you, I feel very lucky to have someone like him collaborate on this with.
  • edited June 2019 Posts: 12,837
    No idea what the plot will be but can I just say that I really liked Blofeld's plan in SP? The film never gave it the right stakes or sense of scale unfortunately, because the focus was on the personal stuff (Brofeld, Vesper callbacks, Bond learning to walk away), but preying on public fears of terrorism like that is a really modern and clever villain scheme imo.
    My prediction is that the real plot is to 'find the girl'....

    Malek must be after her as she perhaps stole some of her Dad's data. Therefore, Bond will have to find and protect her.

    I expect this is Eon's way to do something new with the character. Effectively make him a surrogate father to this child.

    It's a cinematic trope that has been used numerous times. However, we haven't seen it in a Bond film yet. I'm imagining something to akin to the film You Were Never Really Here...



    If filming does take place in Norway over the coming days, I expect that child to turn up. On the other hand, they didn't reveal her casting in the press launch so maybe she isn't as significant as I'm suggesting. Though they may have considered it a spoiler and the actress likely isn't a 'name' (but nor was Dali Bensallah)

    This seems like a very good prediction. I'd been wondering how the girl would fit into things as it didn't seem that Madeline would have a big enough role in the story for it to be her, and I think you might be onto something here.

    Bond as a surrogate father figure would fit in with him either leaving Madeline or her dying too. Gives him a taste of a life that he's just been shown that he can never really have. And if the kid is the daughter of someone involved in the plot (like Madeline was), him saving her could be sort of redemption for failing to save Madeline?

    It seems very different and very Craig era. Would fit the Logan vibes too if that's what they're going for. Really think you might have nailed it.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,582
    peter wrote: »
    Although I enjoyed SF immensely (plot-holes and all), I absolutely agree that tech in a visual medium is usually boring as hell, @octofinger . There's not a lot of tension to be built when watching someone tap away at a keyboard (usually "racing" against the clock). And my brain turns off when the tech-babble/exposition rolls in.

    I'm still in wonder of Q's magic computer in SP that traces one ring back to all the enemies in Bond's life (that was a huge plot dumped right into the convenient device of the "super-computer", instead of finding another way (through story) of connecting these people to Bond), and; I'm still not sure what was going to happen to the world if 9Eyes went online in SP.

    Tech in films is usually connected to lazy and convenient writing (it can explain anything the villain does, as you say).



    I think what made SF different is that Silva insisted (arrogantly) to try to humiliate M on the ground, among all the "running around." It was actually his downfall.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,277
    No idea what the plot will be but can I just say that I really liked Blofeld's plan in SP? The film never gave it the right stakes or sense of scale unfortunately, because the focus was on the personal stuff (Brofeld, Vesper callbacks, Bond learning to walk away), but preying on public fears of terrorism like that is a really modern and clever villain scheme imo.
    My prediction is that the real plot is to 'find the girl'....

    Malek must be after her as she perhaps stole some of her Dad's data. Therefore, Bond will have to find and protect her.

    I expect this is Eon's way to do something new with the character. Effectively make him a surrogate father to this child.

    It's a cinematic trope that has been used numerous times. However, we haven't seen it in a Bond film yet. I'm imagining something to akin to the film You Were Never Really Here...



    If filming does take place in Norway over the coming days, I expect that child to turn up. On the other hand, they didn't reveal her casting in the press launch so maybe she isn't as significant as I'm suggesting. Though they may have considered it a spoiler and the actress likely isn't a 'name' (but nor was Dali Bensallah)

    This seems like a very good prediction. I'd been wondering how the girl would fit into things as it didn't seem that Madeline would have a big enough role in the story for it to be her, and I think you might be onto something here.

    Bond as a surrogate father figure would fit in with him either leaving Madeline or her dying too. Gives him a taste of a life that he's just been shown that he can never really have. And if the kid is the daughter of someone involved in the plot (like Madeline was), him saving her could be sort of redemption for failing to save Madeline?

    It seems very different and very Craig era. Would fit the Logan vibes too if that's what they're going for. Really think you might have nailed it.

    I don't love "child in danger" as a narrative device--too simple, too transparently pulling at the heartstrings. I hope this is a smaller portion of the story.

    Give me a "woman in danger" storyline, preferably a Bond love interest. Now that's classic Bond. Worked for Tracy, Vesper, etc.
  • Posts: 6,709
    echo wrote: »
    No idea what the plot will be but can I just say that I really liked Blofeld's plan in SP? The film never gave it the right stakes or sense of scale unfortunately, because the focus was on the personal stuff (Brofeld, Vesper callbacks, Bond learning to walk away), but preying on public fears of terrorism like that is a really modern and clever villain scheme imo.
    My prediction is that the real plot is to 'find the girl'....

    Malek must be after her as she perhaps stole some of her Dad's data. Therefore, Bond will have to find and protect her.

    I expect this is Eon's way to do something new with the character. Effectively make him a surrogate father to this child.

    It's a cinematic trope that has been used numerous times. However, we haven't seen it in a Bond film yet. I'm imagining something to akin to the film You Were Never Really Here...



    If filming does take place in Norway over the coming days, I expect that child to turn up. On the other hand, they didn't reveal her casting in the press launch so maybe she isn't as significant as I'm suggesting. Though they may have considered it a spoiler and the actress likely isn't a 'name' (but nor was Dali Bensallah)

    This seems like a very good prediction. I'd been wondering how the girl would fit into things as it didn't seem that Madeline would have a big enough role in the story for it to be her, and I think you might be onto something here.

    Bond as a surrogate father figure would fit in with him either leaving Madeline or her dying too. Gives him a taste of a life that he's just been shown that he can never really have. And if the kid is the daughter of someone involved in the plot (like Madeline was), him saving her could be sort of redemption for failing to save Madeline?

    It seems very different and very Craig era. Would fit the Logan vibes too if that's what they're going for. Really think you might have nailed it.

    I don't love "child in danger" as a narrative device--too simple, too transparently pulling at the heartstrings. I hope this is a smaller portion of the story.

    Give me a "woman in danger" storyline, preferably a Bond love interest. Now that's classic Bond. Worked for Tracy, Vesper, etc.

    This. Very much this.
  • edited June 2019 Posts: 128
    I wouldn't mind some sort of "child in danger" subplot because it would be something new and different for the series. All depends how it's handled.
  • Posts: 6,709
    A child has no place in a Bond film, IMO, except if briefly to add structure to a character.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Shardlake wrote: »
    octofinger wrote: »
    Look, I understand that writing a film is very hard work - especially a billion-dollar monster like Bond. But good lord, I consistently read ideas that would have greatly improved SP, from simple little fixes to overhauls.

    I like the movie, but it's still my most frustrating in terms of wasted potential.

    What @peter and I are working on might interest you then @octofinger.
    Let me tell you though it's not been easy, we are nearing the end of our 1st draft of our re-write of SPECTRE.

    I think we've definitely improved it, the ring scanning has gone, the Brofeld rubbish doesn't exist and Mr White while his role hasn't been increased, it's more integral to the whole and we think we've cracked how to make the scheme much more sinister and threatening. Also Peter's version of Blofeld is quite a terrifying presence, we haven't used Waltz as our model for him as well.

    Who knows when we'll be ready to share, although Peter will also agree it's been exciting, fun and somewhat scary taking on such a project.

    Peter is one hell of a talented screenwriter I can tell you, I feel very lucky to have someone like him collaborate on this with.

    @Shardlake makes one blush. As I said in a previous post, this was his brain-child and the man has some creative ideas and he should never underestimate his artistic nature.

    We will likely be savaged by some Mi6 readers, as to be expected.

    But our project has been fun and exciting, and I think we expose how weak the Spectre script was on so many levels (when you take chunks from that film and break it down...; often times Shardlake and I were left scratching our collective heads exclaiming (about the film we got), "but that makes zero sense!!!"...

    I am just finishing a re-write on a project I am on, and then Shardlake and I will finish the first draft of our Spectre, shortly. However, as Hemingway said, "The First Drat of Anything is shit", so we will be busy on something presentable for the discerning eyes of this site.
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