NO TIME TO DIE (2021) - First Reactions vs. Current Reactions

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  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    Well...it's been a little over two years now, and I still like NTTD a lot. I appreciated Bond's fate (though not entirely thrilled with the execution), and for some reason, it spoke to me. I don't know why I felt this way when so many critics and Bond fans here and everywhere so despised the ending. What was I seeing--or missing?

    My answers were not found in repeated viewings.

    My answers, it seems, may lie in the films I watched a lot in my teen years. I am a sucker for 1970s cinema: not just the blockbusters, but the smaller, more delicate films. When I was 16, we got our first VCR (around 1984). That's when I started watching or re-watching these masterpieces:

    The Conversation (Coppola)
    Invasion of the Body Snatchers (Kaufman)
    The Parallax View (Pakula)
    The Stepford Wives (Forbes)
    Shampoo (Ashby)
    Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (Hill)...OK, this was 1969
    Network (Lumet)
    Looking for Mr Goodbar (Brooks)

    I watched some of these again over the summer. And then, for the first time in years, I watched The Parallax View....and it hit me.

    The cold, pessimistic cinema of the 70s was something I was drawn to. I didn't always need (or like) happy endings. There was something gritty and intoxicating about these films.

    No doubt, all of this came back to me with NTTD. I would not consider it a pessimistic film, but my acceptance and appreciation of Bond's demise is rooted in the ending of, say, The Parallax View. Perhaps even more so: The Stepford Wives and Network.

    I'm seeing a connection.

    In any case, I still think NTTD will be considered a masterpiece in 15-20 years from now. Time will change people's perspective, much in the way OHMSS has been re-evaluated.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I loved the film when I left the cinema, I love it more now.

    Simple as that.
  • Posts: 7,434
    TripAces wrote: »
    Well...it's been a little over two years now, and I still like NTTD a lot. I appreciated Bond's fate (though not entirely thrilled with the execution), and for some reason, it spoke to me. I don't know why I felt this way when so many critics and Bond fans here and everywhere so despised the ending. What was I seeing--or missing?

    My answers were not found in repeated viewings.

    My answers, it seems, may lie in the films I watched a lot in my teen years. I am a sucker for 1970s cinema: not just the blockbusters, but the smaller, more delicate films. When I was 16, we got our first VCR (around 1984). That's when I started watching or re-watching these masterpieces:

    The Conversation (Coppola)
    Invasion of the Body Snatchers (Kaufman)
    The Parallax View (Pakula)
    The Stepford Wives (Forbes)
    Shampoo (Ashby)
    Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (Hill)...OK, this was 1969
    Network (Lumet)
    Looking for Mr Goodbar (Brooks)

    I watched some of these again over the summer. And then, for the first time in years, I watched The Parallax View....and it hit me.

    The cold, pessimistic cinema of the 70s was something I was drawn to. I didn't always need (or like) happy endings. There was something gritty and intoxicating about these films.

    No doubt, all of this came back to me with NTTD. I would not consider it a pessimistic film, but my acceptance and appreciation of Bond's demise is rooted in the ending of, say, The Parallax View. Perhaps even more so: The Stepford Wives and Network.

    I'm seeing a connection.

    In any case, I still think NTTD will be considered a masterpiece in 15-20 years from now. Time will change people's perspective, much in the way OHMSS has been re-evaluated.

    Thats a great selection of movies @TripAces. I'm a child of the 70's too, too young to see them in the cinema, late 60's and 70's movies are my go to favourites and feature widely in my collection!
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    TripAces wrote: »
    Well...it's been a little over two years now, and I still like NTTD a lot. I appreciated Bond's fate (though not entirely thrilled with the execution), and for some reason, it spoke to me. I don't know why I felt this way when so many critics and Bond fans here and everywhere so despised the ending. What was I seeing--or missing?

    My answers were not found in repeated viewings.

    My answers, it seems, may lie in the films I watched a lot in my teen years. I am a sucker for 1970s cinema: not just the blockbusters, but the smaller, more delicate films. When I was 16, we got our first VCR (around 1984). That's when I started watching or re-watching these masterpieces:

    The Conversation (Coppola)
    Invasion of the Body Snatchers (Kaufman)
    The Parallax View (Pakula)
    The Stepford Wives (Forbes)
    Shampoo (Ashby)
    Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (Hill)...OK, this was 1969
    Network (Lumet)
    Looking for Mr Goodbar (Brooks)

    I watched some of these again over the summer. And then, for the first time in years, I watched The Parallax View....and it hit me.

    The cold, pessimistic cinema of the 70s was something I was drawn to. I didn't always need (or like) happy endings. There was something gritty and intoxicating about these films.

    No doubt, all of this came back to me with NTTD. I would not consider it a pessimistic film, but my acceptance and appreciation of Bond's demise is rooted in the ending of, say, The Parallax View. Perhaps even more so: The Stepford Wives and Network.

    I'm seeing a connection.

    In any case, I still think NTTD will be considered a masterpiece in 15-20 years from now. Time will change people's perspective, much in the way OHMSS has been re-evaluated.

    Great analysis, @TripAces. And @peter, I also share your feelings about NTTD. I already watched it at least twice as often as the likes of QOS and SP. For me it's up there with CR'06 and SF, among the upper echelon of Bond movies.
  • Good in parts but overall it sags and is a bit dull.
  • Posts: 3,327
    TripAces wrote: »
    Well...it's been a little over two years now, and I still like NTTD a lot. I appreciated Bond's fate (though not entirely thrilled with the execution), and for some reason, it spoke to me. I don't know why I felt this way when so many critics and Bond fans here and everywhere so despised the ending. What was I seeing--or missing?

    My answers were not found in repeated viewings.

    My answers, it seems, may lie in the films I watched a lot in my teen years. I am a sucker for 1970s cinema: not just the blockbusters, but the smaller, more delicate films. When I was 16, we got our first VCR (around 1984). That's when I started watching or re-watching these masterpieces:

    The Conversation (Coppola)
    Invasion of the Body Snatchers (Kaufman)
    The Parallax View (Pakula)
    The Stepford Wives (Forbes)
    Shampoo (Ashby)
    Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (Hill)...OK, this was 1969
    Network (Lumet)
    Looking for Mr Goodbar (Brooks)

    I watched some of these again over the summer. And then, for the first time in years, I watched The Parallax View....and it hit me.

    The cold, pessimistic cinema of the 70s was something I was drawn to. I didn't always need (or like) happy endings. There was something gritty and intoxicating about these films.

    No doubt, all of this came back to me with NTTD. I would not consider it a pessimistic film, but my acceptance and appreciation of Bond's demise is rooted in the ending of, say, The Parallax View. Perhaps even more so: The Stepford Wives and Network.

    I'm seeing a connection.

    In any case, I still think NTTD will be considered a masterpiece in 15-20 years from now. Time will change people's perspective, much in the way OHMSS has been re-evaluated.

    Nice list. Another one I would add to that is 3 Days of the Condor, spy thriller which also has a 70's downbeat ending.

    Great movies there you listed...with the exception of one stinker which is NTTD. I hated it on first viewing, and despise it to my very core now. It's easily the worst film in the entire franchise, a status which I thought would belong to DAD forever, but EON proved me wrong. They could stoop even lower.
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 4,166
    This might sound odd, but for me NTTD and MR are very similar films in spirit. I personally see them as ‘anything goes’ Bond films, often drifting into science fiction/futuristic territory. Both build up to these horrifying, almost apocalyptic premises for their final acts. While MR is more lighthearted and NTTD more fatalistic, both actually contain some of the darkest scenes in the series alongside some of the lightest (ie. NTTD has the Cuba sequence, and even MR has some pretty horrific moments such as Drax’s assistant getting mauled by dogs). Both contain some pretty subversive ideas in the context of the Bond formula - from a henchman falling in love and turning at the last minute to help Bond, to our hero outright dying.

    For me, neither films are not my go to Bond movies. In fact I find both strange and often frustrating as much as I enjoy them. But they are unique, and despite my issues with them if I’m in the mood for something different I’ll revisit either film.
  • I love 70s films too (though I personally find Parallax View overrated) - Black Sunday and Capricorn One being the 2 most underrated 70s suspense thrillers!

    But I fail to see what any of that has to do with NTTD. It’s an unwritten rule that you don’t kill James Bond. Cubby had a strict guideline that he followed when making these films and never in a million years would he have been okay with killing 007. The very notion of “James Bond will return” at the end of every film cements that. It doesn’t mean a different parallel universe 007 will return. It means the same 007 that you first saw in DN will return. 007 never dies. It may be a different actor in the role but the same 007 character. So having downbeat endings in 70s films where the hero dies is totally irrelevant to the Bond series and should not be viewed as some sort of guideline for Bond films to follow. Pointing out a great film where such and such happened doesn’t mean if the same happens in a Bond film then it’s a good thing. Donner’s Superman is another 70s classic. Should we have Bond fly faster than a speeding bullet? Just because Superman did?

    Bond needs to always maintain its identity. There are core elements it should always adhere to. The star of the picture should not make demands that go counter to the what the character is about. And the producers should be strong enough not to give into such ridiculous demands. Basically Craig said “kill Bond or I’m not doing the film” and the producers caved in. Pathetic.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited October 2023 Posts: 3,789
    Again, for me, I have no against Bond dying or any choices they've made, it's more about on execution and the way it's written.

    It could've been so much better, it's a missed opportunity for me, they took a risk but they've dropped the ball and popped the bubble, it's messy upon the execution.

    I would understand it more if it's adapted from the book, since it's really the way it's written, but since it's their original idea written into the script, I think they should've done it better.

    My expectations on this film was really high before it came out, but I'm disappointed when I've watched it.
  • Bond’s death and kid are major issues but I agree that even beyond that it’s a shoddy story. Safin’s plan (was there one?) is one of the worst and most vague in the entire series and Safin himself is one of the most boring and undercooked villains in the series.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    Posts: 2,051
    Another annoying thing with this particular Bond film is, the trailers suggested something really cerebral with the look of an intense thriller. But there's nothing really going on when one watches the film. Nothing mind-blowing or inventive happens in the film, except the Matera sequence. I personally think it's the worst Bond film and Craig's Bond worst. Maybe if they didn't have Bond's death in mind from the beginning, I think they would have paid ample attention to the script.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    Worst film in the series. As if Brofeld wasn't bad enough, the one thing that has been consistent since FRWL is that Blofeld is THE big bad, the ultimate mastermind pulling the strings and the fact that he could have the wool pulled over his eyes by another villain so easily is just one of the sins this film commits. I would never say that bond can't die onscreen, but in order for it to work at all it should feel inevitable, as if any other ending would be a cop out. I don't get that impression with the way Bond 25 ends (maybe because we don't actually see him spend time with his new found family besides peel some fruit), it feels like this is the kind of race against time that he's faced 24 times before and navigated with ease. This is the longest bond film by far and yet it has maybe the fewest memorable scenes of any film in the series. At least DAD has a bunch of iconic imagery of its own, and that great sword fight in the middle. Bond 25 has a cool fight scene with paloma, but realistically she should have been the one Bond was sparring with the entire movie, that would've given it some life.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    Enduring kidney stones was less painful than watching this movie.
  • edited October 2023 Posts: 1,368
    Bond’s death and kid are major issues but I agree that even beyond that it’s a shoddy story. Safin’s plan (was there one?) is one of the worst and most vague in the entire series and Safin himself is one of the most boring and undercooked villains in the series.

    And the movie is long enough. I mean...They knew Safin was uninteresting.

  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    I wish they'd stopped taking these big creative swings after skyfall ended with him getting his next mission. It would have made the latter half of Craigs tenure so much more watchable, and we would've actually got to see him give a more traditional portrayal like in those omaze adverts. Instead general movie goers were left feeling confused by Brofeldgate and outright betrayed by Bond 25s ending.
  • TripAcesTripAces Universal Exports
    Posts: 4,585
    FWIW, I am not necessarily defending the ending or trying to change anyone's mind. One person's junk food is another's nutrition. This is especially the case with Bond films and this community, which makes it fun. If everyone responded the same way to every film, this place would be boring as hell.

    I simply did a little introspection and wondered how much of my attraction to the end was rooted in 70's film cynicism. I'm thinking it is. And yes, @jetsetwilly , Three Days of the Condor is another excellent example. Love that film.

  • I loved NTTD when it came out. Now..... I absolutely still love it. Classic Bond imo. My favourite Bond actor.
  • Posts: 12,474
    It's been too long since I've seen it, but I'd say pretty close to the same, maybe just a little less than when it was new. I feel comfortable with it in my #14 spot right now, which is funny because it seems like most either love or hate it, with either super high or super low rankings, but I consider it perfectly in the middle. It does most things right (middle Bond films are still awesome!), but I think there are still lots of better Bond movies.
  • Posts: 7,434
    Nah, DAD is still hands down the worst Bond movie imo!
  • NTTD still blows SP out of the water, a much better film overall. I do prefer the ending of Spectre and the pre-credits scene in Mexico.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,807
    Loved it.

    Love it.

  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited October 2023 Posts: 2,051
    SP just needed the Matera sequence to be much better. But still, after revisiting the films, I now prefer SP to NTTD....honestly. SP also feels more Bond.

    Craig and Zimmer are the best things about NTTD.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    SP just needed the Matera sequence to be much better. But still, after revisiting the films, I now prefer SP to NTTD....honestly. SP also feels more Bond.

    Craig and Zimmer are the best things about NTTD.

    SP has always felt more Bond to me than SF and NTTD, but I think NTTD is the better film (and this comes from a huge fan of SP.)
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,421
    Yes, that's where I am too: Spectre really nails the feel and atmosphere of a Bond film where NTTD just fails to once you're past the titles; but NTTD hangs together as a movie much better.
    So as a Bond fan I tend to prefer Spectre, but as a movie watcher I'll take NTTD.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited October 2023 Posts: 3,152
    Basically Craig said “kill Bond or I’m not doing the film” and the producers caved in. Pathetic.
    Although Craig said that BB wouldn't let it drop and kept coming back to him with ideas for another film. What if BB said 'if we kill Bond will you do the film?' According to that Variety interview, she'd said yes back in 2006 when Dan had asked her if they could kill off Bond in his final film - it was MGW who vetoed it at that time. For all we know, BB remembered all of that and used it as the lure to get Dan to do a final film.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes, that's where I am too: Spectre really nails the feel and atmosphere of a Bond film where NTTD just fails to once you're past the titles; but NTTD hangs together as a movie much better.
    So as a Bond fan I tend to prefer Spectre, but as a movie watcher I'll take NTTD.

    This is a very interesting discussion, I find. Some films are better 'Bond' films than they are films in general if that makes sense.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,421
    Yes, QoS and LTK are two that are lacking in that Bond feel for me. Perhaps FYEO slightly too, although less so.
  • NTTD has, and still sits firmly in the middle of my rankings. Above the likes of QOS and SP, but below CR and SF. As a movie I think it’s firmly solid, and I appreciated the return of having a megalomaniac trying to destroy the world; it was long overdue for the Craig era imo. Craig’s performance doesn’t suit my taste, and to be honest I think that PTS makes him appear to be a bit of an idiot by immediately believing everything that Blofeld says about Madeline despite everything that happened in SP. I liked a lot of the stuff in Cuba and Jamaica, and I thought the cast was great. I’m not too big on the ending because I didn’t feel any emotional reaction to that scene, if anything I was kind of perplexed.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes, QoS and LTK are two that are lacking in that Bond feel for me. Perhaps FYEO slightly too, although less so.

    My choice would be SF. I know that many will find that strange. It's a very well-made film, no doubt about that. But it ranks colder on my Bond thermometer than the other Craigs.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,421
    That is surprising: that feels fully Bond to me.
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