NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - Discuss Hans Zimmer's Score

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited September 2019 Posts: 8,179
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I would compare Bond with a Barry-esque sound, to Star Wars with a John Williams one. Would Star Wars even sound remotely the same, with a generic, ambient or experimental soundtrack?

    The answer is, of course, no. And why should Bond be any different to Star Wars.
    The series has a musical history and legacy that will always be associated with it, and any composer coming in, needs to reflect and respect that. I'm all for moving with the times, but there simply has to be some measure of distinctive, Bond-ish sound to it.

    Bond isn’t Star Wars. It’s a series of largely standalone adventures offering different flavors of their era, whereas Star Wars is supposed to be a saga, which demands a more uniform approach to make each film feel like a piece of the puzzle. This is especially benefited by the fact that John Williams has overseen every episode of the series.

    Whatever your feelings of Newman’s scores, he’s not being deviant in the way someone like Eric Serra was 25 years ago. In some respects, he’s even more conformative given that he used Arnold’s arrangement of the theme, which was already a modern recreation of the original 1962 theme. Personally I would have liked to see Newman give his own distinctive take on the theme instead, but beggars can’t be choosers.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    edited September 2019 Posts: 3,157
    he used Arnold’s arrangement of the theme, which was already a modern recreation of the original 1962 theme

    I'd be very surprised if that was his choice. If he really cared about the franchise, why wouldn't he reuse Vesper's theme when her tape was found in SPECTRE instead of using Arnold's rearrangement of the JB theme?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    Walecs wrote: »
    he used Arnold’s arrangement of the theme, which was already a modern recreation of the original 1962 theme

    I'd be very surprised if that was his choice. If he really cared about the franchise, why wouldn't he reuse Vesper's theme when her tape was found in SPECTRE instead of using Arnold's rearrangement of the JB theme?

    Probably because he's not an obsessive fan like us when it comes to those kind of minute details? You might as well ask if Conti was too lazy or simply didn't care about the franchise to slip in a nod to "We Have All the Time in the World" when Bond visited Tracy's grave. You see where I'm going with that?

    I get that us fans are passionate about these kinds of things, but it always annoys me seeing those types of accusations thrown at Newman with nothing to show. For a long time it was assumed that it was Newman's decision to recycle the music cues from SF for the SP soundtrack, and he got a lot of flack for it. Then it turned out the truth was that decision to reuse the SF sessions was all on Mendes and Lee Smith when they were compiling the workprint of the film.
  • edited September 2019 Posts: 5,767
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I would compare Bond with a Barry-esque sound, to Star Wars with a John Williams one. Would Star Wars even sound remotely the same, with a generic, ambient or experimental soundtrack?

    The answer is, of course, no. And why should Bond be any different to Star Wars.
    The series has a musical history and legacy that will always be associated with it, and any composer coming in, needs to reflect and respect that. I'm all for moving with the times, but there simply has to be some measure of distinctive, Bond-ish sound to it.
    The series lets go of a lot of legacy on all kinds of other levels, and does so quite successfully. I have no doubt that something completely new could work musically too, if it found the right tone, and I think that tone is not limited to what we nerds associate with a typical Bond sound.
    Where things get tricky is if composers actually find some defining melodies, which are then discarded when the next composer comes along. I don´t want to make Arnold into something bigger than he is, but he had that quite intriguing melody in QoS, which could easily have been developed into some kind of recurring theme, but hasn´t been used since. The same could happen to any composer. And that would be a pity.


    Btw, I think in the case of Star Wars a combination of magnificent prequels with a totally un-Williams-y score could have been very successful. Especially since so much time since ROTJ had passed, a new musical concept could have been introduced. Not that it would have been necessary. But it could have been feasible. Provided of course they had found an equally good composer ;-).
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    boldfinger wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I would compare Bond with a Barry-esque sound, to Star Wars with a John Williams one. Would Star Wars even sound remotely the same, with a generic, ambient or experimental soundtrack?

    The answer is, of course, no. And why should Bond be any different to Star Wars.
    The series has a musical history and legacy that will always be associated with it, and any composer coming in, needs to reflect and respect that. I'm all for moving with the times, but there simply has to be some measure of distinctive, Bond-ish sound to it.
    The series lets go of a lot of legacy on all kinds of other levels, and does so quite successfully. I have no doubt that something completely new could work musically too, if it found the right tone, and I think that tone is not limited to what we nerds associate with a typical Bond sound.
    Where things get tricky is if composers actually find some defining melodies, which are then discarded when the next composer comes along. I don´t want to make Arnold into something bigger than he is, but he had that quite intriguing melody in QoS, which could easily have been developed into some kind of recurring theme, but hasn´t been used since. The same could happen to any composer. And that would be a pity.

    I do quite like the theme for Madeleine that Newman created in SP, but I'd imagine that it will fall victim to this very scenario.
  • edited September 2019 Posts: 5,767
    @CraigMooreOHMSS, yes, that could easily be. I hadn´t thought at all of recurring characters big enough to have their own theme.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    And this is pretty common among film series changing composers, for better or worse. So when there is an attempt at carrying on themes or motif between films, I consider that more of a bonus than standard operating procedure. The three IRON MAN films each have a different composer, and as a result there was no thematic carryover musically. Would it have been better if they were all scored by Ramin Djawadi? Sure, it would be a bonus, but I don't necessarily think of them as lesser films without that.

    Is STAR TREK II: THE WRATH OF KHAN a lesser film for not continuing the theme that Jerry Goldsmith introduced in the first film? I'm sure there are some fans that believe so, but what James Horner brought was strong enough. I actually think the score by Leonard Rosenman for STAR TREK IV: THE VOYAGE HOME was perfectly suitable for the tone of that film, but that score also gets a lot of flack for not carrying over themes/motifs of the previous films.

    I guess you just can't please everyone.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    boldfinger wrote: »
    @CraigMooreOHMSS, yes, that could easily be. I hadn´t thought at all of recurring characters big enough to have their own theme.

    Of the recycled cues in SP, I actually thought it worked for scenes like Dench M's brief video appearance reprising "Mother". Using the "Skyfall" theme to represent Bond's past creeping back into his life when he gets a first glimpse of Blofeld worked as well. Reprising "Someone Usually Dies" during the Nine Eyes vote? Eh, no. If I were Mendes I would have had Newman create a new motif for C, so that could have been used instead.
  • WalecsWalecs On Her Majesty's Secret Service
    edited September 2019 Posts: 3,157
    For a long time it was assumed that it was Newman's decision to recycle the music cues from SF for the SP soundtrack, and he got a lot of flack for it. Then it turned out the truth was that decision to reuse the SF sessions was all on Mendes and Lee Smith when they were compiling the workprint of the film.
    I know, I'm the one who constantly tells everyone. Not only here but on Reddit as well
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    edited September 2019 Posts: 984
    Walecs wrote: »
    he used Arnold’s arrangement of the theme, which was already a modern recreation of the original 1962 theme

    I'd be very surprised if that was his choice. If he really cared about the franchise, why wouldn't he reuse Vesper's theme when her tape was found in SPECTRE instead of using Arnold's rearrangement of the JB theme?

    Probably because he's not an obsessive fan like us when it comes to those kind of minute details? You might as well ask if Conti was too lazy or simply didn't care about the franchise to slip in a nod to "We Have All the Time in the World" when Bond visited Tracy's grave. You see where I'm going with that?

    I get that us fans are passionate about these kinds of things, but it always annoys me seeing those types of accusations thrown at Newman with nothing to show. For a long time it was assumed that it was Newman's decision to recycle the music cues from SF for the SP soundtrack, and he got a lot of flack for it. Then it turned out the truth was that decision to reuse the SF sessions was all on Mendes and Lee Smith when they were compiling the workprint of the film.

    I'm not saying Newman is a bad composer, on the contrary The Shawshank score is one of my all time favourite's. And he didn't do anything very experimental either. But his scores where just bland and forgettable. He didn't incorporate the theme song in any of his cues (apart from once in SP and that was literally just the melody with the lyrics removed). He was simply a bad fit.

    My wife, who is a non-Bond fan even said upon viewing Skyfall "Apart from the song, it doesn't sound much like a Bond film".
  • DrClatterhandDrClatterhand United Kingdom
    Posts: 349
    I thought the Skyfall soundtrack was Bond's best in years. Severine was especially haunting and beautiful. That was light years ahead of anything David Arnold could compose. I don't like overly bombastic and brassy Bond scores in this day and age; they're anachronistic. Different strokes for different folks...
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    I thought the Skyfall soundtrack was Bond's best in years. Severine was especially haunting and beautiful. That was light years ahead of anything David Arnold could compose. I don't like overly bombastic and brassy Bond scores in this day and age; they're anachronistic. Different strokes for different folks...

    It doesn't have to be overly bombastic. David Arnold's score for QOS was arguably his best (one of the very few good things about that film) and it was a far more reserved effort with little brass. It still had the Bond-style sound, though.

    Not that I am suggesting Arnold was perfect, he didn't have ten percent of John Barry's ability, but he at least got some of the series legacy into his motif's.
  • Bentley007Bentley007 Manitoba, Canada
    Posts: 575
    jake24 wrote: »
    To focus more on Romer, one of his scores has just been released.


    danromer The score for Brimstone & Glory, me and Benh’s first orchestral score since Beasts of the Southern Wild, is out today! It’s all strings, horns, pianos, marimbas and dance beats. On all platforms, link in bio. Go listen!! @giantsfan2929 All percussion by @adamchristgau
    I'm less worried about Romer now. That's a good orchestral piece.

    I really enjoyed listening to this score. I am hoping that Romer incorporates sounds from the locations Bond visits. I appreciate that about Newmans Skyfall Score, Barrys From Russia with Love and Barrys You Only Live Twice
  • NS_writingsNS_writings Buenos Aires
    Posts: 544
    Tomorrow is September 15, that 40 schillings band will reveal their NTTD "surprise", whatever that is.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,767
    Standing by, @NS_writings.
  • NS_writingsNS_writings Buenos Aires
    edited September 2019 Posts: 544
    It's very unlikely that it is something huge and I have my doubts of it being official. Perhaps it's a song they "sumbitted" for the film and they didn't have an answer (as Swan Lee's TND or Straw's TWINE).

    End credits instrumental a la Crawl, End Crawl, maybe? Source music?
    Assuming they tell the truth that is.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,767
    Those are all reasonable possibilities. Or nothing at all. In the meantime I enjoy this little development.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    It's very unlikely that it is something huge and I have my doubts of it being official. Perhaps it's a song they "sumbitted" for the film and they didn't have an answer (as Swan Lee's TND or Straw's TWINE).

    End credits instrumental a la Crawl, End Crawl, maybe? Source music?
    Assuming they tell the truth that is.

    Something for the teaser trailer?
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Tomorrow is September 15, that 40 schillings band will reveal their NTTD "surprise", whatever that is.

    Nothing.
  • NS_writingsNS_writings Buenos Aires
    Posts: 544
    It's very unlikely

    Something for the teaser trailer?

    Doesn't sounds like trailer music to me, but let's see...
  • NS_writingsNS_writings Buenos Aires
    Posts: 544
  • Posts: 6,709

    It really is a poor effort. A really poor effort.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,179
    Have any submitted songs ever actually been accepted by EON? I've never delved into the process of how this all works. I always assumed someone gets the gig before they actually compose the song for the film so that they can capture the tone/theme of it. Like how Adele was given the script to base her song on.
  • NS_writingsNS_writings Buenos Aires
    Posts: 544
    Have any submitted songs ever actually been accepted by EON? I've never delved into the process of how this all works. I always assumed someone gets the gig before they actually compose the song for the film so that they can capture the tone/theme of it. Like how Adele was given the script to base her song on.

    Exactly. There's no such thing as a "rejected song" per se. I mean, every demo sent to EON/MGM is returned unopened or maybe even throw to the Garbage. That's what Mike Sandoval, former MGM Music director, said once to 007 Magazine. That was the case of Pulp's Tomorrow Never Lies and all the other songs.

    But you know, saying "rejected Bond song" gives you an extra popularity. ;)
  • Posts: 4,044
    Most of these tracks are unsolicited rather than rejected.

    I think a few qualify as rejected. The TND tracks where several groups were asked to provide a song, and all seemed to think they were the only ones who had been asked. Also, Radiohead seem to have been specifically asked. Dionne Warwick and Julie Rogers too.
  • M_BaljeM_Balje Amsterdam, Netherlands
    Posts: 4,512


    From episode 14 of second season. I think it have opening credits theme in it a bit. Very dramatic scene from a very strange episode.






  • These tracks have me very optimistic
  • boldfinger wrote: »
    .
    boldfinger wrote: »
    Newman's music in the PTS of SF really gave me a sense of the walls closing in on Bond in a way that made the sequence more riveting, especially once Moneypenny has Bond and Patrice in her sights, and it's incredibly effective when the music immediately cuts off the moment Moneypenny pulls the trigger.
    And then Newman goes in the opposite direction and rips the whole section of Bond going after Patrice in Macao into tiny little pieces, instead of gelling the different scenes into one big sequence. And when Bond fights the goons in the Macao casino, the music couldn´t have been more unmusical if Hans Zimmer himself had produced it.
    Newman undoubtedly has some really good tracks on SF as well as SP, but he is incredibly uneven.
    It would be wonderful if Romer would produce something that is not just a few good tracks, but a good soundtrack of the whole film.

    You mean where Bond follows Patrice in Shanghai? He’s is never in Macao. And I’ll upfront in that I think “Shanghai Drive” is a brilliant piece. This is the kind of style I wish Arnold had indulged more in during his run (“Hamburg Break In” is a favorite of mine). Composers should never feel shy of using rhythmic electronics in their scores for a Bond film.
    Yes, I mean Shanghai. And I never said that the individual tracks are not good. The individual tracks are very good. But they don´t gel with each other at all. They bring confusion to the whole sequence. The way the different pieces of music (which are mostly very good as standalone tracks) are put one after the other is exhausting and does not compliment the building of tension from the moment Bond watches Patrice at the airport until Bond fights Patrice up in the highrise building. A film score has the wonderful power to add to a story through development of one single piece of music. For example, the track Miami Airport from CR, as bland as it might be, kind of does this.



    To focus more on Romer, one of his scores has just been released.


    danromer The score for Brimstone & Glory, me and Benh’s first orchestral score since Beasts of the Southern Wild, is out today! It’s all strings, horns, pianos, marimbas and dance beats. On all platforms, link in bio. Go listen!! @giantsfan2929 All percussion by @adamchristgau
    Hm. Not sure what to make of this. Today´s composers are pretty much all trained to emulate all kinds of styles, I´m not surprised in the least that this features orchestra. But it doesn´t do very much with me.
    Anyhow, I have kind of a positive memory of his BonN soundtrack. If he doesn´t try too much to be mainstream on NTTD, I´m sure it will turn out well.

    The best example I've heard from Romer, but still not overly thrilled. Still no hummable tune, just a lot of layered noise that most other generic composers knock out these days. Ten a penny.
  • RyanRyan Canada
    Posts: 692
    Very nice stylistic choices in those latest examples from Romer. It still has the folk/indie vibe of his other compositions but I can easily imagine the Bond DNA weaved into it. I have faith.
  • zebrafishzebrafish <°)))< in Octopussy's garden in the shade
    Posts: 4,341
    And how much of these examples is Benh Zeitlins? It seems that Romer sounds more appropriate for NTTD with Zeitlin on his side.
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