BOND 26. PTS ideas to introduce the new Bond.

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  • Posts: 1,993
    I watch a lot of British crime drama and I am always amused by the synopses: the lead is always damaged, a drunk, recovering from this, that, or the other. So many struggle with tragedies, divorces, broken marriages, never home on time, forget dates, etc. It all rises to cliche.

    I would like to see a modern Bond whose demon is sense of duty and patriotism.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    Patriotism isn’t really Bond’s thing: he is vaguely the same character from the books to the films, and that’s not really what motivates him as I see it. He has a sense of morality of course and does what’s right, but also he does it because he needs the thrill of danger himself. A love of his country isn’t very high up the list, even if Roger would say a glib ‘England needs me’ occasionally.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,582
    If anything, it's Q who's the patriot, what with his Union Jack parachute and rocket pen provided to Bond, hot air balloon, coffee mug (AVTAK), and toaster (NTTD). That's quite a lot when you look at it.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited July 2023 Posts: 3,789
    I don't think the Bond in the books has that sense of patriotism, he's a lot more patriotic in the films, I think.

    He may speak some Political opinions through defending England, but that's mostly his snobbery, he's a bit of arrogant in the books (it's mostly obvious in You Only Live Twice, the book of course, when he's the defending the British interest and arguing with it to Tiger Tanaka), it's not patriotism, it's snobbery.

    Heck, he even hates tea, which is surprising how tea was very associated to the culture of England.

    He's a snob, but not a patriot.

    And that snobbery thing was not something that's exposed or played in the films yet.
  • edited July 2023 Posts: 4,162
    To be fair I think there's definitely a patriotism to James Bond. That's not to say he's a jingoistic character or one who is blind to the flaws of his country or Government (even during his discussions in YOLT with Tanaka he concedes that Britain isn't the nation it once was during the Empire). He's also a rather contradictory character in terms of this sort of thing - he's constantly described by others as 'an Englishman' and yet he's Scottish/Swiss, and by own admission seems out of place in a London gentleman's club (despite his legitimate fascination with its history etc). He hates tea but also claims without irony that it was 'the downfall of the British Empire'. He's essentially a servant of Her Majesty's Government and yet he claims he wouldn't want to be knighted even if allowed because he's 'a Scottish peasant' at heart.

    It's more in his sense of duty where his patriotism lies. It's less of a flag waving, banging on about British superiority thing, but more in an oath to protect his country. I wouldn't necessarily say he does his job purely out of morality (on the contrary he admits in the books that his profession involves a lot of 'dirty work' that even he questions) but there is definitely that thrill seeking side to him too. In terms of the films SF got this dynamic down quite well, with Bond's sense of duty being one the fundamental traits to separate him from Silva.

    (Also, not going to lie, I've just noticed this is a thread about PTS ideas, haha).
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited July 2023 Posts: 2,044
    The opening action/PTS like TLD, GE & CR, has to be visually arresting, so we immediately embrace Bond 7. If possible, Bond shouldn't utter a word until the PTS ends...like TLD.
  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    Posts: 2,641
    The opening action/PTS like TLD, GE & CR, has to be visually arresting, so we immediately embrace Bond 7. If possible, Bond shouldn't utter a word until the PTS ends...like TLD.

    That's exactly what I'd love. Those three are probably my top 3 PTS's. Peak Bond
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2023 Posts: 16,413
    In a way, the only films in the last 25 or so years not to give Bond a big reveal have been QoS and TWINE. NTTD too I guess.
  • edited July 2023 Posts: 15,124
    The Vesper callback is to Fleming as the source.

    To me that's cooked into every actor in the Bond role. Past and forever. The audience is aware or not.

    Good point. Like Tracy in the old continuity. Not every viewer knew what Felix referenced to in LTK, yet it was there.
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I watch a lot of British crime drama and I am always amused by the synopses: the lead is always damaged, a drunk, recovering from this, that, or the other. So many struggle with tragedies, divorces, broken marriages, never home on time, forget dates, etc. It all rises to cliche.

    I would like to see a modern Bond whose demon is sense of duty and patriotism.

    Clichés become clichés because they work. Now there are ways to give some an original twists, while ditching others, but personal stakes are an integral part of drama and of pretty much every franchise now.

    Beside, senses of duty and patriotism don't happen or live in a vacuum: they will have their toll on personal life and will influence a character's behaviour.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    Ludovico wrote: »
    The Vesper callback is to Fleming as the source.

    To me that's cooked into every actor in the Bond role. Past and forever. The audience is aware or not.

    Good point. Like Tracy in the old continuity. Not every viewer knew what Felix referenced to in LTK, yet it was there.

    It's a shame he didn't make it a bit more explicit:
    "He was married once. His wife was murdered on their wedding day - good thing that's not going to happen to us!"
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    Posts: 3,789
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    The Vesper callback is to Fleming as the source.

    To me that's cooked into every actor in the Bond role. Past and forever. The audience is aware or not.

    Good point. Like Tracy in the old continuity. Not every viewer knew what Felix referenced to in LTK, yet it was there.

    It's a shame he didn't make it a bit more explicit:
    "He was married once. His wife was murdered on their wedding day - good thing that's not going to happen to us!"

    Man, that's too harsh 😅.

    I'm already glad with what we've got.
  • Posts: 1,993
    mtm wrote: »
    Patriotism isn’t really Bond’s thing: he is vaguely the same character from the books to the films, and that’s not really what motivates him as I see it. He has a sense of morality of course and does what’s right, but also he does it because he needs the thrill of danger himself. A love of his country isn’t very high up the list, even if Roger would say a glib ‘England needs me’ occasionally.

    In finding a new direction, patriotism and duty could be Bond's thing in the next series, rather than a continuation of Craig's revenge and betrayal motivations. Not a thing wrong with love of country. It's okay to love the UK despite its history and flaws.

    I liked Craig's take on Bond, but I am ready for a Bond without the same baggage Craig brought to the character.

    My hope is Bond 26 will start with a rollicking PTS that introduces a new and energetic Bond that will have audiences cheering before the opening credits roll.

  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited July 2023 Posts: 3,789
    CrabKey wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Patriotism isn’t really Bond’s thing: he is vaguely the same character from the books to the films, and that’s not really what motivates him as I see it. He has a sense of morality of course and does what’s right, but also he does it because he needs the thrill of danger himself. A love of his country isn’t very high up the list, even if Roger would say a glib ‘England needs me’ occasionally.

    My hope is Bond 26 will start with a rollicking PTS that introduces a new and energetic Bond that will have audiences cheering before the opening credits roll.

    This! Agreed!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2023 Posts: 16,413
    CrabKey wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Patriotism isn’t really Bond’s thing: he is vaguely the same character from the books to the films, and that’s not really what motivates him as I see it. He has a sense of morality of course and does what’s right, but also he does it because he needs the thrill of danger himself. A love of his country isn’t very high up the list, even if Roger would say a glib ‘England needs me’ occasionally.

    In finding a new direction, patriotism and duty could be Bond's thing in the next series, rather than a continuation of Craig's revenge and betrayal motivations. Not a thing wrong with love of country. It's okay to love the UK despite its history and flaws.

    I didn't say there was anything wrong with it, but to me it's just not very Bond. There's a passage in one of the Christopher Wood novels, which attempt to ape Fleming's style but get it wrong, where Bond is looking out of the window at M's office at the 'England he loved', and it just feels totally wrong for Bond. There's aspects of Bond's character I don't mind shifting over time, but changing that would make him feel less like the 007 we know, to me.
    Bond is a guy who works for his country but spends as little time in it as he possibly can. NTTD having him retire to Jamaica felt entirely right for him.

    I'm not sure you've got Craig's Bond right either. His Bond was motivated mostly by duty: he specifically says so on more than one occasion. He is motivated to return to MI6 in Skyfall and NTTD by nothing else but his duty; and even in QoS M gets it wrong and assumes he's acting out of revenge, whereas by the end of the film it's made very clear that it was actually his sense of duty to his job and loyalty to her motivating him and the people around him had misjudged him.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,807
    Yeah I was going to repeat from earlier it's correct to recognize Bond's sense of duty driving him.

    In spite of the bureaucrats and other challenges.

  • Posts: 348
    How about the opening from Permission To Die?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,413
    M_Blaise wrote: »
    How about the opening from Permission To Die?

    What happens in that?
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited July 2023 Posts: 3,789
    M_Blaise wrote: »
    How about the opening from Permission To Die?

    The comics? It's Bond disguised in a Dinner meeting, I think, it would've been interesting, but there's nothing much to it, really, it did remind me of OHMSS Piz Gloria dinner.

    I think I've got the great PTS, maybe we can put it at the same style as NTTD or TSWLM, a two parter scenes.

    Start it at first at introducing the villain a la LALD or TMWTGG, building the potential threat, then cut to a different, separate scene of introducing the new Bond actor (similar to the same style of TLD).

    I don't think it would be that long for a PTS, you have both the Bond villain and the Bond actor itself got introduced, different scenarios of course, separate scenes, but all happened in PTS.

    For example, after the gunbarrel, it would open first at the villain doing his bad plans, a la the opening of LALD/TMWTGG, with building up the villain (of course, Bond wouldn't appear in this), maybe have the villain order some massacre that would've caught the attention of MI6, that's the scene 1.

    Okay, let's proceed to scene 2, and this is now the introduction of the new Bond actor (maybe in the middle of doing a mission or in a training).

    Two different scenes, yet both worked in featuring both the villain, the possible plot, and the Bond actor.
  • edited July 2023 Posts: 3,327
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    As of now, none of the actors had played Bond closer to the books.

    Sure, (with the possible exception of Moore) the rest of them got some little aspects picked up here and there, little details, but none played it as in associating it with the literary/Fleming, none.

    Reading some of the lines and dialogues spoken by the book Bond, it's hard to see any of the Bond actors, and which none of them possibly did, even the actions, it's hard.

    I think the closest to it would be a mix of Sterling Archer and maybe Don Draper, that's how the literary Bond acts (for me).

    The Bond in the novels is multi-faceted, he had many sides and angles, it's hard to apply that on screen, of course, and the only thing that they could do is to pick some of his aspects.

    I'd say, back then, it's pretty successful to have a Bond who's different from the books, even Connery stated at some point that he had read the books and didn't liked the Bond in there, so he created his own version (added to that was Terrence Young also inserting his own version of the character).

    And because of that, the Franchise became iconic and successful, at some point, if Connery did the literary/Book Bond straight in Dr. No, I doubt it would've been successful, the character needed to be sparkled up on screen, more relatable and likeable and iconic.

    I still say Dalton is the closest, particularly in LTK. It helped massively that he was a thespian actor, physically resembled the book Bond, and also pressed hard in adapting the character from the Fleming books. No other actor expressed a strong desire to do this.
  • edited July 2023 Posts: 4,162
    Do we have a thread about who people think the most Fleming-esque version of Bond is? It's a discussion I really like/reading what people have to say, and obviously that's where this discussion has kind of drifted, but I also feel this isn't the right thread for it. Can't find one though.
  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    007HallY wrote: »
    Do we have a thread about who people think the most Fleming-esque version of Bond is? It's a discussion I really like/reading what people have to say, and obviously that's where this discussion has kind of drifted, but I also feel this isn't the right thread for it. Can't find one though.

    There's this...
    https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/1944/the-closer-to-fleming-argument

  • BennyBenny Shaken not stirredAdministrator, Moderator
    Posts: 15,138
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    The Vesper callback is to Fleming as the source.

    To me that's cooked into every actor in the Bond role. Past and forever. The audience is aware or not.

    Good point. Like Tracy in the old continuity. Not every viewer knew what Felix referenced to in LTK, yet it was there.

    It's a shame he didn't make it a bit more explicit:
    "He was married once. His wife was murdered on their wedding day - good thing that's not going to happen to us!"

    I'm not sure if you're trying to be sarcastic, or whether you think that line would work?
    Very lazy and cliched isn't it?
  • edited July 2023 Posts: 4,162
    Benny wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Do we have a thread about who people think the most Fleming-esque version of Bond is? It's a discussion I really like/reading what people have to say, and obviously that's where this discussion has kind of drifted, but I also feel this isn't the right thread for it. Can't find one though.

    There's this...
    https://www.mi6community.com/discussion/1944/the-closer-to-fleming-argument

    Wow, that's an old one. Interesting seeing stuff from this forum pre-SF too.

    It's also more about how the actors played their Bond. Whereas you could probably have a thread which is a more general discussion about how Fleming-esque the different versions of their Bonds are and within the context of their films (so accounting for script, actor's performance, the films themselves etc.) Or perhaps a thread about Bond's patriotism might be an alternative given the discussion.
  • I’m sure Nolan will have something special lined up!
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited July 2023 Posts: 16,413
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    The Vesper callback is to Fleming as the source.

    To me that's cooked into every actor in the Bond role. Past and forever. The audience is aware or not.

    Good point. Like Tracy in the old continuity. Not every viewer knew what Felix referenced to in LTK, yet it was there.

    It's a shame he didn't make it a bit more explicit:
    "He was married once. His wife was murdered on their wedding day - good thing that's not going to happen to us!"

    Man, that's too harsh 😅.

    I'm already glad with what we've got.

    Yes of course, as you rightly spotted, I was just making a joke about how it’s perhaps a bit of a writing fail that they both had their wives murdered on their wedding day. It would indeed have been a bit harsh :D
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited July 2023 Posts: 6,304
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    The Vesper callback is to Fleming as the source.

    To me that's cooked into every actor in the Bond role. Past and forever. The audience is aware or not.

    Good point. Like Tracy in the old continuity. Not every viewer knew what Felix referenced to in LTK, yet it was there.

    It's a shame he didn't make it a bit more explicit:
    "He was married once. His wife was murdered on their wedding day - good thing that's not going to happen to us!"

    Man, that's too harsh 😅.

    I'm already glad with what we've got.

    The funny thing is that even though we never got a proper follow-up to OHMSS in DAF, the producers routinely have tried to give us a version of that follow-up (FYEO, LTK, arguably QoS, NTTD).

    And yet, as fans, we're never truly happy with their efforts.
  • Posts: 1,993
    echo wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    The Vesper callback is to Fleming as the source.

    To me that's cooked into every actor in the Bond role. Past and forever. The audience is aware or not.

    Good point. Like Tracy in the old continuity. Not every viewer knew what Felix referenced to in LTK, yet it was there.

    It's a shame he didn't make it a bit more explicit:
    "He was married once. His wife was murdered on their wedding day - good thing that's not going to happen to us!"

    Man, that's too harsh 😅.

    I'm already glad with what we've got.

    The funny thing is that even though we never got a proper follow-up to OHMSS in DAF, the producers routinely have tried to give us a version of that follow-up (FYEO, LTK, arguably QoS, NTTD).

    And yet, as fans, we're never truly happy with their efforts.

    Perhaps they wanted to avoid any reminder of GL. But what a sorry effort. It has never felt appropriately dealt with. Too bad, because OHMSS remains one of the best films in the entire series. The references in subsequent films always feel half-hearted. A missed opportunity.
  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 1,101
    If i introduced the next Bond, i'd show him in his office, having a drink, then he gets told to report, and leaves his office.
  • Posts: 1,993
    If i introduced the next Bond, i'd show him in his office, having a drink, then he gets told to report, and leaves his office.

    I think that can work for a second or third film, but I'd like to see a riotous opener that is almost a mini adventure in itself. Doesn't even need to tie in with the rest of the film.
    It simply announces this is the new Bond and he's all business.

  • TheSkyfallen06TheSkyfallen06 Buenos Aires, Argentina.
    Posts: 1,101
    CrabKey wrote: »
    If i introduced the next Bond, i'd show him in his office, having a drink, then he gets told to report, and leaves his office.

    I think that can work for a second or third film, but I'd like to see a riotous opener that is almost a mini adventure in itself. Doesn't even need to tie in with the rest of the film.
    It simply announces this is the new Bond and he's all business.

    I actually thought of having the PTS introduce Bond ala Golfinger in the shadows, not showing his face.
    Later on, we have a proper introduction to Bond in a casino scene ala Dr. No.
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