NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 216
    There’s a couple of bits that require leaps on intuitive narrative logic that could have done with a bit more signposting than the odd word buried in dialogue, and you have to wonder if the Inferno-esque (as in the Dan Brown novel/film) elements were toned down (and nano machines added…) when the pandemic happened. I would lay odds on that leading to some of the odder things in the finale of the film. There’s enough to infer a lot of motivations and connective tissue if you pay attention, but despite being a long film, things get rushed.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    I don't think the film was changed at all because of the pandemic; it had been finished before that. Although there's some stuff in there which feels left over from a previous draft (why is there a poisonous algae farm if the weapon is made out of tiny robots?).
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 216
    mtm wrote: »
    I don't think the film was changed at all because of the pandemic; it had been finished before that. Although there's some stuff in there which feels left over from a previous draft (why is there a poisonous algae farm if the weapon is made out of tiny robots?).

    I think the truth will not out for some time, but I also think you’ve answered your own question. Film is somewhat malleable, and they have been known to be finished many times.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2022 Posts: 16,383
    No, they didn't do any new shooting- imagine how expensive it would have been with all of the scenes that nanobots are mentioned in. The Aston Martin Valhalla had actually been redesigned after the film was shot (and before it was released) and they didn't even swap that out using CG for the new version.
  • edited June 2022 Posts: 4,139
    JustJames wrote: »
    There’s a couple of bits that require leaps on intuitive narrative logic that could have done with a bit more signposting than the odd word buried in dialogue, and you have to wonder if the Inferno-esque (as in the Dan Brown novel/film) elements were toned down (and nano machines added…) when the pandemic happened. I would lay odds on that leading to some of the odder things in the finale of the film. There’s enough to infer a lot of motivations and connective tissue if you pay attention, but despite being a long film, things get rushed.

    The finale of the film is strange. I know that Craig and Malek went off and actually rewrote/improvised much of the Safin/Bond dialogue... it begs the question of what was originally written as Safin's motives get very muddled during that encounter with all this 'invisible God' nonsense. Then there's the issue of these 'buyer ships'... to me it looks like those shots were added with effects in post to stimulate tension and the verbal references to 'buyers' were ADR'd... to be honest it'd be interesting to know the backstory of the production, as from what little I understand it seems like Malek was only available for a short time for those scenes and rewrites were constantly happening...
  • JustJamesJustJames London
    Posts: 216
    mtm wrote: »
    No, they didn't do any new shooting- imagine how expensive it would have been with all of the scenes that nanobots are mentioned in. The Aston Martin Valhalla had actually been redesigned after the film was shot (and before it was released) and they didn't even swap that out using CG for the new version.

    Wouldn’t need reshoots, just a bit of ADR (Malik in particular has a lot of back of the head shots) maybe some rejigged inlay graphics on computer displays and some hefty editing around the garden and hazmat suits at the end. Though for the record, I think nanobots may always have been in, but the viral aspects were more pronounced. (as they are at the beginning of the story… why would nanobot researchers need smallpox viruses?) Theres a very heavy dose of Metal Gear Solid influence in modern Bond films for a start.

  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited June 2022 Posts: 3,152
    I think with Bourne, the point was that after Marie was killed he realised that he couldn't live a normal life even if he tried - so he no longer tried. That way, he was the only one living with the damage. Course, in my world there aren't any sequels to The Bourne Identity and Bourne and Marie are running that scooter and surf shop on Mykonos to this day. ;)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    JustJames wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    No, they didn't do any new shooting- imagine how expensive it would have been with all of the scenes that nanobots are mentioned in. The Aston Martin Valhalla had actually been redesigned after the film was shot (and before it was released) and they didn't even swap that out using CG for the new version.

    Wouldn’t need reshoots, just a bit of ADR (Malik in particular has a lot of back of the head shots) maybe some rejigged inlay graphics on computer displays and some hefty editing around the garden and hazmat suits at the end. Though for the record, I think nanobots may always have been in, but the viral aspects were more pronounced. (as they are at the beginning of the story… why would nanobot researchers need smallpox viruses?) Theres a very heavy dose of Metal Gear Solid influence in modern Bond films for a start.

    I don't really know where you're getting that idea from.
  • Posts: 4,139
    I suspect the nanobots transmitting a deadly poison was always there... I mean, it's a pretty good reason for them to have delayed release of this film as many times as they did (financial incentives aside).
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    JustJames wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    No, they didn't do any new shooting- imagine how expensive it would have been with all of the scenes that nanobots are mentioned in. The Aston Martin Valhalla had actually been redesigned after the film was shot (and before it was released) and they didn't even swap that out using CG for the new version.

    Wouldn’t need reshoots, just a bit of ADR (Malik in particular has a lot of back of the head shots) maybe some rejigged inlay graphics on computer displays and some hefty editing around the garden and hazmat suits at the end. Though for the record, I think nanobots may always have been in, but the viral aspects were more pronounced. (as they are at the beginning of the story… why would nanobot researchers need smallpox viruses?) Theres a very heavy dose of Metal Gear Solid influence in modern Bond films for a start.

    They already had all the prints for April 2020...it would have been very expensive to redo everything in March 2020.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2022 Posts: 16,383
    007HallY wrote: »
    I suspect the nanobots transmitting a deadly poison was always there... I mean, it's a pretty good reason for them to have delayed release of this film as many times as they did (financial incentives aside).

    Yeah, do the nanobots actually carry a little viral load of the algae-derived organic poison in them? I'm not sure how they're supposed to work.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Bond interacts with the little girl for only about a minute or two in the entire film and this will more than like be the only film we ever see it. But the folks complaining about it make it sound like he plays daddy all throughout the film. It’s funny how that one thing triggers them into hating the film.
  • edited June 2022 Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I suspect the nanobots transmitting a deadly poison was always there... I mean, it's a pretty good reason for them to have delayed release of this film as many times as they did (financial incentives aside).

    Yeah, do the nanobots actually carry a little viral load of the algae-derived organic poison in them? I'm not sure how they're supposed to work.

    It's not organic poison I suppose (specialised poison? A weaponised virus? I dunno, whatever they say it is in the damn film, it' genetically engineered or whatever and they harp on about it at length to set Bond up to die anyway).

    My point was that I think the nanobot virus/poison/whatever thing was most likely always there and not added later into filming or in post etc.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited June 2022 Posts: 3,789
    Many people were agreeing with Higson.

    I'm still partial to his opinion, but what I don't understand was to call the concept of Bond having a family boring? I'm not a fan of Bond having a family but it's not boring but because I'm not used to seeing Bond that way, that's a critical change to the character.
    I did laughed at his mention of Ejector seat though.

    I've seen some comments at Daily Mail and they're all bashing the film, calling it woke, boring and terrible, and those were harsh.

    Haven't read his books yet, which I'm going to try maybe next month if I'll find some copies online.
  • Made my way to Matera, a trip originally planned for summer 2020, but, like the film's release itself, kept getting postponed.
    Needless to say, really heightened my love for the film, particularly the stellar PTS. Feels ripped straight from the movie. Great location scouting, even if it were just for tax breaks.
    Pics:
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Nice!

    Great to see you back, old chap!
  • Posts: 1,078
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    Many people were agreeing with Higson.

    I think he makes a good point. A lot of us didn't like the James Bond we were served up in NTTD, and luckily there are forums like this where we can explain our objections to people that sometimes don't understand them.
    There are lots of 'interesting' things you could do with the James Bond character. You could give him a long lost sister, or you could make him adopted and he didn't know, and his real dad could be the villain. They could make him leave the service and work in a florists or become a mechanic. They could make him a proper villain, or change his sexuality, or his gender even. All these could be seen as interesting new aspects on the character that perhaps some fans would welcome. But there will always be other fans who would consider these things to far removed from Fleming's creation to be palatable.
    Which is why I don't like what they did in NTTD. Fleming never made Bond a dad, and he never killed him off*, and I'd have liked it better if they'd kept it that way. And it seems there are quite a few people who think the same, judging by the comments following the Higson piece.

    *And yes, I've read FRWL and YOLT.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2022 Posts: 16,383
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    I've seen some comments at Daily Mail and they're all bashing the film, calling it woke, boring and terrible, and those were harsh.

    It's the Daily Mail, there's always comments under each article calling everything woke. I bet a few of them were even blaming the BBC :)
    Made my way to Matera, a trip originally planned for summer 2020, but, like the film's release itself, kept getting postponed.
    Needless to say, really heightened my love for the film, particularly the stellar PTS. Feels ripped straight from the movie. Great location scouting, even if it were just for tax breaks.
    Pics:

    Wonderful! Looks like you had a fantastic time.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Thankfully Eon isn’t beholden to what Fleming did and didn’t do with Bond, otherwise we’d never have seen the filmmakers take the liberties they have since 1962.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Thankfully Eon isn’t beholden to what Fleming did and didn’t do with Bond, otherwise we’d never have seen the filmmakers take the liberties they have since 1962.

    Yup, I think Bond would be all the poorer if he couldn't have driven an underwater Lotus or quit his job to go after Sanchez or met Blofeld in a hollowed-out volcano.
  • Posts: 1,078
    It's one thing to put him in similar adventures that Fleming didn't write, it's another thing to kill him off.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Sounds quite similar to FRWL then.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    It's one thing to put him in similar adventures that Fleming didn't write, it's another thing to kill him off.

    Give him a submarine car, kill him, whatever. It’s all fictional. It doesn’t really matter. If killing Bond bothers you that much, maybe you need to be more emotionally detached to these things.
  • Posts: 4,139
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    Charlie Higson's opinions about No Time To Die.

    Author behind Young Bond series criticises the latest film No Time To Die for portraying 007 as a boring family man

    Charlie Higson joked that 007 should have triggered his girlfriend's ejector seat and resumed his adventure. The author 'absolutely hated' the flick as it was like watching 007 'mow the lawn'.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10953127/Young-Bond-author-calls-007-boring-family-man-latest-film-No-Time-Die.html#article-10953127

    There's a touch of irony to the author of the Young Bond series saying you don't need to worry about Bond having a backstory...

    Personally I wasn't a fan of how the daughter subplot was handled. Then again I also hate the Young Bond novels... ah well.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    007HallY wrote: »
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    Charlie Higson's opinions about No Time To Die.

    Author behind Young Bond series criticises the latest film No Time To Die for portraying 007 as a boring family man

    Charlie Higson joked that 007 should have triggered his girlfriend's ejector seat and resumed his adventure. The author 'absolutely hated' the flick as it was like watching 007 'mow the lawn'.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10953127/Young-Bond-author-calls-007-boring-family-man-latest-film-No-Time-Die.html#article-10953127

    There's a touch of irony to the author of the Young Bond series saying you don't need to worry about Bond having a backstory...

    Yeah it's a curious choice. Maybe I don't want to see Bond as a little boy spending time with his aunt, but I got it.

    And, incidentally, I thought Higson's books were terrific, and actually came the closest to feeling like Fleming than any of the other continuation authors. It's not the exact words of what you say, but the tone of voice and mindset of how you say it.
  • Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    Charlie Higson's opinions about No Time To Die.

    Author behind Young Bond series criticises the latest film No Time To Die for portraying 007 as a boring family man

    Charlie Higson joked that 007 should have triggered his girlfriend's ejector seat and resumed his adventure. The author 'absolutely hated' the flick as it was like watching 007 'mow the lawn'.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10953127/Young-Bond-author-calls-007-boring-family-man-latest-film-No-Time-Die.html#article-10953127

    There's a touch of irony to the author of the Young Bond series saying you don't need to worry about Bond having a backstory...

    Yeah it's a curious choice. Maybe I don't want to see Bond as a little boy spending time with his aunt, but I got it.

    And, incidentally, I thought Higson's books were terrific, and actually came the closest to feeling like Fleming than any of the other continuation authors. It's not the exact words of what you say, but the tone of voice and mindset of how you say it.

    They were never for me personally. I imagine Bond's youth at Eton and with his Aunt to have been rather boring if anything. It would make more sense that such a dreary and oppressive atmosphere would have contributed to Bond as a man - y'know, someone who has this attraction to danger, adventure and vice, but also gets bored rather easily in his own day to day life. I'd imagine if danger followed Bond around even when he was young he'd want to do anything to avoid it as an adult, having seen the consequences. If anything it seems that Bond's life only got a bit more interesting when he went to Fettes and then the Navy going from the YOLT obituary...

    Then again, I accept that that's just me. I never found them all that engaging personally.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,383
    Yeah absolutely, I don't see them as the backstory to the guy in the Fleming books necessarily, I just find them very enjoyable adventure yarns in the same vein as the Fleming books.
  • edited June 2022 Posts: 4,139
    True, and I will say as books that are meant to be marketed to and read by teenagers, Higson does a good job. Maybe I'm just pedantic!

    I will say that it does make me appreciate something like Skyfall more. The idea of Bond spending a chunk of his youth in this isolated, very large house makes perfect sense. It looks like a horrible place even in its prime for a child to live in. It makes sense in some odd way that such a boy, especially after the death of his parents, would grow up and work in a profession where he has to travel to different locations and engage in dangerous adventures.
  • CharmianBondCharmianBond Pett Bottom, Kent
    Posts: 557
    Well as Higson writes himself, 'I sometimes wonder what Ian Fleming would have made of my books. I don't imagine for one moment think this was the childhood he imagined for his hero. I expect he thought James would have had a pretty normal childhood before the war broke out. But you lot wouldn't have wanted to read about James doing his homework and playing football and getting a cold and being bored in lessons... No. What we want from James Bond is a world of hight adventure, so I hope Ian Fleming will forgive me and I do hope he would have liked my stories.'

    Again it goes back to the argument of doing right by Fleming or doing right by the story and I don't think it's necessarily a case of one being right way and other being wrong, and we all draw that line in different ways, that's what's interesting. But with Young Bond and NTTD I still think keeps the spirit the Fleming if not the letter. Higson's also of an age when Bond was the ultimate male fantasy but to me a female Gen Z (just) fan, Bond having a family both found and biological really appeals to my sensibilities, whereas his favourite, YOLT with it's grand spectacle is not my cup of tea.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited June 2022 Posts: 16,383
    007HallY wrote: »
    True, and I will say as books that are meant to be marketed to and read by teenagers, Higson does a good job. Maybe I'm just pedantic!

    I will say that it does make me appreciate something like Skyfall more. The idea of Bond spending a chunk of his youth in this isolated, very large house makes perfect sense. It looks like a horrible place even in its prime for a child to live in. It makes sense in some odd way that such a boy, especially after the death of his parents, would grow up and work in a profession where he has to travel to different locations and engage in dangerous adventures.

    Yes I really like the concept of Skyfall lodge for Bond, even Fleming's Bond. It absolutely makes complete sense and I bet a few newer readers are even surprised to find it's not in the books.
    Well as Higson writes himself, 'I sometimes wonder what Ian Fleming would have made of my books. I don't imagine for one moment think this was the childhood he imagined for his hero. I expect he thought James would have had a pretty normal childhood before the war broke out. But you lot wouldn't have wanted to read about James doing his homework and playing football and getting a cold and being bored in lessons... No. What we want from James Bond is a world of hight adventure, so I hope Ian Fleming will forgive me and I do hope he would have liked my stories.'

    Excellent, thank you. I totally agree with that: it's not a biography of a real man but a series of adventure novels. But Higson does still examine elements of his past, fleshing the character out more, so I do disagree with his assessment of NTTD in one way. However I do also think that NTTD managed to be very un-Bondy in a lot of ways, and if Higson's novels and Skyfall showed us one thing, it's that you can expand Bond as a person and yet still keep that Bond movie/Fleming feel if you do it with enough skill, and it's here that I think NTTD dropped the ball.
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