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Tomorrow Never Dies: what went wrong?

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  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    I think my biggest issue is less that if played it safe and more that it didn’t really take enough advantage of very promising premises, and that what they ultimately did do weren’t executed well. All for TND, TWINE, and DAD have solid foundations for what could have been remarkable Bond films, and yet they feel like they’re going through the motions.

    Like, Bond reconnecting with a former flame? That would actually be great for an entire film, but instead it’s relegated to a sacrificial lamb and not even done well.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Like, Bond reconnecting with a former flame? That would actually be great for an entire film, but instead it’s relegated to a sacrificial lamb and not even done well.
    Agreed, it was not the strongest bit in the film. But I felt Arnold's score & Brosnan sold it pretty well anyway...
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Like, Bond reconnecting with a former flame? That would actually be great for an entire film, but instead it’s relegated to a sacrificial lamb and not even done well.
    Agreed, it was not the strongest bit in the film. But I felt Arnold's score & Brosnan sold it pretty well anyway...

    Oh @MakeshiftPython's feelings about the music in that scene are well known, by this stage! :))
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Arnold's use of the themes in the song "Tomorrow Never Dies; Surrender" played at the end credits is part of why I love this film so much.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Like, Bond reconnecting with a former flame? That would actually be great for an entire film, but instead it’s relegated to a sacrificial lamb and not even done well.
    Agreed, it was not the strongest bit in the film. But I felt Arnold's score & Brosnan sold it pretty well anyway...

    Oh @MakeshiftPython's feelings about the music in that scene are well known, by this stage! :))

    seinfeld-jerry-seinfeld.gif
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    CraigMooreOHMSS wrote: »
    chrisisall wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Like, Bond reconnecting with a former flame? That would actually be great for an entire film, but instead it’s relegated to a sacrificial lamb and not even done well.
    Agreed, it was not the strongest bit in the film. But I felt Arnold's score & Brosnan sold it pretty well anyway...

    Oh @MakeshiftPython's feelings about the music in that scene are well known, by this stage! :))

    seinfeld-jerry-seinfeld.gif
    Ad hominem missiles cleared to fire. :P
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    This is me when someone asks my opinion on David Arnold.

    giphy.gif
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    This is me when someone asks my opinion on David Arnold.

    giphy.gif

    Missiles hit MakeshiftPython! Motherpussbucket!
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    C9.
  • ColonelAdamskiColonelAdamski UK
    Posts: 1,075
    chrisisall wrote: »
    TND is found guilty of playing it safe to simply deliver a supremely entertaining Bond move that mostly hits the marks that make you grin & leaves the really edgy stuff to other entries. Because it achieved its goal so profoundly, I hereby grant it a pardon. ;)

    I grant that same pardon to DAD. I know it's not a great movie, but I really think its good intentions as a Bond to beat them all on the anniversary are there. It's a shame it all ended up as a bit of an omelet with too many ingredients.
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    Posts: 1,394
    Iv always loved TND.I’m one of those people who found GE a tad overrated on its release.I found Brosnan was decent as Bond but not quite there yet and the score was terrible.

    TND on the other hand is where I thought he really came into his own as 007.He just swaggers his way through the film in great style and helped along by David Arnold’s fantastic score.Elliot Carver is one of my favourite Bond villains,a guy who just LOVES being in the limelight and being evil! And as Iv mentioned before,this is where I was introduced to the fabulous Michelle Yeoh and Iv been a massive fan of her since.

    When I was younger it was my favourite Brosnan Bond.These days TWINE tops it thanks it’s more mature tone and greater balance of action,humour, and drama,but TND will always be a top Bond for me and one I reach for when I’m in need of a pick me up ( Which I certainly needed lately after NTTD left me feeling depressed ).
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Iv always loved TND.I’m one of those people who found GE a tad overrated on its release.I found Brosnan was decent as Bond but not quite there yet and the score was terrible.

    TND on the other hand is where I thought he really came into his own as 007.He just swaggers his way through the film in great style and helped along by David Arnold’s fantastic score.Elliot Carver is one of my favourite Bond villains,a guy who just LOVES being in the limelight and being evil! And as Iv mentioned before,this is where I was introduced to the fabulous Michelle Yeoh and Iv been a massive fan of her since.

    When I was younger it was my favourite Brosnan Bond.These days TWINE tops it thanks it’s more mature tone and greater balance of action,humour, and drama,but TND will always be a top Bond for me and one I reach for when I’m in need of a pick me up ( Which I certainly needed lately after NTTD left me feeling depressed ).

    I knight thee a Brosnan Defender Of The Realm!
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,916
    chrisisall wrote: »
    TND is found guilty of playing it safe to simply deliver a supremely entertaining Bond move that mostly hits the marks that make you grin & leaves the really edgy stuff to other entries. Because it achieved its goal so profoundly, I hereby grant it a pardon. ;)

    Exactly. Like you read my mind.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    I do agree with @M16_Cart, DAD is the better film. It’s better at capturing that Lewis Gilbert vibe more than what TND attempted. And Brosnan actually owns the role for once rather than merely occupying the part.
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    Posts: 1,394
    chrisisall wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Iv always loved TND.I’m one of those people who found GE a tad overrated on its release.I found Brosnan was decent as Bond but not quite there yet and the score was terrible.

    TND on the other hand is where I thought he really came into his own as 007.He just swaggers his way through the film in great style and helped along by David Arnold’s fantastic score.Elliot Carver is one of my favourite Bond villains,a guy who just LOVES being in the limelight and being evil! And as Iv mentioned before,this is where I was introduced to the fabulous Michelle Yeoh and Iv been a massive fan of her since.

    When I was younger it was my favourite Brosnan Bond.These days TWINE tops it thanks it’s more mature tone and greater balance of action,humour, and drama,but TND will always be a top Bond for me and one I reach for when I’m in need of a pick me up ( Which I certainly needed lately after NTTD left me feeling depressed ).

    I knight thee a Brosnan Defender Of The Realm!

    I am honoured and will continue to serve as defender of all things Brosnan!

  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,157
    We have this thread discussing pretty much the same thing:

    https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/15872/is-tomorrow-never-dies-the-most-formulaic-bond-film/p6

    Which one shall we keep?
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    I'd say keep the most recent one. It has more posts also (just about).
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,157
    Very well. But once again, I must urge people, including @M16_Cart, to search a little harder before starting a new thread.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    If, for instance, FRWL, GF, TLD, LTK, & CR are banquets, TND is a luxury grilled cheese with fries & a chocolate shake. Sometimes I just want comfort food.... ;)
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,275
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Vic’s sequences are certainly my least favorite. A real step down from GE. Thank goodness he was not hired back after DAD.

    TND features the cringeworthy escape from the newspaper on a little scooter. Yes, those were fun to ride...when I was in kindergarten. And the let's-hit-everyone-with-musical-instruments fight is equally bad.

    I actively dislike TND whenever I have the misfortune of thinking about it.
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    Posts: 1,030
    chrisisall wrote: »
    If, for instance, FRWL, GF, TLD, LTK, & CR are banquets, TND is a luxury grilled cheese with fries & a chocolate shake. Sometimes I just want comfort food.... ;)

    This. Which is why it falls squarely in the middle for me. It does generic Bond fantastically competently. Nothing more, nothing less.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,462
    I’ve grown to appreciate TND a lot more over time. Used to be my least favorite Brosnan Bond and one of my least favorites in the whole series, but it’s comfortably out of my bottom tier now and I regard it as the second-best Brosnan Bond after GE. The action is mostly terrific and Brosnan’s performance is his most comfortable and cool in the role. The news angle with Elliot aged like a fine wine, and the girls Paris and Wai Lin are very good. A nice debut for David Arnold too! I don’t consider it an elite-level Bond film, but I find lots to enjoy and for a while now have had it significantly above TWINE and DAD (I find the Brosnan era to have weakened with each entry significantly).
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,205
    echo wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Vic’s sequences are certainly my least favorite. A real step down from GE. Thank goodness he was not hired back after DAD.

    TND features the cringeworthy escape from the newspaper on a little scooter. Yes, those were fun to ride...when I was in kindergarten.

    I don't remember the little scooter? What scooter is this?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    FoxRox wrote: »
    I’ve grown to appreciate TND a lot more over time. Used to be my least favorite Brosnan Bond and one of my least favorites in the whole series, but it’s comfortably out of my bottom tier now and I regard it as the second-best Brosnan Bond after GE. The action is mostly terrific and Brosnan’s performance is his most comfortable and cool in the role. The news angle with Elliot aged like a fine wine, and the girls Paris and Wai Lin are very good. A nice debut for David Arnold too! I don’t consider it an elite-level Bond film, but I find lots to enjoy and for a while now have had it significantly above TWINE and DAD (I find the Brosnan era to have weakened with each entry significantly).

    Honestly, if GE had a David Arnold soundtrack, I might like it even better than TND... but as it stands, TND is my favourite Brosnan flick (and as it happens, my third favourite Bond movie overall as well).
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,462
    @chrisisall I’d be interested to see your full ranking in the big simple list thread.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    FoxRox wrote: »
    @chrisisall I’d be interested to see your full ranking in the big simple list thread.

    It's there near the end of the last page. I re-did it after I saw NTTD.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,178
    Arnold would have made GE lesser with a score.

    I will NOT accept anyone but Eric Serra for that film.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,462
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Arnold would have made GE lesser with a score.

    I will NOT accept anyone but Eric Serra for that film.

    +1. Arnold is a favorite composer of mine, but GE’s soundtrack is so unique and perfect for it.
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    edited November 2021 Posts: 1,394
    FoxRox wrote: »
    MakeshiftPython wrote: »
    Arnold would have made GE lesser with a score.

    I will NOT accept anyone but Eric Serra for that film.

    +1. Arnold is a favorite composer of mine, but GE’s soundtrack is so unique and perfect for it.

    Eric Serra’s score for GE was atrocious.And it’s pretty clear that the producers thought so too given that they had the crucial Tank chase restored.I can only imagine that there was not enough time to rescore the entire film or get a suitable replacement for Serra at the time.

    I remember being so disappointed with that aspect of GE so Arnold’s fantastic score to TND was a pure delight when I first saw the film.The film is improved immensely because of it.

    To this day “ Backseat driver “ is one of my all time favourite action cues from the franchise.I really hope a complete edition of the score is released by La La Land at some point.



  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Eric Serra’s score for GE was atrocious.
    Don' mince words AstonLotus, tell us how you really feel...
    :D
    I don't think it was atrocious, but I didn't like it when I saw the movie the first time, and in about 20 or so viewings I've never warmed to it. It's just okay IMHO.
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