NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • Posts: 1,078
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    And yes, I totally feel you there. It's a pretty shocking feeling when you've been a fan for so long and that happens (and you've clearly been enjoying them for longer than I have so I can't imagine what that experience must've been like for you after so many decades).

    The only other time I didn't come out buzzing was Goldeneye. I enjoyed it, but I was so on board with TD's Bond that I was almost watching it in a mild sulk, daft as it sounds. I wanted a third Dalton.
    I now see GE now as a fine Bond movie, and in a way, much much more of a crowd pleaser than LTK would ever be.
    Anyway, back on-topic. It's interesting to read SPECTRE was so well received here initially. I was here, but I can't remember the overall mood towards it. It's pretty hated now by all accounts, (I've always liked it if I'm honest).
    Be interesting where were are with NTTD a year or so down the pike.

  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,297
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I’ve just long been tired of fans being upset about what other fans are getting upset about. We’re not in each other‘s heads, but yet that seems to be the focus of everything here. “Why can’t you agree with me?” To me that’s not even interesting conversation, yet that’s all I see.

    I blame Mendes.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited July 2022 Posts: 7,547
    mtm wrote: »
    Nice to see you!

    You as well! Sorry I missed this. Have to take a mental break every once in awhile.

  • edited July 2022 Posts: 3,327
    The franchise has had a history of doing this. Every time it loses its way trying to be different, or appeal to a different set of fans, it usually corrects itself again (YOLT/OHMSS/DAF, MR/FYEO, AVTAK/TLD, DAD/CR).

    I know this is the usual line, but I think it's well overstated. The slightly-ridiculous DAF wasn't really "corrected" in LALD, and fans loathe Spectre, but NTTD served up another big helping of it. FYEO and CR were definitely reactionary, but even there, I don't think the claim that MR is so much sillier than TSWLM is a serious one. Budget issues and an intended change of actor were also in play there.

    The films I picked was where the direction changed, and then followed on in a similar vain with the next few movies. So yes, DAF set the tone for the 70's, and this ended with MR. I never mentioned TSWLM as a change in direction, or LALD. I just lump them into the 70's Bond era which started with DAF.

    Likewise, the Brosnan era was a style all by itself, which ended with DAD, and then we got a course correction again with CR.

    I'm guessing NTTD will be another milestone, where the next film gives us another change in tone.
  • Posts: 3,327
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @ColonelAdamski, yeah that "honeymoon phase" of a new film coming out has to be a tricky time to join, especially if you outright loathe an installment. You've stuck around since though and offered up some good discussion and debate so try not to take them to heart.

    That's nice of you to say.

    It's true what you say about a 'honeymoon phase'. Since seeing my first Bond films in the cinema in the 70's, NTTD is the only Bond film that I've not enjoyed on first viewing. I remember coming out of DAD buzzing. Seriously, I was well into PB's Bond back then and I thought it was quite the spectacle. One can get carried along with the excitement, they hype even, (I was on alt.fan;jamesbond usenet group then, and I remember it being very pro-DAD after the film came out).
    But NTTD is the only Bond film I can honestly say I didn't like on first viewing. I hoped it would improve on subsequent watches, but the opposite is true.

    Here is where we differ, because as I tried to sit through DAD at the cinema I was so close to walking out in disgust half way through. At least I made it through to the end with NTTD (twice)!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    @ColonelAdamski, yeah that "honeymoon phase" of a new film coming out has to be a tricky time to join, especially if you outright loathe an installment. You've stuck around since though and offered up some good discussion and debate so try not to take them to heart.

    That's nice of you to say.

    It's true what you say about a 'honeymoon phase'. Since seeing my first Bond films in the cinema in the 70's, NTTD is the only Bond film that I've not enjoyed on first viewing. I remember coming out of DAD buzzing. Seriously, I was well into PB's Bond back then and I thought it was quite the spectacle. One can get carried along with the excitement, they hype even, (I was on alt.fan;jamesbond usenet group then, and I remember it being very pro-DAD after the film came out).
    But NTTD is the only Bond film I can honestly say I didn't like on first viewing. I hoped it would improve on subsequent watches, but the opposite is true.

    Here is where we differ, because as I tried to sit through DAD at the cinema I was so close to walking out in disgust half way through. At least I made it through to the end with NTTD (twice)!

    I recall feeling cold shivers run down my spine in 2002. I had more or less "seduced" a friend of mine into seeing the film, even though she wasn't a Bond fan at all. The first hour went pretty well and I could tell that she was enjoying the film too. In fact, during the intermission, she said that she liked the somewhat "more dramatic" tone of the film. Then the ice palace happened. :-D We're still friends.

    NTTD is a much more tonally consistent film, IMO, despite the Paloma scenes flickering on like a light bulb amidst the emotional twilight of the rest of the film. Where DAD splits the cake in two halves--one vanilla, the other chocolate--NTTD is a better-mixed version, but still far from homogenous.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    The whole “DAD was well received on release” is a myth. It got a pretty comparable reactions to TND and TWINE in that it had a very mixed reaction. It’s rotten tomatoes score in 2002 was not all that different from what it is now (57% in Nov 2002, 56% today).

    I wasn’t on the original Keeping British End Up forum in 2002, but my understanding is fans ate up the hype at the time, and once it hit DVD months later that’s when its reputation took a freefall. But I vividly remember reactions from people in general being that it was too cheesy. In classrooms I remember students talking about how terrible the parasurfing scene was.

    It’s ironic that with DAD there actually was a concerted effort to capture the youth market by hiring Jerry Bruckheimer’s editor, hiring Rick Yune fresh out of THE FAST AND THE FURIOUS, the argument that CGI was the future of cinema and Tamahori wanted to embrace that.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    DAD is the only one I hated when I first saw it, though it's grown on me over the years. Really, as soon as I saw that bullet in the gunbarrel sequence, they lost me, and I'm not one of those people who gets very pedantic about the gunbarrels.
  • edited July 2022 Posts: 1,078
    I seem to remember one very prolific member of alt.fan.jamesbond proclaiming DAD "the best Bond ever", and a lot of of people saying "well, it's good, but I don't know if it's that good". Of course, it's been twenty years ago and I could well be miss-remembering.
    All I remember about 'proper' critics views was Johnathon Ross being quite complimentary on the telly, though he did say one particular sequence looked dodgy.
    I'd still rather watch DAD than some of the sillier Moore films if I'm honest.
    But going back to NTTD, I can see it's a much better crafted film than DAD. Crikey, they're poles apart. But I'd still take DAD over NTTD because it delivered more of what I want from a Bond movie. And it's not just because they killed everyone off in NTTD, there's other stuff. I didn't like the way they put a kid in danger, with Saffin stroking her in front of Bond, and taking her through the poison garden with her mother watching. Not that I'm queasy about films, it just seemed all too contrived. Let's make Bond suffer more than ever by having the villain threaten his cute daughter. Nah, that's not what I want. Give me a laser going up his jacksy, a cable car fight, an unexpected ski-jump even. It's okay having the odd film this time it's personal, LIKE OHMSS or LTK. But we've had a five film arc of let's make it even more personal next time.
    And if there's one consensus on here, it surely must be 'return to none-personal stand alone missions next time'. Even the NTTD lovers are saying that I think.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    I seem to remember one very prolific member of alt.fan.jamesbond proclaiming DAD "the best Bond ever", and a lot of of people saying "well, it's good, but I don't know if it's that good". Of course, it's been twenty years ago and I could well be miss-remembering.
    All I remember about 'proper' critics views was Johnathon Ross being quite complimentary on the telly, though he did say one particular sequence looked dodgy.
    I'd still rather watch DAD than some of the sillier Moore films if I'm honest.
    But going back to NTTD, I can see it's a much better crafted film than DAD. Crikey, they're poles apart. But I'd still take DAD over NTTD because it delivered more of what I want from a Bond movie. And it's not just because they killed everyone off in NTTD, there's other stuff. I didn't like the way they put a kid in danger, with Saffin stroking her in front of Bond, and taking her through the poison garden with her mother watching. Not that I'm queasy about films, it just seemed all too contrived. Let's make Bond suffer more than ever by having the villain threaten his cute daughter. Nah, that's not what I want. Give me a laser going up his jacksy, a cable car fight, an unexpected ski-jump even. It's okay having the odd film this time it's personal, LIKE OHMSS or LTK. But we've had a five film arc of let's make it even more personal next time.
    And if there's one consensus on here, it surely must be 'return to none-personal stand alone missions next time'. Even the NTTD lovers are saying that I think.

    I agree with this.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    I'm not sure if I prefer DAD to NTTD. I think I'd rather watch NTTD and turn off before the end to be honest. I think there's more to enjoy in NTTD (Matera, Jamaica, Paloma), than there is in DAD
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 4,247
    Yeah, there's no denying that DAD has issues. But the film's tone is fairly consistent, because it's a light film, so the darkness isn't much. Just imagine Brosnan's Bond dying in DAD after showing us an ice palace.
  • Posts: 2,161
    It's the same thing with DAD. I have a great time with the first half (if I can make it through the innuendo, the cliff dive and the Madonna cameo)
  • Posts: 7,419
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Yeah, there's no denying that DAD has issues. But the film's tone is fairly consistent, because it's a light film, so the darkness isn't much. Just imagine Brosnan's Bond dying in DAD after showing us an ice palace.

    Oh, I would have LOVED to see that!!l 😁
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited July 2022 Posts: 4,247
    Birdleson wrote: »
    It's the same thing with DAD. I have a great time with the first half (if I can make it through the innuendo, the cliff dive and the Madonna cameo)

    Yeah, I know what you mean.
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    Yeah, there's no denying that DAD has issues. But the film's tone is fairly consistent, because it's a light film, so the darkness isn't much. Just imagine Brosnan's Bond dying in DAD after showing us an ice palace.

    Oh, I would have LOVED to see that!!l 😁

    Lol. Maybe it would have worked in GE. Maybe him and Alec falling together, instead of just Alec. I still think LTK is the Bond film, Bond earned permission to die, even if I don't like the idea of Bond dying. But if it must happen, it should suit the film.

  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited July 2022 Posts: 3,789
    Me too, I think DAD gets so much hate these days.
    I rather watch DAD than NTTD, for enjoyment, more fun characters, not taking it seriously, bright lightning and palette, and Brosnan's performance, and Brosnan's physique still looked young in DAD compared to Craig in NTTD who looked like 60.

    Also I rather have Jinx than Madeleine, no drama, Jinx was a fun bond girl, her lines were left to be desired but at least, they didn't shoehorned her to be Bond's ultimate love, she smiles and quite entertaining, I don't know, everytime I think of Madeleine, it's just depressing.

    Also rather take Gustav Graves than both Safin and Blofeld, at least no personal, no mumbling of lines, not too complicated, and just like Goldfinger, entertaining.

    This has not to do with him dying, no problem with it, but for me that dying and having a kid was really unearned for me, not deserved.

    If I want drama or something serious, I would rather watch OHMSS, Skyfall, FYEO, TWINE, CR or LTK, because I think those films handled it well and earned.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited July 2022 Posts: 4,247
    I simply can't see the previous Bond directors adding so much comedy in a film that has Bond's death in it. Also the violence was only sprinkled here and there in Roger Moore's era, so it doesn't spoil the lighter direction and it's only fair to be careful with comedy, if it's a darker direction...especially one that involves major characters dying.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I simply can't see the previous Bond directors adding so much comedy in a film that has Bond's death in it. Also the violence was only sprinkled here and there in Roger Moore's era, so it doesn't spoil the lighter direction and it's only fair to be careful with comedy, if it's a darker direction...especially one that involves major characters dying.

    I think it's been a sticking point for the writers and creatives since Spectre.

    NTTD, should have been a return to that Casino/Quantum level of darkness. The quips and humour were so out of place, given they were telling the darkest story in the series.

    Bond's death felt tonally out of place with a lot of the film, which is a surprise given that the story was written backwards from Bond's demise
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited July 2022 Posts: 4,247
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    GadgetMan wrote: »
    I simply can't see the previous Bond directors adding so much comedy in a film that has Bond's death in it. Also the violence was only sprinkled here and there in Roger Moore's era, so it doesn't spoil the lighter direction and it's only fair to be careful with comedy, if it's a darker direction...especially one that involves major characters dying.

    I think it's been a sticking point for the writers and creatives since Spectre.

    NTTD, should have been a return to that Casino/Quantum level of darkness. The quips and humour were so out of place, given they were telling the darkest story in the series.

    Bond's death felt tonally out of place with a lot of the film, which is a surprise given that the story was written backwards from Bond's demise

    Yeah, the tonal issue is just a notch too much in NTTD, that it's palpable.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited July 2022 Posts: 3,152
    Agreed. NTTD's tonal shifts do pull me up sharply in places. Bond's just visited Vesper's grave and put Madeleine on the train, there's a moody title song...and then we're immediately into comedy accents and soup gags? Huh? What?! Shame - I'd've preferred it if they'd sustained the Matera approach, tbh.
  • GadgetManGadgetMan Lagos, Nigeria
    edited July 2022 Posts: 4,247
    Sure, I can't be 100% certain, but there's a high possibility that if Fukunaga directed TLD, he might have left the magic carpet scene that Glen intelligently felt was out of place for Dalton's very serious portrayal of 007.
  • edited July 2022 Posts: 1,078
    Possibly. The 'salt corrosion' scene was pushing it a little for that film, but I did love the line.
    One thing about DAD... I always felt a little sorry that it's often regarded as the 'worst Bond film', as it tries so hard to be everything. It's not a film that's lazy or feels like they're going through the motions. It quite earnest in its approach of a 40 year celebration of Bond. If it was a school essay it'd get C- for content, but an A for trying. It never feels stale.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited July 2022 Posts: 24,179
    MI6HQ wrote: »
    Me too, I think DAD gets so much hate these days.
    I rather watch DAD than NTTD, for enjoyment, more fun characters, not taking it seriously, bright lightning and palette, and Brosnan's performance, and Brosnan's physique still looked young in DAD compared to Craig in NTTD who looked like 60.

    Also I rather have Jinx than Madeleine, no drama, Jinx was a fun bond girl, her lines were left to be desired but at least, they didn't shoehorned her to be Bond's ultimate love, she smiles and quite entertaining, I don't know, everytime I think of Madeleine, it's just depressing.

    Also rather take Gustav Graves than both Safin and Blofeld, at least no personal, no mumbling of lines, not too complicated, and just like Goldfinger, entertaining.

    This has not to do with him dying, no problem with it, but for me that dying and having a kid was really unearned for me, not deserved.

    If I want drama or something serious, I would rather watch OHMSS, Skyfall, FYEO, TWINE, CR or LTK, because I think those films handled it well and earned.
    The one I disagree with in that list is TWINE. That film failed big time in the drama department, at least in my opinion. Nothing about it strikes me as convincing and I just cannot take any of it seriously. They had a very bad plot and decided to build some dramatic layers around that, what with the Stockholm syndrome, the family plot and auntie M being suckered in as well, all the while keeping Denise as a nuclear physicist running around in a tank top while Zukovski nearly drowns in his own caviar. The "drama" in TWINE is on the same level of a cheap airport novel, scribbled together from a few pop psychology articles. I can't watch TWINE for its drama, but I certainly find it entertaining as an unintentional comedy show.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Yeah I'm not sure how "seriously" I take TWINE but I loved it as a kid, sort of lost that love as I grew up, yet now I've really, really, really enjoyed it again in the last few years. I rank it pretty highly now.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    TWINE is even worse because it’s trying to both be OHMSS and a Roger Moore style film at the same time. It doesn’t help that it pulls its punches. One moment we’re being introduced to a goofy successor for Q, the next Bond is tenderly touching Elektra’s face on a monitor with great empathy over her hardship.

    It’s really too bad, because I can see the potential in that film serving as a spiritual sequel to OHMSS. But in the end it opts to make a joke out of Christmas coming once a year.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    TWINE is even worse because it’s trying to both be OHMSS and a Roger Moore style film at the same time. It doesn’t help that it pulls its punches. One moment we’re being introduced to a goofy successor for Q, the next Bond is tenderly touching Elektra’s face on a monitor with great empathy over her hardship.

    It’s really too bad, because I can see the potential in that film serving as a spiritual sequel to OHMSS. But in the end it opts to make a joke out of Christmas coming once a year.

    There's a good script in there but it should've been polished by someone brought in later with a fresh perspective and better dramatic skills. They started production with a leaking roof, so to speak. @MakeshiftPython, you said it well. One second we're supposed to crack up, the next we're supposed to well up. I find the film much more tonally confusing than NTTD.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    TWINE is even worse because it’s trying to both be OHMSS and a Roger Moore style film at the same time. It doesn’t help that it pulls its punches. One moment we’re being introduced to a goofy successor for Q, the next Bond is tenderly touching Elektra’s face on a monitor with great empathy over her hardship.

    It’s really too bad, because I can see the potential in that film serving as a spiritual sequel to OHMSS. But in the end it opts to make a joke out of Christmas coming once a year.

    There's a good script in there but it should've been polished by someone brought in later with a fresh perspective and better dramatic skills. They started production with a leaking roof, so to speak. @MakeshiftPython, you said it well. One second we're supposed to crack up, the next we're supposed to well up. I find the film much more tonally confusing than NTTD.

    With far inferior performances (save for Marceau and Dench), imo…
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    peter wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    TWINE is even worse because it’s trying to both be OHMSS and a Roger Moore style film at the same time. It doesn’t help that it pulls its punches. One moment we’re being introduced to a goofy successor for Q, the next Bond is tenderly touching Elektra’s face on a monitor with great empathy over her hardship.

    It’s really too bad, because I can see the potential in that film serving as a spiritual sequel to OHMSS. But in the end it opts to make a joke out of Christmas coming once a year.

    There's a good script in there but it should've been polished by someone brought in later with a fresh perspective and better dramatic skills. They started production with a leaking roof, so to speak. @MakeshiftPython, you said it well. One second we're supposed to crack up, the next we're supposed to well up. I find the film much more tonally confusing than NTTD.

    With far inferior performances (save for Marceau and Dench), imo…
    I have to think about that. I rather like the cast of TWINE. Of course, Denise is no Léa.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited July 2022 Posts: 8,183
    Aside from Dench, I thought everyone was pretty bad. I put that all on the director.

    And I’m not even that harsh on Denise Richards because her character is extremely thin and only serves to spout exposition on nuclear physics and give Bond a woman to bed at the end for the sake of formula. Even Eva Green couldn’t have made it all that much better.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,179
    Aside from Dench, I thought everyone was pretty bad. I put that all on the director.

    And I’m not even that harsh on Denise Richards because her character is extremely thin and only serves to spout exposition on nuclear physics and give Bond a woman to bed at the end for the sake of formula. Even Eva Green couldn’t have made it all that much better.

    I find Dr Warmflash rather pleasant. 😉
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