NO TIME TO DIE - Questions Thread

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  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited February 12 Posts: 3,152
    True, while the trajectory is of Bond gradually improving after the frags have been removed, it's not presented seamlessly - a good example indeed being the nerves and hesitation that he shows when failing to shoot the glass off Severine's head, yet he can kill all of Silva's henchmen without a problem a minute later. Maybe the Scotch kicked in and overruled the hesitancy! ;)
    I've always thought it was a shame that Mendes cut the scene of Bond struggling to run in Regents Park before the frags were removed - it would've been the perfect counterpart to him running full pelt from the Tube to the security committee meeting, with the direct comparison signifying clearly that he was back on top form. I know it tells us that, anyway, but the counterpart to the earlier scene would've been nice.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    @Venutius, I tend to forget about that shot but it was one of my favorites in the teaser trailer, for some reason. I don't know what it was about it but it really stood out to me.
  • Posts: 4,166
    Well, I think Bond not being able to shoot straight isn’t as much to do with his shoulder more than it is him ‘losing his nerve’. The way they edit it in the film with the psychiatrist’s evaluation coming after the failed marksmanship test gives me that sense anyway. It kinda makes sense that him being put ‘on the spot’ by Silva would make him hesitate and (probably purposely) mess it up.

    It’s probably been discussed at length now, but Bond’s age in SF never came across to me as him being past his prime (indeed the film is about him proving that he very much isn’t despite his injuries/personal issues). He’s very much an agent at his peak during the PTS. I’d say he’s actually faster and cleverer thinking on his feet in terms of how he pursues Patrice, less bullish and much smoother/skilled than in QOS and CR, with his one mistake ultimately costing him (also worth remembering that by the time he actually fights Patrice on top the train he’s already been shot in the shoulder. The fact that he can keep moving is astonishing. He’s a beast in this sense). Craig’s Bond to me comes off as being the same age/at the same point Brosnan’s Bond was in GE - that’s to say in his early 40s, having been an agent for a while. He’s not young, but still has potentially a number of years ahead of him with good health (which obviously in SF is under question). By SP he comes off as renewed and truly in his prime.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    007HallY wrote: »
    worth remembering that by the time he actually fights Patrice on top the train he’s already been shot in the shoulder.
    That's a good point, actually, and something that I have tended to overlook when watching the fight and thinking 'the Bond that killed Slate would've slapped Patrice off the top of that train by now'! :D
  • edited February 12 Posts: 4,166
    Venutius wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    worth remembering that by the time he actually fights Patrice on top the train he’s already been shot in the shoulder.
    That's a good point, actually, and something that I have tended to overlook when watching the fight and thinking 'the Bond that killed Slate would've slapped Patrice off the top of that train by now'! :D

    Different types of scenes in two different movies no doubt, but I think for me just because we see Patrice doing stuff like commandeering motorbikes and skilfully making various escapes, he comes off as more a match for Bond than Slate does.

    I also think the power of SF’s PTS is seeing Bond at his peak going against such an opponent, taking these hits, and metaphorically ‘dying’. He puts in a damn good fight on top of the train though. He actually gets a hit in (with the same arm as his bad shoulder as well) that knocks Patrice to the ground (not sure why but it’s a detail I’ve always subconsciously remembered. It’s a feeling of our hero’s taken a hit but will still win). Even with a bullet in his shoulder I think he would have come out on top had M not gotten Moneypenny to pull the trigger.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,976
    Yeah it's even more jarring for me going from a Bond that destroys everything in his path in QoS to one who's seemingly beyond his prime and is half the fighting force he was just one film prior.
  • edited February 12 Posts: 4,166
    Creasy47 wrote: »
    Yeah it's even more jarring for me going from a Bond that destroys everything in his path in QoS to one who's seemingly beyond his prime and is half the fighting force he was just one film prior.

    I think that’s an issue with QOS. I’d argue it’s a film where Bond is too superhuman and never sufficiently put at a disadvantage. Bond on top form is great (as I said this is what we got during SF’s PTS, and him getting injured amps up the tension with this in mind) but when the climax of QOS involves an unarmed Bond fighting a villain with an axe and we know Bond will win, it really nullifies any ‘edge of your seat’ feeling these films need. If anything that moment needed Bond to be injured or for Greene to have played some sort of dirty trick that knocks Bond off guard for longer.

    CR had its share of heightened reality during its action scenes, but we saw Bond getting legitimately hurt, even chugging whiskey and tending to wounds after fights. It brought a vulnerability to Bond that SF expanded and, in my opinion, the later Craig films and QOS somewhat neglected.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,804
    DarthDimi wrote: »

    I simply think that the career jump between QOS and SF was too abrupt. At least two standalone films could have been positioned between those two. In 2012, I wasn't ready for signs of Bond's exhaustion just yet, but that's the hard bullet I had to bite through. I ultimately accepted the meal that they had offered me, and perhaps that's also why Bond's demise in NTTD didn't offend me all that much. They'd been saying goodbyes for almost 10 years! They'd been hammering nails in his coffin since the SF PTS. In a way, I was getting used to the idea that Craig's tenure would either end with a retirement (SP) or something more dramatic (NTTD).
    NTTD was simply too much of a science fiction AND a soap opera for me. No, I didn't like Bond dying at all, but I could have swallowed it if the script hadn't been so heavy handed. So, on the basis of one piece of iffy evidence he decides Madeline betrayed him? And then he has a kid (so Crystal Skully)? He becomes a Dad, & then the nanobots make it so he can never be with them again (very Dark Angely)? Then he's forced onto an island, shot to hell, and then blown up for good measure? They should have just titled the film 'Day Of Our Lies" or something.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited February 12 Posts: 24,184
    Feyador wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    As much as I like the pre title sequence of NTTD Craig's era really should have ended with him driving off into the sunset in SP.

    Completely. Or even end with Skyfall's 'getting back to work'.

    NTTD was a disaster for many aficionados.

    NTTD was not a disaster for this aficionado, but I will concede this: the film didn't necessarily need to happen. Here's why.

    There's so much undiscovered territory between Bond Beginning (CR - QOS) and Old Man Bond (SF). The latter makes us think of Bond as not a young man anymore; he may want to consider retiring, he looks out of shape, he doesn't pass the tests, and so on. To see him rebuild himself, gain confidence again and take out Silva would have been a great way to immortalize him before allowing him a peaceful pension. Yet SP completely forgot about all this old Bond stuff, and NTTD made his return after many years look like a walk in the park. All the drama from SF was either ignored or contradicted.

    I simply think that the career jump between QOS and SF was too abrupt. At least two standalone films could have been positioned between those two. In 2012, I wasn't ready for signs of Bond's exhaustion just yet, but that's the hard bullet I had to bite through. I ultimately accepted the meal that they had offered me, and perhaps that's also why Bond's demise in NTTD didn't offend me all that much. They'd been saying goodbyes for almost 10 years! They'd been hammering nails in his coffin since the SF PTS. In a way, I was getting used to the idea that Craig's tenure would either end with a retirement (SP) or something more dramatic (NTTD).

    I think you're onto something ....

    "Goodbyes" and a lot of foreshadowing of inevitable death were very much a part of the Craig run from its very beginning.

    His Bond almost seemed to be rushing towards death from that seemingly suicidal chase at the beginning of CR. Perhaps this was bound to happen when you leaven the fantasy of entries 1 - 20 with some markedly closer to the reality of human existence.

    This semi-realistic sense of deathward trajectory includes the death of Vesper herself, and in Bond's fatalistic line about 00s having a short life expectancy. The matter of fact disposal of Mathis' body in QOS is also a smack in the face of those who didn't want to see it.

    It's even hinted at in the Matera scene of NTTD, in the car, when Madeleine has to beg Bond to save them. For a moment he seems overcome by this death impulse, absolutely devastated by her supposed betrayal ....

    It's this theme of mortality (not the fantasy of immortality) in which the ending of NTTD makes greater emotional sense. But it was there from the very beginning, if only we'd had eyes to see it ...

    @Feyador
    Looks like we're seeing the same things. Now, I'm not suggesting that this was the plan all along, but death is so prevalent throughout the Craig Bonds, that one wonders if this was by design after all. Especially important seems to have been the death of parents and brothers. Bond's parents play a symbolic part in SF; Judy's M serves as a surrogate mother (and her subordinates addressed her as "Mom".) We see Madeleine's parents get it. Safin lost his, and Camille lost hers; both are motivated by that loss. Oberhausen, in a way, lost his father to Bond -- he, too, is motivated by that. Silva is seen as Judy's M's other "son", which makes him something of a brother to Bond (and Mommy was very bad, wasn't she?) Then there's Felix, of course. Mathis exists somewhere between a brother and a father figure to Bond. Vesper is most likely an orphan (since she never denied Bond's claim.) Blofeld is Bond's foster brother. And, lastly, Bond himself, now a parent, must die too.

    My point is that never before, in any actor's tenure, had the focus been so much on deaths in the families, tragedies that motivated characters and even entire stories. Almost every single film in the Craig years had such themes running through it. The Connery years, by comparison, barely touched the subject at all.

    Does that make the death of Bond necessary or necessarily logical? No, but it makes his death, um, part of the "poetry"? I don't know. I don't hate it, I don't like it, I accept it. My point is that if any actor's tenure would be able to get away with it, it's Craig's. Personal deaths were never not on the agenda, and as soon as NTTD introduced offspring, I started contemplating Bond's death (knowing that Craig wasn't going to go out without one last surprise for us.)

    @Benny
    Thanks for the compliment.
  • DarthDimi wrote: »
    Feyador wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    As much as I like the pre title sequence of NTTD Craig's era really should have ended with him driving off into the sunset in SP.

    Completely. Or even end with Skyfall's 'getting back to work'.

    NTTD was a disaster for many aficionados.

    NTTD was not a disaster for this aficionado, but I will concede this: the film didn't necessarily need to happen. Here's why.

    There's so much undiscovered territory between Bond Beginning (CR - QOS) and Old Man Bond (SF). The latter makes us think of Bond as not a young man anymore; he may want to consider retiring, he looks out of shape, he doesn't pass the tests, and so on. To see him rebuild himself, gain confidence again and take out Silva would have been a great way to immortalize him before allowing him a peaceful pension. Yet SP completely forgot about all this old Bond stuff, and NTTD made his return after many years look like a walk in the park. All the drama from SF was either ignored or contradicted.

    I simply think that the career jump between QOS and SF was too abrupt. At least two standalone films could have been positioned between those two. In 2012, I wasn't ready for signs of Bond's exhaustion just yet, but that's the hard bullet I had to bite through. I ultimately accepted the meal that they had offered me, and perhaps that's also why Bond's demise in NTTD didn't offend me all that much. They'd been saying goodbyes for almost 10 years! They'd been hammering nails in his coffin since the SF PTS. In a way, I was getting used to the idea that Craig's tenure would either end with a retirement (SP) or something more dramatic (NTTD).

    I think you're onto something ....

    "Goodbyes" and a lot of foreshadowing of inevitable death were very much a part of the Craig run from its very beginning.

    His Bond almost seemed to be rushing towards death from that seemingly suicidal chase at the beginning of CR. Perhaps this was bound to happen when you leaven the fantasy of entries 1 - 20 with some markedly closer to the reality of human existence.

    This semi-realistic sense of deathward trajectory includes the death of Vesper herself, and in Bond's fatalistic line about 00s having a short life expectancy. The matter of fact disposal of Mathis' body in QOS is also a smack in the face of those who didn't want to see it.

    It's even hinted at in the Matera scene of NTTD, in the car, when Madeleine has to beg Bond to save them. For a moment he seems overcome by this death impulse, absolutely devastated by her supposed betrayal ....

    It's this theme of mortality (not the fantasy of immortality) in which the ending of NTTD makes greater emotional sense. But it was there from the very beginning, if only we'd had eyes to see it ...

    Judy's M serves as a surrogate mother (and her subordinates addressed her as "Mom".)
    Just to clear that up, only Silva refers to M as any sort of diminutive of Mother. Tanner, Moneypenny and the like call her "Ma'am," which in their respective accents sounds like Mom
  • Posts: 4,166
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Feyador wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    As much as I like the pre title sequence of NTTD Craig's era really should have ended with him driving off into the sunset in SP.

    Completely. Or even end with Skyfall's 'getting back to work'.

    NTTD was a disaster for many aficionados.

    NTTD was not a disaster for this aficionado, but I will concede this: the film didn't necessarily need to happen. Here's why.

    There's so much undiscovered territory between Bond Beginning (CR - QOS) and Old Man Bond (SF). The latter makes us think of Bond as not a young man anymore; he may want to consider retiring, he looks out of shape, he doesn't pass the tests, and so on. To see him rebuild himself, gain confidence again and take out Silva would have been a great way to immortalize him before allowing him a peaceful pension. Yet SP completely forgot about all this old Bond stuff, and NTTD made his return after many years look like a walk in the park. All the drama from SF was either ignored or contradicted.

    I simply think that the career jump between QOS and SF was too abrupt. At least two standalone films could have been positioned between those two. In 2012, I wasn't ready for signs of Bond's exhaustion just yet, but that's the hard bullet I had to bite through. I ultimately accepted the meal that they had offered me, and perhaps that's also why Bond's demise in NTTD didn't offend me all that much. They'd been saying goodbyes for almost 10 years! They'd been hammering nails in his coffin since the SF PTS. In a way, I was getting used to the idea that Craig's tenure would either end with a retirement (SP) or something more dramatic (NTTD).

    I think you're onto something ....

    "Goodbyes" and a lot of foreshadowing of inevitable death were very much a part of the Craig run from its very beginning.

    His Bond almost seemed to be rushing towards death from that seemingly suicidal chase at the beginning of CR. Perhaps this was bound to happen when you leaven the fantasy of entries 1 - 20 with some markedly closer to the reality of human existence.

    This semi-realistic sense of deathward trajectory includes the death of Vesper herself, and in Bond's fatalistic line about 00s having a short life expectancy. The matter of fact disposal of Mathis' body in QOS is also a smack in the face of those who didn't want to see it.

    It's even hinted at in the Matera scene of NTTD, in the car, when Madeleine has to beg Bond to save them. For a moment he seems overcome by this death impulse, absolutely devastated by her supposed betrayal ....

    It's this theme of mortality (not the fantasy of immortality) in which the ending of NTTD makes greater emotional sense. But it was there from the very beginning, if only we'd had eyes to see it ...

    @Feyador
    Looks like we're seeing the same things. Now, I'm not suggesting that this was the plan all along, but death is so prevalent throughout the Craig Bonds, that one wonders if this was by design after all. Especially important seems to have been the death of parents and brothers. Bond's parents play a symbolic part in SF; Judy's M serves as a surrogate mother (and her subordinates addressed her as "Mom".) We see Madeleine's parents get it. Safin lost his, and Camille lost hers; both are motivated by that loss. Oberhausen, in a way, lost his father to Bond -- he, too, is motivated by that. Silva is seen as Judy's M's other "son", which makes him something of a brother to Bond (and Mommy was very bad, wasn't she?) Then there's Felix, of course. Mathis exists somewhere between a brother and a father figure to Bond. Vesper is most likely an orphan (since she never denied Bond's claim.) Blofeld is Bond's foster brother. And, lastly, Bond himself, now a parent, must die too.

    My point is that never before, in any actor's tenure, had the focus been so much on deaths in the families, tragedies that motivated characters and even entire stories. Almost every single film in the Craig years had such themes running through it. The Connery years, by comparison, barely touched the subject at all.

    Does that make the death of Bond necessary or necessarily logical? No, but it makes his death, um, part of the "poetry"? I don't know. I don't hate it, I don't like it, I accept it. My point is that if any actor's tenure would be able to get away with it, it's Craig's. Personal deaths were never not on the agenda, and as soon as NTTD introduced offspring, I started contemplating Bond's death (knowing that Craig wasn't going to go out without one last surprise for us.)

    @Benny
    Thanks for the compliment.

    I like these posts a lot. Death was very much a part of the Craig Bond films, and his version of the character faced it often. I’d say Craig’s Bond was even written/played fundamentally as a man who presumed he would never live as long as he did by even NTTD (and not in a cheeky ‘devil may care’ way that his predecessors had, but more a ‘I don’t care if I drink myself to death but still want to feel something along the way’ manner that he has in QOS/SF. Very much something related to the Fleming novels).
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    Posts: 693
    Except the whole point behind the fantasy of Bond is that he faces death while not ever actually dying. He was never meant to have an arc. He doesn't even have one in the novels apart from maybe OHMSS-YOLT. Even after losing Vesper, being poisoned by Klebb, losing his wife, being shot in the head, losing his memory, and being brainwashed by the Soviets he still ends TMWTGG as pretty much the same character he was in CR.
  • edited February 13 Posts: 4,166
    slide_99 wrote: »
    Except the whole point behind the fantasy of Bond is that he faces death while not ever actually dying. He was never meant to have an arc. He doesn't even have one in the novels apart from maybe OHMSS-YOLT. Even after losing Vesper, being poisoned by Klebb, losing his wife, being shot in the head, losing his memory, and being brainwashed by the Soviets he still ends TMWTGG as pretty much the same character he was in CR.

    Erm, very debatable. It’s not that Bond has a pre-designed character arc in the novels, but he certainly has different facets of his personality which change/adapt based on his experiences. In CR he’s rather cold, arrogant, impersonal (and actually quite overtly sexist, and not in a way I suspect even Fleming intended to be glamorous). By the end he falls in love and is betrayed, his chance at a happy life shattered, and returns to MI6. In later novels he gains a sense of humour (even if it’s very gallows humour/not quite the light, quippy lines we get in the films), falls in love far more easily/falls for women with ‘one wing broken’ to the point he wants to protect them, becomes much more prone to his vices and depression when not on a mission. He becomes very self reflective of his past by the later novels, his dislike of killing in cold blood becomes more apparent to the point it creates conflict in regards to him doing his job, and he frequently confronts ideas like whether he should leave the service or not, and whether he indeed can ever settle down. I’m not sure if he’s quite the same character by the end.

    It’s very similar to Craig’s Bond. Even in NTTD there’s a very Fleming-esque conflict between Bond potentially being able to have a happy life, and yet fate/his duty never allows him this. It’s one thing to say that Bond shouldn’t die (I actually agree) but it’s another to say that Fleming’s Bond doesn’t change at all throughout the novels, and I actually wonder if you’ve read them recently/are that familiar with them if you think this.
  • Posts: 1,996
    Arguably one could say Bond's death has been foreshadowed since CR. The death exhibit followed by Bond's actual death in the Aston Martin before being electroshocked back to life. If one sees QoS at CR Part II, does that count? In SF he is shot from the train and manages to fall into the river and drift through the credits until he washes up alive in Jamaica. His skeletal costume in SP telegraphs his impending death in NTTD. And of course NTTD obliterates all trace of him. Despite the foreshadowing, how has the series benefitted?

  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,812
    It brings Bond back to CR and answers Chris Cornell screaming "are you willing to die?!?" at him.

    Of course he always was. It didn't happen when he was an active agent, but he'd stayed around long enough that events would follow him. So an unexpected and respectful closure to the character. Not in conflict with reestablishing another actor in the role.

    450_1000.jpeg
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited February 13 Posts: 18,281
    On the theory about Safin being meant to be Dr. No the following quote from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle/Sherlock Holmes is important to keep in mind:

    1*dkz5t5XWJAovaMWqD9IACg.jpeg
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    On the theory about Safin being meant to be Dr. No the following quote from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle/Sherlock Holmes is important to keep in mind:

    1*dkz5t5XWJAovaMWqD9IACg.jpeg

    An excellent quote, even if Sir Arthur was, in addition to a brilliant writer, a spiritualist crank. ;-)

    To clarify, I don't think he's meant to be Dr No in the final film, just that it appears to have once been the plan. I think @007HallY offered the best counterpoints I could imagine, but I think the theory best explains Safin's appearance, his minions' appearances, his apparent heart placement, his being called doctor, Malek's coy comments about "final names", etc. The several separate speculations seem like special pleading when compared to the single speculation. One has to look at each separate fact and ask, "would we be more likely to see this on the assumption that he was Dr No, or more likely to see this on the assumption that he wasn't Dr No?" Or, "Is this weird to do if he's not Dr No, or is it weird to do if he is Dr No?" I mean, a "doctor" with a Noh mask logo who resembles Dr No, a character from the same series, following a film with another rebooted character. If Safin had a golden gun and a third nipple and one character called him "Francisco" in passing once, I'd make a different assumption!
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    only Silva refers to M as any sort of diminutive of Mother. Tanner, Moneypenny and the like call her "Ma'am," which in their respective accents sounds like Mom
    Indeed. 'Ma'am' is 'Madam' without the 'd' and in CR and QOS, Craig pronounced it correctly as 'Mam' - while in SF they all pronounced it incorrectly as 'Marm', like Southerners do. I blame Mendes!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,184
    Nevertheless, enough references are made to Bond as one of M's sons, and to M liking to think she's his mother and whatnot, that the ma'am/mom confusion doesn't seem all that unintentional.
  • edited February 13 Posts: 4,166
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    On the theory about Safin being meant to be Dr. No the following quote from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle/Sherlock Holmes is important to keep in mind:

    1*dkz5t5XWJAovaMWqD9IACg.jpeg

    An excellent quote, even if Sir Arthur was, in addition to a brilliant writer, a spiritualist crank. ;-)

    To clarify, I don't think he's meant to be Dr No in the final film, just that it appears to have once been the plan. I think @007HallY offered the best counterpoints I could imagine, but I think the theory best explains Safin's appearance, his minions' appearances, his apparent heart placement, his being called doctor, Malek's coy comments about "final names", etc. The several separate speculations seem like special pleading when compared to the single speculation. One has to look at each separate fact and ask, "would we be more likely to see this on the assumption that he was Dr No, or more likely to see this on the assumption that he wasn't Dr No?" Or, "Is this weird to do if he's not Dr No, or is it weird to do if he is Dr No?" I mean, a "doctor" with a Noh mask logo who resembles Dr No, a character from the same series, following a film with another rebooted character. If Safin had a golden gun and a third nipple and one character called him "Francisco" in passing once, I'd make a different assumption!

    I suppose it’s something that could potentially be asked during an interview or some Q and A in the future… I suspect that at least one producer has already denied this though as there were fan rumours about this when the trailer got released IIRC. Personally I just can’t see a timeframe/scenario where such a plot twist could be realistically edited out (except for that doctor reference, which again makes absolutely no sense as it seems specifically recorded in post production). At most it might have been an early script idea, but even then it seems like the sort of trivia fact that’d have come out by now. It’s so much more likely Safin is simply a sort of hybrid character which pays a heavier than usual homage to the classic Bond villains, specifically DN. NTTD is a film partly built on these broad references/adaptations on old Bond iconography anyway.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Nevertheless, enough references are made to Bond as one of M's sons, and to M liking to think she's his mother and whatnot, that the ma'am/mom confusion doesn't seem all that unintentional.

    Indeed. It's just the way they said 'marm' that grated on me ;)
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    007HallY wrote: »
    (except for that doctor reference, which again makes absolutely no sense as it seems specifically recorded in post production)

    Yeah, I don't remember whether or not that clearly seemed recorded after the fact, but it just comes down to what you think is weirder, I suppose! I can't recall from any other film something comparable to a random character giving someone an inexplicable title just once. But it's also odd that they would fail to "remove" that from the script or whatever, as you said. Also weird that they didn't redo Daniel's "Blofield", but there it is!

    I admit I sort of want this theory to be true for its explanatory power! I love Safin as a villain, but when he has Bond captive on his island and he discusses power and Bond makes a quip about playing God (!), his motivations appear to have changed, and a lot of people find it a bit flaky. (I like it) Additionally, the very mechanism of the superweapon appears to change a bit to something much more organic. It all feels like something you wouldn't just sit down and write to be the way it turned out, and that some big changes were made (post-COVID or whatever), and that Noh mask logo on the monitors is also part of it.

    I think the flakiest villain motivation prior to Safin was probably Stromberg, who was a Blofeld replacement. Drax too, but he was revisiting Stromberg. DAF Blofeld is an odd one, extorting the world for cash when he has enough diamonds to cover a satellite. Maybe Gert Fröbe would have had a more logical motivation if he ended up in his place as once conceived?

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,184
    Venutius wrote: »
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Nevertheless, enough references are made to Bond as one of M's sons, and to M liking to think she's his mother and whatnot, that the ma'am/mom confusion doesn't seem all that unintentional.

    Indeed. It's just the way they said 'marm' that grated on me ;)

    Well, I'm not a native speaker so it doesn't bother me that much. ;-) It took a while to get used to it, however. Brosnan had never addressed her as his mother.
  • edited February 13 Posts: 4,166
    007HallY wrote: »
    (except for that doctor reference, which again makes absolutely no sense as it seems specifically recorded in post production)

    Yeah, I don't remember whether or not that clearly seemed recorded after the fact, but it just comes down to what you think is weirder, I suppose! I can't recall from any other film something comparable to a random character giving someone an inexplicable title just once. But it's also odd that they would fail to "remove" that from the script or whatever, as you said. Also weird that they didn't redo Daniel's "Blofield", but there it is!

    I’m pretty sure it was recorded afterwards/is ADR, or at the very least is something lifted from a different scene during production/has purposely been put there. The shot is very wide to the point no boom mics could fit above the frame to pick much up. There might be lapel mics on them (and I can’t remember how long that particular take lasts/if Malek talks afterwards, which could also have been ADR’d as is relatively common). The biggest clue for me is that you don’t actually see the henchman’s lips move (again, the shot is too wide) and I know shooting those climatic scenes was tight anyway and there is some patching together of things like the buyer ships etc.
    I admit I sort of want this theory to be true for its explanatory power! I love Safin as a villain, but when he has Bond captive on his island and he discusses power and Bond makes a quip about playing God (!), his motivations appear to have changed, and a lot of people find it a bit flaky. (I like it) Additionally, the very mechanism of the superweapon appears to change a bit to something much more organic. It all feels like something you wouldn't just sit down and write to be the way it turned out, and that some big changes were made (post-COVID or whatever), and that Noh mask logo on the monitors is also part of it.

    I think the flakiest villain motivation prior to Safin was probably Stromberg, who was a Blofeld replacement. Drax too, but he was revisiting Stromberg. DAF Blofeld is an odd one, extorting the world for cash when he has enough diamonds to cover a satellite. Maybe Gert Fröbe would have had a more logical motivation if he ended up in his place as once conceived?

    I do agree Safin’s motives become a bit vague during those scenes, or at least come across that way. I don’t think you need much to create a good Bond villain motive (can be as simple as he simply wants to be known as the worlds biggest gold industrialist) but making sure it boils down to something relatively simple is key. The issue with Safin is he starts off as a rogue hell bent on destroying SPECTRE out of revenge (which is a great motive) but after they’re all killed the game plan of him becoming this megalomaniac comes off as a bit jarring. It doesn’t feel natural, as if the film is dealing with two different characters. His love for Madeline further muddies things, and the ‘invisible God’ lines is the sort of vague cerebral nonsense that personally just confuses me.

    I’m not too sure of all the ins and outs but from my understanding there was some patchwork/editing and a dash of improvisation between Malek and Craig done to change things a bit (even little things like Safin just letting Mathilda walk off looks a bit devised in the edit/seems to have replaced a scene seen in the trailer where Safin points a gun at her). I’m not sure if anything was changed because of Covid though, and I doubt anything was fundamentally changed.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    Well, I'm not a native speaker so it doesn't bother me that much. ;-) It took a while to get used to it, however. Brosnan had never addressed her as his mother.
    Yeah, it's just that it's almost always mispronounced so it was refreshing to hear Craig say it correctly with a flat vowel in CR and QOS - but then he went along with the long vowel error in SF. I'll shut up about this now...cough...
  • Posts: 1,996
    However pronounced, I've never interpreted any character except Silva referring to M as mother or any derivative thereof.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    (except for that doctor reference, which again makes absolutely no sense as it seems specifically recorded in post production)

    Yeah, I don't remember whether or not that clearly seemed recorded after the fact, but it just comes down to what you think is weirder, I suppose! I can't recall from any other film something comparable to a random character giving someone an inexplicable title just once. But it's also odd that they would fail to "remove" that from the script or whatever, as you said. Also weird that they didn't redo Daniel's "Blofield", but there it is!

    I’m pretty sure it was recorded afterwards/is ADR, or at the very least is something lifted from a different scene during production/has purposely been put there. The shot is very wide to the point no boom mics could fit above the frame to pick much up. There might be lapel mics on them (and I can’t remember how long that particular take lasts/if Malek talks afterwards, which could also have been ADR’d as is relatively common). The biggest clue for me is that you don’t actually see the henchman’s lips move (again, the shot is too wide) and I know shooting those climatic scenes was tight anyway and there is some patching together of things like the buyer ships etc.
    I admit I sort of want this theory to be true for its explanatory power! I love Safin as a villain, but when he has Bond captive on his island and he discusses power and Bond makes a quip about playing God (!), his motivations appear to have changed, and a lot of people find it a bit flaky. (I like it) Additionally, the very mechanism of the superweapon appears to change a bit to something much more organic. It all feels like something you wouldn't just sit down and write to be the way it turned out, and that some big changes were made (post-COVID or whatever), and that Noh mask logo on the monitors is also part of it.

    I think the flakiest villain motivation prior to Safin was probably Stromberg, who was a Blofeld replacement. Drax too, but he was revisiting Stromberg. DAF Blofeld is an odd one, extorting the world for cash when he has enough diamonds to cover a satellite. Maybe Gert Fröbe would have had a more logical motivation if he ended up in his place as once conceived?

    I do agree Safin’s motives become a bit vague during those scenes, or at least come across that way. I don’t think you need much to create a good Bond villain motive (can be as simple as he simply wants to be known as the worlds biggest gold industrialist) but making sure it boils down to something relatively simple is key. The issue with Safin is he starts off as a rogue hell bent on destroying SPECTRE out of revenge (which is a great motive) but after they’re all killed the game plan of him becoming this megalomaniac comes off as a bit jarring. It doesn’t feel natural, as if the film is dealing with two different characters. His love for Madeline further muddies things, and the ‘invisible God’ lines is the sort of vague cerebral nonsense that personally just confuses me.

    I’m not too sure of all the ins and outs but from my understanding there was some patchwork/editing and a dash of improvisation between Malek and Craig done to change things a bit (even little things like Safin just letting Mathilda walk off looks a bit devised in the edit/seems to have replaced a scene seen in the trailer where Safin points a gun at her). I’m not sure if anything was changed because of Covid though, and I doubt anything was fundamentally changed.

    There are several ADR fixes in NTTD to help the audience along. "Madeleine...she's an agent of SPECTRE!" is one.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    'It is working - only Spectre are dying' is probably the most egregious. Did anybody really need a Borat voiceover to work it out?
  • edited February 17 Posts: 4,166
    echo wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    (except for that doctor reference, which again makes absolutely no sense as it seems specifically recorded in post production)

    Yeah, I don't remember whether or not that clearly seemed recorded after the fact, but it just comes down to what you think is weirder, I suppose! I can't recall from any other film something comparable to a random character giving someone an inexplicable title just once. But it's also odd that they would fail to "remove" that from the script or whatever, as you said. Also weird that they didn't redo Daniel's "Blofield", but there it is!

    I’m pretty sure it was recorded afterwards/is ADR, or at the very least is something lifted from a different scene during production/has purposely been put there. The shot is very wide to the point no boom mics could fit above the frame to pick much up. There might be lapel mics on them (and I can’t remember how long that particular take lasts/if Malek talks afterwards, which could also have been ADR’d as is relatively common). The biggest clue for me is that you don’t actually see the henchman’s lips move (again, the shot is too wide) and I know shooting those climatic scenes was tight anyway and there is some patching together of things like the buyer ships etc.
    I admit I sort of want this theory to be true for its explanatory power! I love Safin as a villain, but when he has Bond captive on his island and he discusses power and Bond makes a quip about playing God (!), his motivations appear to have changed, and a lot of people find it a bit flaky. (I like it) Additionally, the very mechanism of the superweapon appears to change a bit to something much more organic. It all feels like something you wouldn't just sit down and write to be the way it turned out, and that some big changes were made (post-COVID or whatever), and that Noh mask logo on the monitors is also part of it.

    I think the flakiest villain motivation prior to Safin was probably Stromberg, who was a Blofeld replacement. Drax too, but he was revisiting Stromberg. DAF Blofeld is an odd one, extorting the world for cash when he has enough diamonds to cover a satellite. Maybe Gert Fröbe would have had a more logical motivation if he ended up in his place as once conceived?

    I do agree Safin’s motives become a bit vague during those scenes, or at least come across that way. I don’t think you need much to create a good Bond villain motive (can be as simple as he simply wants to be known as the worlds biggest gold industrialist) but making sure it boils down to something relatively simple is key. The issue with Safin is he starts off as a rogue hell bent on destroying SPECTRE out of revenge (which is a great motive) but after they’re all killed the game plan of him becoming this megalomaniac comes off as a bit jarring. It doesn’t feel natural, as if the film is dealing with two different characters. His love for Madeline further muddies things, and the ‘invisible God’ lines is the sort of vague cerebral nonsense that personally just confuses me.

    I’m not too sure of all the ins and outs but from my understanding there was some patchwork/editing and a dash of improvisation between Malek and Craig done to change things a bit (even little things like Safin just letting Mathilda walk off looks a bit devised in the edit/seems to have replaced a scene seen in the trailer where Safin points a gun at her). I’m not sure if anything was changed because of Covid though, and I doubt anything was fundamentally changed.

    There are several ADR fixes in NTTD to help the audience along. "Madeleine...she's an agent of SPECTRE!" is one.

    My personal favourite is “oNlY sPeCtRe ArE dYiNG” 😂
    Venutius wrote: »
    'It is working - only Spectre are dying' is probably the most egregious. Did anybody really need a Borat voiceover to work it out?

    The weirdest part is they thought it’d be best to add in that line, and yet moments later he looks across the room at Paloma and fumbles out ‘are you, ugh, for my esc-‘ and just sort of stops speaking. If anything that’s a line which could have been made better with ADR.

    I mean, I get it’s played for laughs, and I guess he’s meant to be nervous around Paloma? The character to me always came across as more eccentric than socially awkward honestly, and it’s such a strange moment that it took me a while to work out it was a joke.
  • Posts: 387
    The character I think has MGW hands all over him.
    That kind of humor goes back to FYEO, or maybe earlier?
    There are many overdubbed added one liners in that scene, like "May I cut in?", "There you are", and countless others. It could be cool to do an inventory.
    Me think the audiences were confused, during test screenings, so they did some overdub doctoring.
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