could skyfall turn out as another DAD

2

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  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited December 2011 Posts: 4,399
    Zekidk wrote:
    Yes, but if Foster had worked with another editor than Richard Pearson - the editor behind the Bourne 3 mess - we would have ended up with an entirely different result!





    no... chances are it would've looked 99.9% the same...

    the director tells the editor, this is what i want - make it look that way...

    the editor (to break it down in simple terms) is pretty much a puppet, and the director pulls the strings.... if the editor didn't meet the director's expectations or vision, they would've been sacked and a new editor brought it..... which is why, often times, you'll see multiple editors on a film..... the editor can offer suggestions and opinions, but it's ultimately the director's decision - no creative input goes into the film without the director's approval.... Forster had a set vision for the film from the very beginning - so it's unlikely very much would've changed in post.
  • Posts: 3,278
    So what you are basically saying is that QoS would have looked the same, if they would have hired another editor?

    Although I didn't mention it in my first comment, I do hold Foster responsible!
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Zekidk wrote:
    So what you are basically saying is that QoS would have looked the same, if they would have hired another editor?

    Although I didn't mention it in my first comment, I do hold Foster responsible!

    yes...

    I just recently shot my own short film, do you think I am going to let someone else edit it together without any of my input?? Hell no!..... the only, absolutely only way the director would have no say so in the edit, is if he/she was removed from the project during post, and the final edit was put together by the producers and the editor... either way - the editor works to the vision and specifications of someone else, not their own.

  • Posts: 3,278
    haserot... I mean no disrespect, but I do think that there's a huge difference between the proces in making a milliondollar blockbustermovie involving hundreds of people, and making a personal short film.

    In my mind there's no doubt that they hired Pearson because of his "skills" in editing Bourne 2 and 3. That kind of editing - which I really do not like - has almost become his trademark! Hence my comment!
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    Posts: 4,399
    Zekidk wrote:
    haserot... I mean no disrespect, but I do think that there's a huge difference between the proces in making a milliondollar blockbustermovie involving hundreds of people, and making a personal short film.

    In my mind there's no doubt that they hired Pearson because of his "skills" in editing Bourne 2 and 3. That kind of editing - which I really do not like - has almost become his trademark! Hence my comment!

    at the end of the day Zekidk.... it still boils down to 2 men sitting in room, editing the film together.... the editor, and the director..

    yes, my no budget 3 day short is eons different than a 90 day 200 million dollar production...... but it still gets cut together the same exact way, using the same exact techniques...

    trust me when i say, there isn't a shot/scene/piece of music - ANYTHING, that goes into the film during post without the director's input first, at all.... often times, certain studios want the film to only be a certain length, which force directors to have to make tough decisions about scenes they want to cut out.. do you think the editor just does that on his own?.. no - it's the directors call.... all the editor does, is what the director tells him to do.... very much in the way the head cameraman, DP, or cinematographer does while shooting the film - the director tells him what he wants to see, and it's the DP's job to make it happen, thats it.

  • Posts: 3,278
    So... you really don't need editors in movies? Just make sure that the director knows how to handle the equipment?

    Here's how I think it went down: Someone - maybe the producers, maybe Foster - wanted QoS to look like the latest Bourne-movie. Enter Richard Pearson who certainly helped all he could. At the end of the day that decision was a big mistake, IMO!
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited December 2011 Posts: 4,399
    if he knows the software and/equipment used to splice reels together, yes he could very well edit his own film.... but often times they don't, because more often than not, the director isn't skilled or trained enough in the art - they may know the basics... but why doddle with it yourself, when you can bring someone onboard (a professional) who knows what they are doing with the equipment and software....... thats why people specialize in that sort of thing... same with DPs and cinematographer - what would be the use if the director can do it all himself....... it boils down to time..... if 1 person wanted to shoot/light/rig/direct the whole thing himself.. do you have any idea how long that takes?.. its long enough when you have the appropriate amount of people, much less 1 person... then you gotta worry about sound - thats whole other department that works with the crew to make sure sound is being captured correctly - so then you got all their wires and equipment you gotta deal with.... sure 1 person could do it all..... but why? and doesn't mean the film would look any good - to achieve the look of professional filmmaking, it's damn near impossible for 1 person to do it all themselves...... it's much quicker and easier with more people, especially ones who know what they are doing...

    same goes for editing... sure the director could do it himself, but why?.. hire someone who knows what they are doing, and knows their way around the equipment so they can make the director's work easier.

    now there were two editors on QOS.. and who knows... i gave 1 scenario as to why there might be 2 editors on a film during post.... but often times, you can have an editor who's only job is make a rough cut of the film - which means, they remove the slate markers from scenes, and arrange the clips on a timeline, in the order that the script calls for... then someone else can be brought in to go into those further (with the director) and make the necessary cuts.... so who knows why they were brought on... your guess is as good as mine.... but typically, like DPs, directors tend to stick with people they've worked with before..


    this is the reason why i get annoyed by people who accuse David Arnold of trying to squeeze every frame of film with music - THATS NOT HIS CALL... it's not like once the film is done editing, they just hand it to him to place music wherever he pleases... no - that again is a procress that the directors are involved in as well... they may not be present during all the writing - but if they want a scene with or without music, again, thats the director's call - not the editor's - not the composer...
  • Posts: 3,278
    HASEROT wrote:
    the director isn't skilled or trained enough in the art

    And I think that pretty much sums up what I am trying to say. And I know about filmmaking, as well. Think this sums it up rather nicely:

    "However, the job of an editor isn’t simply to mechanically put pieces of a film together, cut off film slates, or edit dialogue scenes. A film editor must creatively work with the layers of images, story, dialogue, music, pacing, as well as the actors' performances to effectively "re-imagine" and even rewrite the film to craft a cohesive whole. Editors usually play a dynamic role in the making of a film."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_editing
  • HASEROTHASEROT has returned like the tedious inevitability of an unloved season---
    edited December 2011 Posts: 4,399
    Zekidk wrote:
    HASEROT wrote:
    the director isn't skilled or trained enough in the art

    And I think that pretty much sums up what I am trying to say. And I know about filmmaking, as well. Think this sums it up rather nicely:

    "However, the job of an editor isn’t simply to mechanically put pieces of a film together, cut off film slates, or edit dialogue scenes. A film editor must creatively work with the layers of images, story, dialogue, music, pacing, as well as the actors' performances to effectively "re-imagine" and even rewrite the film to craft a cohesive whole. Editors usually play a dynamic role in the making of a film."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_editing

    you can add on - " to the director's specifications." to that as well....... all that is true - but that gives the false impression that once shooting is over, the director bids everyone a farewell, and it off to the next project.... NOT.. AT.. ALL... his job is only half over..

    remember, while all that you quoted is true..... at the end of the day - it's what the director wants, so even if the editor cut something together, but the director doesn't like it - then you're SOL... and if you want to argue about it...... then there's the door, see yourself out..... now, as an editor you're out of a job.....

    i also dabble in graphic work too, and while i can come up with frilly explanations as to what my job is.... in the end, if i am working for a client, who wants a stupid cartoon unicorn jumping over a rainbow, then thats what i am being paid to do.... i could offer suggestions, or ideas for something a little different, but if they want that damned unicorn, then they'll get it, or else i'm out of a paycheck........ understand?
  • Posts: 3,278
    HASEROT wrote:
    Zekidk wrote:
    HASEROT wrote:
    the director isn't skilled or trained enough in the art

    And I think that pretty much sums up what I am trying to say. And I know about filmmaking, as well. Think this sums it up rather nicely:

    "However, the job of an editor isn’t simply to mechanically put pieces of a film together, cut off film slates, or edit dialogue scenes. A film editor must creatively work with the layers of images, story, dialogue, music, pacing, as well as the actors' performances to effectively "re-imagine" and even rewrite the film to craft a cohesive whole. Editors usually play a dynamic role in the making of a film."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_editing

    you can add on - " to the director's specifications." to that as well....... all that is true - but that gives the false impression that once shooting is over, the director bids everyone a farewell, and it off to the next project.... NOT.. AT.. ALL... his job is only half over..

    No one is arguing that "once shooting is over, the director bids everyone a farewell" at all. Of course the director is responsible for molding the editors cut.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 6,710
    I was just thinking back to around ten years ago. It was a happier time, justin bieber hadn't been heard of, katie price and kerry katona weren't all over the TV, 007 nightfire (AKA the best game of all time) was released, and DAD was close to coming out at the cinema.

    This is where the thread comes from really. I remember ten years ago all the bond fans were all worked up and excited, alot of people thought since it was the anniversary and it has been 3 years since the last one, that EON would've put a ton of work in and DAD would be the best film ever. Then the film came out and it was a massive let down (QOS was also a let down but not as bad as this), and a crap final film for one of the best bonds of all time (brosnan deserved better, I would've rather he ended on TWINE, that was great so he would have gone out on a high imo).

    Fast forward to 2011. And everybody is expecting skyfall to be awesome, just like they were with DAD. Now I will admit that skyfall has a better cast and director, and will definetly be alot more realistic then DAD, and its looking alot better than DAD, but this year, im not gonna get my hopes up, just in case.

    If Skyfall is anything like DAD I´ll eat my hat. After I get a hat.

    But I do agree with everything that you say here.
  • Posts: 5,745
    If it is anything like QoS, or better yet Casino Royale, I'll be more that ecstatic.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,680
    If it's anything like QoS- with the addition of Ralph Fiennes and Q, I'll be satisfied.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,256
    Gentlemen, let's keep these speculation threads to a minimum. These presumptuous 'could-be' discussions usually don’t lead us very far. But I’ll happily drop my two cents. :) What I want this film to be is Craig’s TB – preferably no DAD. While the former is nearly perfect, the latter is flawed in many respects, IMHO. I’m hoping for a superb number 23. Superb and DAD cannot be used in the same sentence.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited December 2011 Posts: 14,680
    Skyfall will be gold. And after it's release, I would like to see Mendes and Martin Campbell direct more Bond films.
  • Posts: 1,894
    I suppose SKYFALL could turn out to be another DIE ANOTHER DAY.

    But at the same time, it could turn out to be another FROM RUSSIA WITH LOVE.

    "Everybody expecting SKYFALL to be awesome" is not evidence that it will be an abject failure. Everybody expected CASINO ROYALE to be awesome, too (especially after production reports began to filter down) ... and it was. I think you're being alarmist for the sake of being alarmist.
  • 002002
    edited December 2011 Posts: 581
    Qantum of Solace was in fact the worst james bond film of all time (if we can call it a james bond film)...bad storyline and script, no gadgets, excruciatingly bad editing, bland charaters with a villian which is perhaps more terrifing than a basket of sleeping kittens- he is so bad that if i was on set i would suckerpunch the actor and screenwriter...

    Die Another Day, Moonraker and Diamonds are forever may be considered the worst of the bond series but they are all good in there own ways and lets face it they are more bond than QOS

    the good thing is that Skyfall will probarly wont be as horrible as QOS
  • Posts: 4,619
    002 wrote:
    Qantum of Solace was in fact the worst james bond film of all time

    That's your opinion. It's not a fact.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    I must confess DAD does have a "so bad its actually quite good" quality. Kind of like a cheesey panto or sci fi film. If I could do with a laugh I'll stick in DAD. Quantum doesn't make me laugh.

    OMG, it's Jinx, she's...she's hideous ;)



    Here's a funny DAD fan review I found.

  • Posts: 12,526
    i have to say that i cannot see them repeating another DAD! We do not need reminders and nods to past Bond movies! I do not see that happening with SF. All i see is a quality Spy movie for the modern day with hopefully all the familiar charactors we all love. As long as the story matches up to the action? i think we will hopefully be in for areal treat! Its the 50th Anniversary so it needs to be special as they wont get the chance again which also why we have such a quality cast list! Lets leave the winks and nods to Austin Powers as they are gonna make another one! The recent remake of "Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy" prooves the appetite is out there for a good espionage movie! And "Nobody Does It Better" than "James Bond" ;-)
  • Posts: 6,710
    I hate DUD, with a vengeance.
  • I don't mean will skyfall be another DAD in the sense that it will be the worst in the series, I'm mean in the sense that everybody gets thier hopes up then it turns out no where near as good as they thought.

    I'm just not getting my hopes up too high. If it turns out as the greatest bond film ever, fantastic. If not, I won't have got my hopes up too high.Thta the way I see it.

    @shadowonthesun Alot of fans were expecting CR to be terrible just because of craig, I wasn't one of them, but thier were people threatening to boycott the film, so not everybody was expecting that to turn out great.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited December 2011 Posts: 14,680
    Personally, I wasn't disappointed with DAD when I first saw it in the cinema, but then again I didn't analyze films (and know as much about Bond) as I do now. I didn't put much thought into it being the 40th anniversary, and how good DAD should be based on that. So, I can't really compare the vibe of the 40th anniversary to that of the 50th. Hope-wise, Skyfall won't be as bad as QoS (for me, anyway). Walking out of the cinema, I was disappointed with QoS, and I thought "Is that it?"- but I couldn't put my finger on whether it was disappointment due to the short time length, or the lack of Bondian elements. Well, now I guess it was both. SF is shaping up to have more Bondian elements than QoS, and with ample time to write the script, I'm guessing it'll be 2+ hours. Sounds good so far.
  • Posts: 12,526
    agreed that QOS was far too short for my liking too. im hoping for closer to 2hrs 30mins especially with this cast line up! Make the most of all of them while we can!
  • Posts: 297
    Maybe QOS's problem was that it tried too hard to be the anti-CR where everybody expected CRII. DAD's problem was that it carried too much of the franchise's history and too little of its own good ideas. Sincerely hope that will be avoided with SKYFALL.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,256
    RogueAgent wrote:
    agreed that QOS was far too short for my liking too. im hoping for closer to 2hrs 30mins especially with this cast line up! Make the most of all of them while we can!

    Fully agreed. A decent playing time is important to me. QOS felt wrong as a short Bond, the shortest ever, like an extended episode from some non-existing Bond TV series. I want scope, a fully loaded and intricate script and a feature length of at least 2hrs 10mins.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited December 2011 Posts: 14,680
    Kennon wrote:
    Maybe QOS's problem was that it tried too hard to be the anti-CR where everybody expected CRII. DAD's problem was that it carried too much of the franchise's history and too little of its own good ideas. Sincerely hope that will be avoided with SKYFALL.

    Interesting how you mention QoS as the anti-CR. I've quite often thought of QoS as the negative film to the high quality photo that is CR.

    Mendes and Craig wanting to make the best film they can (as opposed to homage, tribute, homage) is a mature approach, and Fleming would respect that. I'm confident they'll do the right thing.
    DarthDimi wrote:
    RogueAgent wrote:
    agreed that QOS was far too short for my liking too. im hoping for closer to 2hrs 30mins especially with this cast line up! Make the most of all of them while we can!

    Fully agreed. A decent playing time is important to me. QOS felt wrong as a short Bond, the shortest ever, like an extended episode from some non-existing Bond TV series. I want scope, a fully loaded and intricate script and a feature length of at least 2hrs 10mins.

    I want to be able to finish my large popcorn just after the credits roll- not have a quarter of a box leftover!
  • Posts: 3,278
    Kennon wrote:
    Maybe QOS's problem was that it tried too hard to be the anti-CR .

    No. It tried too hard to be Bourne.

    I figure that first cut was about 2 hrs, but once editing the whole thing they ended up with a much shorter running time, because of the "no clips longer than one second"-rule invented in Bourne 2 and 3.

  • Posts: 297
    @Zekid & @QBranch

    Wasn't my own idea, read it somewhere on the net at the time. But there's some details and elements that look as if the idea was to get a twisted mirror image of CR. Doesn't belong right here maybe, but the expectations on QOS were so high because CR did its thing so fine. And then the next flick just pushed the high speed button and lacked a decent story, yet had many of the original's elements 'twisted'.
  • Posts: 1,492
    Mendes and Craig both have script approval and I cant see them agreeing to do another DAD.

    Go in and enjoy it for what it is. I suspect the only ones who are going to be moaning are those expecting it to be another MR.
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