Goldeneye vs. Casino Royale

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  • edited December 2011 Posts: 1,497
    actonsteve wrote:
    You mean Robert Brown? I suspect they swore like troopers. Ex Naval men. Didnt M drink some fiery Moroccan wine.

    Yeah realistically they probably would. But I agree with BAIN. The language cheapens the character a little bit. I like seeing these characters have some refinement in their speach. It just sounds vulgar and cheap when they don't.

    Take Bond's dialogue with Camille where he says: "you infiltrated his organization by <i>having sex with him</i>." It's such a small line, but sounds so vulgar to me. SC, RM, GL, TD or PB Bond to me would have phrased it more like, "you infiltrated his organization by being his lover or mistress or something better than "having sex with him". It just sounds tacky some of the language in the Craig Bond films.

  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    JBFan626 wrote:
    actonsteve wrote:
    You mean Robert Brown? I suspect they swore like troopers. Ex Naval men. Didnt M drink some fiery Moroccan wine.

    Yeah realistically they probably would. But I agree with BAIN. The language cheapens the character a little bit. I like seeing these characters have some refinement in their speach. It just sounds vulgar and cheap when they don't.

    Take Bond's dialogue with Camille where he says: "you infiltrated his organization by <i>having sex with him</i>." It's such a small line, but sounds so vulgar to me. SC, RM, GL, TD or PB Bond to me would have phrased it more like, "you infiltrated his organization by being his lover or mistress or something better than "having sex with him". It just sounds tacky some of the language in the Craig Bond films.

    I think you can get points across without needing to curse. The M in the books never did from what I recall and, on the very few occasions Bond did, we never knew what it was he actually said. Fleming would just say something along the lines of "Bond let out a curse".

    A good example I've just thought of was in DAD.

    Bond: you'd better stay here tonight, keep up the chararde of being lovers.

    Craig Bond: you'd better stay here to keep up the charade we're having sex. ;)
  • Posts: 1,492
    BAIN123 wrote:
    [
    Hmm I think thats Tracy. Played by a better actress, the only Bond girl pre-Craig to tame Bond and who had a death that was IMO even more powerful than Vesper's. .

    But James Bond was already James Bond when he met Tracy. He wasnt the James Bond we know before meeting Vesper. She was instrumental in changing his character - not allowing himself to trust anyone to get close to him again.

    So I would say she was the most important one.

  • Posts: 1,492
    JBFan626 wrote:
    actonsteve wrote:
    You mean Robert Brown? I suspect they swore like troopers. Ex Naval men. Didnt M drink some fiery Moroccan wine.

    Yeah realistically they probably would.

    Well, there you go then....
  • Posts: 1,492
    BAIN123 wrote:
    [. Fleming would just say something along the lines of "Bond let out a curse".

    There you are. He swore in the books.
  • Posts: 11,189
    actonsteve wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    [
    Hmm I think thats Tracy. Played by a better actress, the only Bond girl pre-Craig to tame Bond and who had a death that was IMO even more powerful than Vesper's. .

    But James Bond was already James Bond when he met Tracy. He wasnt the James Bond we know before meeting Vesper. She was instrumental in changing his character - not allowing himself to trust anyone to get close to him again.

    So I would say she was the most important one.

    Perhaps but I still think Isabella is a bit sexier than Eva ;)
  • Posts: 1,497
    actonsteve wrote:
    JBFan626 wrote:
    actonsteve wrote:
    You mean Robert Brown? I suspect they swore like troopers. Ex Naval men. Didnt M drink some fiery Moroccan wine.

    Yeah realistically they probably would.

    Well, there you go then....

    Yes, but we're talking Bond films here. These should be films with style. Sure realistically, Bond also needs to take a bathroom break, fill up the gas tank in the old Aston Martin, play some sudoku on his Sony Ericsen to pass the time.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    actonsteve wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    [. Fleming would just say something along the lines of "Bond let out a curse".

    There you are. He swore in the books.

    Would Fleming have wanted M, a man of power, to openly swear though? I don't know. I may be wrong but I don't recall the character doing so.
  • Posts: 1,492
    BAIN123 wrote:
    [
    Perhaps but I still think Isabella is a bit sexier than Eva ;)

    Fair enough. I like you Bains you see both sides.

    Also, doesnt Dalton Bond swear in LTK "Turn off the bloody machine!"
  • Posts: 1,492
    JBFan626 wrote:
    [

    Yes, but we're talking Bond films here. These should be films with style. Sure realistically, Bond also needs to take a bathroom break, fill up the gas tank in the old Aston Martin, play some sudoku on his Sony Ericsen to pass the time.

    Well, we know he dangles from bathrooms watching other people on the toilet.

  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    actonsteve wrote:
    JBFan626 wrote:
    [

    Yes, but we're talking Bond films here. These should be films with style. Sure realistically, Bond also needs to take a bathroom break, fill up the gas tank in the old Aston Martin, play some sudoku on his Sony Ericsen to pass the time.

    Well, we know he dangles from bathrooms watching other people on the toilet.

    We didn't see him wince at the turd that soldier must have left.
    actonsteve wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    [
    Perhaps but I still think Isabella is a bit sexier than Eva ;)

    Fair enough. I like you Bains you see both sides.

    Also, doesnt Dalton Bond swear in LTK "Turn off the bloody machine!"

    Indeed he does. Twice in fact 'Get me out of these bloody things' and 'switch the bloody machine off'. Thats not too bad but he also does it with 'watch the birdie you bastard' - a line that I'm not sure suits Bond.

    I don't think M ever did though. He didn't need to.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 1,778
    Both Connery and Dalton cursed quite a bit. Connery called Tiffany Case a bitch but no here is complaining about that. And I think Dalton cursed more than Craig. Telling that MI6 agent to "piss off" in LTK hasn't been mentioned yet.

    Craig's Bond is more to the point and can speak like a normal human being from time to time. That's why a found both Craig and Dalton to be refreshing. They live in the real world.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Actually I've just remembered Bond also used 'bitch' a few times in the books.

    I still don't think M did though.
  • Judi Dench's M is a completely different character. For one thing she's a woman. I never had a problem with her cursing. Again her relationship with Craig's Bond has a totally different dynamic as opposed to Brosnan's Bond.
  • Posts: 1,492
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Actually I've just remembered Bond also used 'bitch' a few times in the books.

    Craig Bond famously used it in the films.

    "The bitch is dead now..."

  • Posts: 1,492
    Judi Dench's M is a completely different character. For one thing she's a woman. I never had a problem with her cursing. Again her relationship with Craig's Bond has a totally different dynamic as opposed to Brosnan's Bond.

    Agreed.

    In fact "Christ, I miss the cold war.." is a good humoured line. Which the humour wouldnt work without the curse.

  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Judi Dench's M is a completely different character. For one thing she's a woman. I never had a problem with her cursing. Again her relationship with Craig's Bond has a totally different dynamic as opposed to Brosnan's Bond.

    True but I sometimes just think her cold icey stare with Brosnan is a bit more effective. She seemed to have more faith in Brosnan's Bond come to think of it.

    I sound like I don't like Judy :s. I do but I just find her a bit more effective pre-Craig.

    I'd forgotten about that 'Christ I miss the cold war line'. Yeah that was good and is perhaps an exception - I remember it got a big laugh in the cinema.
  • Posts: 1,497
    actonsteve wrote:
    Well, we know he dangles from bathrooms watching other people on the toilet.

    Ha! Touche
  • BAIN123 wrote:
    Judi Dench's M is a completely different character. For one thing she's a woman. I never had a problem with her cursing. Again her relationship with Craig's Bond has a totally different dynamic as opposed to Brosnan's Bond.

    True but I sometimes just think her cold icey stare with Brosnan is a bit more effective. She seemed to have more faith in Brosnan's Bond come to think of it.

    I sound like I don't like Judy :s. I do but I just find her a bit more effective pre-Craig.

    I'd forgotten about that 'Christ I miss the cold war line'. Yeah that was good and is perhaps an exception - I remember it got a big laugh in the cinema.

    Ofcourse she had more faith in Brosnan's Bond. That's precisely my point. Brosnan's Bond was 007 for years while she was recently promoted as M. There had to be some greater level of respect. With Craig it's the exact oppisite. Bond's the one who just got promoted and has something to prove. He has to earn her trust.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 11,189
    Good point. It's just that this 'trust' stuff just feels a bit tedious though sometimes. Just IMO.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Okay, time to give my 2 cents on the swearing thing:

    Would you really (DC007 is exempt from this, because he'd probably say yes) want Bond or any other character running around shouting "Fiddlesticks!" when something unexpected happens, or the bad guy shaking his fist and shouting "Curses!" when Bond foils the plan? In every Bond film I've ever seen, the swearing is done at just the right moments, and never just for the sake of swearing.
  • BAIN123 wrote:
    Good point. It's just that this 'trust' stuff just feels a bit tedious though sometimes. Just IMO.

    Maybe to some extent but I think it makes for a more interesting dynamic. And we have to remember in CR and QOS we're dealing with a Bond who's new at his job. And after all the stuff he pulls so early on would it be logical for M to trust someone who seemingly such a loose cannon?

    I have a feeling Skyfall will acknowledge the susequent years since QOS and the Bond/M relationship will be a more traditional one.
  • Posts: 4,762
    BAIN123 wrote:
    actonsteve wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    . I know I'm probably in the minority but I'd take Natalya over Vesper easily. Natalya to me just has a gutsy attitude and a real survival instinct that we don't see that much of in Vesper. Also, Vesper doesn't come in until almost an hour into CR.

    .

    I thought Natalya was an average Bond girl. Once she gets to the Cuban facility her story is over. She does the usual running around, dodging explosians, popping up with a gun...but other then that she is pretty forgettable.

    Vesper IS Casino Royale. She is the reason why he is the way he is. She is the catalyst which makes James Bond James Bond.

    Possibly the most important Bond girl of the franchise.

    Hmm I think thats Tracy. Played by a better actress, the only Bond girl pre-Craig to tame Bond and who had a death that was IMO even more powerful than Vesper's. By the time we hear she's a traitor we know her fate.

    I like Vesper but I just prefer Natalya. She saves Bond at the end and is partly responsible for stopping the Goldeneye.

    Robert Brown probably did curse but we didn't see it. They got their points across without having to do so.

    Agree wholeheartedly on Natalya! She is a fantastic Bond girl, and definitely better than Vesper! And I also agree 100% on the whole cursing issue. It's not needed and the older movies of the past understand this better than today's, where cursing is pretty much unavoidable in any movie nowadays. It doesn't make the dialogue any better, and in fact makes it worse for those who just want to enjoy a good movie without cringing at every other word.
  • Posts: 1,497
    Just wondering, is the word "bloody" really that bad in the U.K.? Over here in the States, when we hear "bloody" in a film we just think it sounds funny and characteristically British. Would you be disciplined by your teacher if you said "bloody" in class?

    Maybe it's on the level of banal phrases like: "Crappy" "friggin" "That sucks" "Douche" and other low denominator trashy words, but not quite swearing per se? Fill me in.
  • CR is probably the better film, but brosnan is the better bond.

    I do like goldeneyes action sequences though, and the characters are more intresting and memorable than CR. Trevalyn and le cheifre are just as good villians as eachother.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 12,837
    JBFan626 wrote:
    Just wondering, is the word "bloody" really that bad in the U.K.? Over here in the States, when we hear "bloody" in a film we just think it sounds funny and characteristically British. Would you be disciplined by your teacher if you said "bloody" in class?

    Maybe it's on the level of banal phrases like: "Crappy" "friggin" "That sucks" "Douche" and other low denominator trashy words, but not quite swearing per se? Fill me in.

    Its a worse word over here than in america, but not really that bad. It is swearing though so its a bit above crappy n douche.
  • actonsteve wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    [
    Perhaps but I still think Isabella is a bit sexier than Eva ;)

    Fair enough. I like you Bains you see both sides.

    Also, doesnt Dalton Bond swear in LTK "Turn off the bloody machine!"

    he does, but LTK is higher rated so you should expect some swearing
  • So I guess we can agree that CR won the poll, as it should, with twice as many votes as GE. Sorry for all my Brosnan bashing but to me even his best film wasn't all that impressive.
  • Posts: 11,189
    So I guess we can agree that CR won the poll, as it should, with twice as many votes as GE. Sorry for all my Brosnan bashing but to me even his best film wasn't all that impressive.

    I know it's probably difficult for you to comprehend but, while I think Royale is probably the better film overall, I'll always have a bit of sentiment for GE as it was the first Bond film I saw and is EASILY the one I've seen the most.
  • edited December 2011 Posts: 1,778
    It was one of the first ones I saw too. But my tastes have matured a bit since I was 10 ;)

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