NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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Comments

  • FeyadorFeyador Montreal, Canada
    Posts: 735
    BlondeBond wrote: »
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    I do wish we had smaller moments with Bond alone, just to drink in the supposed loneliness he felt during retirement, that drove him to sacrifice himself for the family he craved.

    It's a shame we were in such a rush to get back to London

    I agree in part, but Bond seemed to be very jaded and lonely. I think there is a huge difference in his entire demeanor between his Jamaica scenes and his Norway scenes which shows just how much he's evolved emotionally. There is that moment in Jamaica when Nomi accuses him of having nothing to live for and he stares at his lap for a while before looking up and it's written all over his face. Craig played it perfectly.

    Well stated!
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    @BlondeBond yeah I agree it was subtle and I think Craig played it fantastically. It's like Bond rediscovered himself as the film went on, when he got his tux on in Cuba his demeanour changed and he became James Bond the secret agent once again. I loved that

    I just wish we had more moments of him drinking and being solitary. It felt like he was barely in retirement and then when the film got to London the tone changed drastically as if his 5 years in Jamaica hadn't happened
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    edited October 2021 Posts: 1,165
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Minion wrote: »

    Casino Royale had a sad ending, and that did great.

    Skyfall had a sad ending, and that did great.

    ???
    Casino Royale ends with Bond standing over the villain, gun in hand, stating his name. That got applause back in 2006. And Skyfall ends with Bond going back to work "with pleasure." Also not a sad ending. I'm not even sure how you can compare those to NTTD.


    The comparison is: CR ended with Vesper dead... and Bond soldiering on. SF ended with M dead... and Bond soldiering on. NTTD ends with Bond dead...and Madeline soldiering on, telling Mathilde stories about her father. The saga comes full circle. Bond is dead, long live Bond. If you don't like the movie, too bad; your loss. I thought it was a great Bond flick and I'm not alone. I hope some day you'll join us...
    Not only did you expertly embellish my comment, but you just had to go and drop in that absolutely brilliant line as well. ^:)^
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,188
    If Purvis & Wade came up with a giant squid, or a killer who's most dangerous when there's a full moon, or had Bond believe he saw a statue move in response to his prayer, or did a comedy dream sequence of Bond's married life, I feel confident it would not be loved.

    As is, Fleming soaked Blofeld's story arc in coincidence, and people don't like that movie Blofeld is steeped in it as well. :-??

    I don't have issues with Blofeld in YOLT. Had NTTD played out the same way, I would have much preferred that. Safin as a villain meant nothing to Bond, whereas Blofeld did. There was a much bigger payoff. Safin was a waste.

    As for giant squid's, this seems to be one of the things Fleming haters keep falling back on to emphasise their point that going back to the books for unused material is bad.

    The point is that there’s a thing with fans giving weird Fleming elements a pass that they never would if it were under a different name.

    Like if Purvis & Wade came up with the girls being brainwashed into poisoning earth’s agriculture, there would be many fans talking about how ludicrous that is and how it brings down the film for them the same way nanobots brings down NTTD.

    But because Fleming came up with that nearly 60 years ago we don’t give it much thought like we would with a brand new film because in everyone’s minds it’s always been part of Fleming’s canon.

    Just like how in 40 years fandom will have reached a point of accepting NTTD as something that was done at one point in the franchise’s history and not really be all that bothered because by then it’s not seen as a novelty.

    I’ve seen this with Star Trek, where fans are so used to original TOS episodes having ludicrous storylines but if done today would balk at how silly it is.
  • Minion wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Minion wrote: »

    Casino Royale had a sad ending, and that did great.

    Skyfall had a sad ending, and that did great.

    ???
    Casino Royale ends with Bond standing over the villain, gun in hand, stating his name. That got applause back in 2006. And Skyfall ends with Bond going back to work "with pleasure." Also not a sad ending. I'm not even sure how you can compare those to NTTD.


    The comparison is: CR ended with Vesper dead... and Bond soldiering on. SF ended with M dead... and Bond soldiering on. NTTD ends with Bond dead...and Madeline soldiering on, telling Mathilde stories about her father. The saga comes full circle. Bond is dead, long live Bond. If you don't like the movie, too bad; your loss. I thought it was a great Bond flick and I'm not alone. I hope some day you'll join us...
    Not only did you expertly embellish my comment, but you just had to go and drop in that absolutely brilliant line as well. ^:)^

    Thanks, happy to be of help.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    You've only taken PART of my point to respond to and that really takes the whole issue out of context. As I've said, here & elsewhere: Bond is dead, LONG LIVE BOND. The next fellow may well be closer to your liking than Craig ever was. Live in hope, not in regret.
    Yes, sorry, no offence - I'm a glass half-full man...actually, I'm a glass-is-broken-on-the-floor-and-the-whisky's-spilled man, but you get the idea!

  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,281
    QBranch wrote: »
    Did @Dragonpol leave his review here yet, or still in shock? ;)
    I believe he went in mostly spoiler free, and I find those reviews the most interesting.

    Hi @QBranch. I saw NTTD on Sunday last but I'm still formulating my opinion on it after just one viewing on the big screen. On the whole I liked it but I need to mull over my words a little more before I type up an initial review of the film and my first impressions. Just glad that I finally got to see it on the big screen as all Bond films are intended to be seen. Will post my review ASAP though. :)
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    Posts: 12,480
    Venutius wrote: »
    You've only taken PART of my point to respond to and that really takes the whole issue out of context. As I've said, here & elsewhere: Bond is dead, LONG LIVE BOND. The next fellow may well be closer to your liking than Craig ever was. Live in hope, not in regret.
    Yes, sorry, no offence - I'm a glass half-full man...actually, I'm a glass-is-broken-on-the-floor-and-the-whisky's-spilled man, but you get the idea!

    A lot of whiskey has been drunk, and spilled, over NTTD. Somehow, I feel sure of that. ;)
  • 00Heaven00Heaven Home
    Posts: 575
    Venutius wrote: »
    You've only taken PART of my point to respond to and that really takes the whole issue out of context. As I've said, here & elsewhere: Bond is dead, LONG LIVE BOND. The next fellow may well be closer to your liking than Craig ever was. Live in hope, not in regret.
    Yes, sorry, no offence - I'm a glass half-full man...actually, I'm a glass-is-broken-on-the-floor-and-the-whisky's-spilled man, but you get the idea!

    Maybe that was Bond's ghost at the end of the movie that did that to you. Maybe the dead really are alive!

    :D
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2021 Posts: 3,152
    marc wrote: »
    Oh right, Guy Haines isn't tied up yet.
    Ah, but this multiverse stuff means there's a version of Bond's life where the deleted scene from QOS actually happened, right? Which means that Bond didn't just kill Haines in 2008, he killed Mr. White too - so, in that iteration, Bond never even met Madeleine, let alone the rest of it! ;)
  • Posts: 526
    Birdleson wrote: »
    They also did it with a Robin. And Wonder Woman, I believe.

    The point being: Change Happens. It's useless to try to resist; best perhaps to go with the flow.

    It could also be said that change for the sake of change isn’t a good concept.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    Spectre should have been Bond vs Mr. White. And not even introduce Spectre; keep Quantum. Take the supposed Quantum of Solace ending and tie it up. Guy Haines and White, Bond gets both. Write DC Bond 4 based around the ending, and CR plus QOs. Forget Skyfall in the 4th movie.

    1. No need to reach, and introduce such unnecessary story elements (Blofeld, Spectre, etc.)
    2. Bond takes on Quantum and wins. Exposes its worldwide syndicate, and saves the day.
    3. No Madeline and Mr. White garbage. Madeline isn’t in the film.
    4. The best part, there is no NTTD
    5. Call the movie Risico

    They could have easily made White Blofeld in SP.
  • Posts: 526
    echo wrote: »
    Spectre should have been Bond vs Mr. White. And not even introduce Spectre; keep Quantum. Take the supposed Quantum of Solace ending and tie it up. Guy Haines and White, Bond gets both. Write DC Bond 4 based around the ending, and CR plus QOs. Forget Skyfall in the 4th movie.

    1. No need to reach, and introduce such unnecessary story elements (Blofeld, Spectre, etc.)
    2. Bond takes on Quantum and wins. Exposes its worldwide syndicate, and saves the day.
    3. No Madeline and Mr. White garbage. Madeline isn’t in the film.
    4. The best part, there is no NTTD
    5. Call the movie Risico

    They could have easily made White Blofeld in SP.

    Precisely, yes. Jesper Christensen was a much better actor than Waltz in the Bond movies imo. Blofeld came off as goofy. Not once did he feel dangerous in Spectre. White, even in his deathly state, was much more entrancing than Waltz.
  • Posts: 1,970
    Anyone who hasn't listen I recommend going and listening to Now Playing movie review podcast and listening to their No Time To Die review. A really good in depth review and it changed a lot of what I about NTTD.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2021 Posts: 3,152
    A lot of whiskey has been drunk, and spilled, over NTTD. Somehow, I feel sure of that. ;)
    Indeed, so.

  • Posts: 1,078
    BlondeBond wrote: »
    There is that moment in Jamaica when Nomi accuses him of having nothing to live for and he stares at his lap for a while before looking up and it's written all over his face. Craig played it perfectly.

    That's lovely.

    But it's not James Bond.
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    BlondeBond wrote: »
    There is that moment in Jamaica when Nomi accuses him of having nothing to live for and he stares at his lap for a while before looking up and it's written all over his face. Craig played it perfectly.

    That's lovely.

    But it's not James Bond.

    Says who? You? Are you a long lost descendant of Ian Fleming's?
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited October 2021 Posts: 7,551
    Minion wrote: »
    BlondeBond wrote: »
    There is that moment in Jamaica when Nomi accuses him of having nothing to live for and he stares at his lap for a while before looking up and it's written all over his face. Craig played it perfectly.

    That's lovely.

    But it's not James Bond.

    Says who? You? Are you a long lost descendant of Ian Fleming's?

    This. I love when people tell us what is and is not "Bond".

    People have their own "idea" of what Bond is and isn't. No one, certainly this Colonel, is any kind of grand arbiter on what Bond is.

    I suspect Bond in the novels does a great many things that certain people might say is "not Bond". Getting married?? Certainly not!
  • MinionMinion Don't Hassle the Bond
    Posts: 1,165
    Minion wrote: »
    BlondeBond wrote: »
    There is that moment in Jamaica when Nomi accuses him of having nothing to live for and he stares at his lap for a while before looking up and it's written all over his face. Craig played it perfectly.

    That's lovely.

    But it's not James Bond.

    Says who? You? Are you a long lost descendant of Ian Fleming's?

    This. I love when people tell us what is and is not "Bond".

    People have their own "idea" of what Bond is and isn't. No one, certainly this Colonel, is any kind of grand arbiter on what Bond is.

    I suspect Bond in the novels does a great many things that certain people might say is "not Bond". Getting married?? Certainly not!

    “Bond should never have a child!”



    “No, I haven’t read the books!”
  • Posts: 36
    About to head for my third time seeing it! I'm sure I'll love it as much as the first two.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,551
    Minion wrote: »
    Minion wrote: »
    BlondeBond wrote: »
    There is that moment in Jamaica when Nomi accuses him of having nothing to live for and he stares at his lap for a while before looking up and it's written all over his face. Craig played it perfectly.

    That's lovely.

    But it's not James Bond.

    Says who? You? Are you a long lost descendant of Ian Fleming's?

    This. I love when people tell us what is and is not "Bond".

    People have their own "idea" of what Bond is and isn't. No one, certainly this Colonel, is any kind of grand arbiter on what Bond is.

    I suspect Bond in the novels does a great many things that certain people might say is "not Bond". Getting married?? Certainly not!

    “Bond should never have a child!”



    “No, I haven’t read the books!”

    The sheer amount of little "Mathildes" there must be running around all over the world...
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited October 2021 Posts: 693
    I don't think anyone here is being unreasonable by disliking NTTD's conclusion, nor is anyone saying that the Bond movies need to be carbon copies of one another. After all, this is a series that runs the gamut from near-fantasy (YOLT, MR, DAD) to dark and gritty (FRWL, LTK, QOS). But killing off Craig's Bond just seems to cross a major line that they shouldn't cross for obvious reasons.
    I guess people take me as a hardliner on this, but there isn't actually any type of Bond movie I prefer over another. Two of my personal favorites are LTK and TMWGG. One is a fairly hardcore revenge movie, the other is basically a comedy. I like Bond when he's driving motorized gondolas through Venice just as much as when he's strangling enemy agents to death in train cars. I wasn't even really bothered when he surfed a tidal wave. I really only have two rules for Bond:
    1. Don't radically alter his identity.
    2. Don't kill him off.
    #2 is something that I didn't think they'd ever do, so obviously when I accidentally read a spoiler for NTTD I was pretty pissed off because to me it seemed like such an obvious- and simple- rule to follow.
  • Posts: 3,327
    If Purvis & Wade came up with a giant squid, or a killer who's most dangerous when there's a full moon, or had Bond believe he saw a statue move in response to his prayer, or did a comedy dream sequence of Bond's married life, I feel confident it would not be loved.

    As is, Fleming soaked Blofeld's story arc in coincidence, and people don't like that movie Blofeld is steeped in it as well. :-??

    I don't have issues with Blofeld in YOLT. Had NTTD played out the same way, I would have much preferred that. Safin as a villain meant nothing to Bond, whereas Blofeld did. There was a much bigger payoff. Safin was a waste.

    As for giant squid's, this seems to be one of the things Fleming haters keep falling back on to emphasise their point that going back to the books for unused material is bad.

    The point is that there’s a thing with fans giving weird Fleming elements a pass that they never would if it were under a different name.

    Like if Purvis & Wade came up with the girls being brainwashed into poisoning earth’s agriculture, there would be many fans talking about how ludicrous that is and how it brings down the film for them the same way nanobots brings down NTTD.

    But because Fleming came up with that nearly 60 years ago we don’t give it much thought like we would with a brand new film because in everyone’s minds it’s always been part of Fleming’s canon.

    Just like how in 40 years fandom will have reached a point of accepting NTTD as something that was done at one point in the franchise’s history and not really be all that bothered because by then it’s not seen as a novelty.

    I’ve seen this with Star Trek, where fans are so used to original TOS episodes having ludicrous storylines but if done today would balk at how silly it is.

    There are certain things from the novels you would never adapt, and the giant squid is probably one of them, so is a nodding statue. So I agree that not all Fleming is sacrosanct.

    But I genuinely think the end of the YOLT would have played out better than what we eventually got instead on screen from P&W. Blofeld instead of Safin (much bigger payoff), Bond kills Blofeld then escapes off the island only to be shot and loses his memory. Still tragic, still dramatic, still sad, but makes the film a cliffhanger ending rather than such a controversial ending to divide the fanbase.

    Or at least have him dive off the island as it blows up, and then Bond is presumed dead. Did he make it, or didn't he. You could still have the obituary scenes afterwards. This again keeps in line with Fleming.

  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited October 2021 Posts: 5,970
    Or at least have him dive off the island as it blows up, and then Bond is presumed dead. Did he make it, or didn't he. You could still have the obituary scenes afterwards. This again keeps in line with Fleming.
    The problem though is that they already had Bond be presumed dead, and so to end Craig's era with basically the opening of one of his other films would probably come across as quite lazy and also doesn't really fit with his character arc, given this is the end of his story, whereas I feel the ending we got did. Each film has shown us how he can't live a normal life because he cannot escape his life as a 00, it's literally a part of him, and I believe the nanobots were somewhat symbolic of that. D

    I also feel that to show Bond diving off the island would just be having your cake and eating it too because you'd go through all the emotion of his eventual death, including his talk with Madeleine and the response from MI6, to then just have him dive away at the last minute, all for a payoff that's not gonna come because again Bond 26 was always going to be a reboot.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Or at least have him dive off the island as it blows up, and then Bond is presumed dead. Did he make it, or didn't he. You could still have the obituary scenes afterwards. This again keeps in line with Fleming.
    The problem though is that they already had Bond be presumed dead, and so to end Craig's era with basically the opening of one of his other films would probably come across as quite lazy and also doesn't really fit with his character arc, given this is the end of his story, whereas I feel the ending we got did. Each film has shown us how he can't live a normal life because he cannot escape his life as a 00, it's literally a part of him, and I believe the nanobots were somewhat symbolic of that. D

    I also feel that to show Bond diving off the island would just be having your cake and eating it too because you'd go through all the emotion of his eventual death, including his talk with Madeleine and the response from MI6, to then just have him dive away at the last minute, all for a payoff that's not gonna come because again Bond 26 was always going to be a reboot.

    Ok, so you are one of the fans who actually wanted Bond dead at the end of this film then, rather than an ambiguous ending. What about the ending that Fleming wrote, the final chapter Sparrows Tears?

    And what about my other point which they didn't adapt - Blofeld instead of Safin. You really think this Safin character carried more weight and significance than Blofeld?
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Or at least have him dive off the island as it blows up, and then Bond is presumed dead. Did he make it, or didn't he. You could still have the obituary scenes afterwards. This again keeps in line with Fleming.
    The problem though is that they already had Bond be presumed dead, and so to end Craig's era with basically the opening of one of his other films would probably come across as quite lazy and also doesn't really fit with his character arc, given this is the end of his story, whereas I feel the ending we got did. Each film has shown us how he can't live a normal life because he cannot escape his life as a 00, it's literally a part of him, and I believe the nanobots were somewhat symbolic of that. D

    I also feel that to show Bond diving off the island would just be having your cake and eating it too because you'd go through all the emotion of his eventual death, including his talk with Madeleine and the response from MI6, to then just have him dive away at the last minute, all for a payoff that's not gonna come because again Bond 26 was always going to be a reboot.
    Ok, so you are one of the fans who actually wanted Bond dead at the end of this film then, rather than an ambiguous ending. What about the ending that Fleming wrote, the final chapter Sparrows Tears?

    And what about my other point which they didn't adapt - Blofeld instead of Safin. You really think this Safin character carried more weight and significance than Blofeld?
    I just wanted a good end to Craig's arc, which I think we got, and I feel the ending we got was justified considering everything else his Bond has gone through, and to be honest, an ambiguous ending would be kind of pointless, unless they were gonna continue the story, which they were never going to do.

    As for the whole Blofeld or Safin thing, I would have preferred Blofeld to have had a better ending, yes, but I also enjoyed what we did get from Safin. Even if he was slightly underwritten, I preferred Safin much more than Blofeld in Spectre, so was happy to have a more refreshing main villain in the story.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Denbigh wrote: »
    Or at least have him dive off the island as it blows up, and then Bond is presumed dead. Did he make it, or didn't he. You could still have the obituary scenes afterwards. This again keeps in line with Fleming.
    The problem though is that they already had Bond be presumed dead, and so to end Craig's era with basically the opening of one of his other films would probably come across as quite lazy and also doesn't really fit with his character arc, given this is the end of his story, whereas I feel the ending we got did. Each film has shown us how he can't live a normal life because he cannot escape his life as a 00, it's literally a part of him, and I believe the nanobots were somewhat symbolic of that. D

    I also feel that to show Bond diving off the island would just be having your cake and eating it too because you'd go through all the emotion of his eventual death, including his talk with Madeleine and the response from MI6, to then just have him dive away at the last minute, all for a payoff that's not gonna come because again Bond 26 was always going to be a reboot.
    Ok, so you are one of the fans who actually wanted Bond dead at the end of this film then, rather than an ambiguous ending. What about the ending that Fleming wrote, the final chapter Sparrows Tears?

    And what about my other point which they didn't adapt - Blofeld instead of Safin. You really think this Safin character carried more weight and significance than Blofeld?
    I just wanted a good end to Craig's arc, which I think we got, and I feel the ending we got was justified considering everything else his Bond has gone through, and to be honest, an ambiguous ending would be kind of pointless, unless they were gonna continue the story, which they were never going to do.

    As for the whole Blofeld or Safin thing, I would have preferred Blofeld to have had a better ending, yes, but I also enjoyed what we did get from Safin. Even if he was slightly underwritten, I preferred Safin much more than Blofeld in Spectre, so was happy to have a more refreshing main villain in the story.

    Fair enough. Sounds like you got the exact ending you want, and you thought it couldn't be improved upon. I really wish I could see it this way too.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    Posts: 5,970
    Birdleson wrote: »
    It wouldn't be pointless. Not to me. I would have preferred an ambiguous ending regardless of Craig's departure. The value is in the viewer/fan/beholder.
    And that's all fair, but do you not think it would have completely undone all the emotional weight we'd just seen in his final moments?
  • Posts: 526
    slide_99 wrote: »
    I don't think anyone here is being unreasonable by disliking NTTD's conclusion, nor is anyone saying that the Bond movies need to be carbon copies of one another. After all, this is a series that runs the gamut from near-fantasy (YOLT, MR, DAD) to dark and gritty (FRWL, LTK, QOS). But killing off Craig's Bond just seems to cross a major line that they shouldn't cross for obvious reasons.
    I guess people take me as a hardliner on this, but there isn't actually any type of Bond movie I prefer over another. Two of my personal favorites are LTK and TMWGG. One is a fairly hardcore revenge movie, the other is basically a comedy. I like Bond when he's driving motorized gondolas through Venice just as much as when he's strangling enemy agents to death in train cars. I wasn't even really bothered when he surfed a tidal wave. I really only have two rules for Bond:
    1. Don't radically alter his identity.
    2. Don't kill him off.
    #2 is something that I didn't think they'd ever do, so obviously when I accidentally read a spoiler for NTTD I was pretty pissed off because to me it seemed like such an obvious- and simple- rule to follow.
    I’m with you. Agree 100% on both counts.
  • If Purvis & Wade came up with a giant squid, or a killer who's most dangerous when there's a full moon, or had Bond believe he saw a statue move in response to his prayer, or did a comedy dream sequence of Bond's married life, I feel confident it would not be loved.

    As is, Fleming soaked Blofeld's story arc in coincidence, and people don't like that movie Blofeld is steeped in it as well. :-??

    I don't have issues with Blofeld in YOLT. Had NTTD played out the same way, I would have much preferred that. Safin as a villain meant nothing to Bond, whereas Blofeld did. There was a much bigger payoff. Safin was a waste.

    As for giant squid's, this seems to be one of the things Fleming haters keep falling back on to emphasise their point that going back to the books for unused material is bad.

    The point is that there’s a thing with fans giving weird Fleming elements a pass that they never would if it were under a different name.

    Like if Purvis & Wade came up with the girls being brainwashed into poisoning earth’s agriculture, there would be many fans talking about how ludicrous that is and how it brings down the film for them the same way nanobots brings down NTTD.

    But because Fleming came up with that nearly 60 years ago we don’t give it much thought like we would with a brand new film because in everyone’s minds it’s always been part of Fleming’s canon.

    Just like how in 40 years fandom will have reached a point of accepting NTTD as something that was done at one point in the franchise’s history and not really be all that bothered because by then it’s not seen as a novelty.

    I’ve seen this with Star Trek, where fans are so used to original TOS episodes having ludicrous storylines but if done today would balk at how silly it is.

    There are certain things from the novels you would never adapt, and the giant squid is probably one of them, so is a nodding statue. So I agree that not all Fleming is sacrosanct.

    There was never a literal nodding statue in Fleming. Just Bond second-guessing whether a statue had nodded while feeling particularly superstitious. The same as people jumping at shadows.

    The giant squid, on the other hand, is well overdue and hopefully will turn up during the next Bond's run.
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