Goldeneye vs. Casino Royale

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  • Posts: 4,762
    actonsteve wrote:
    00Beast wrote:
    [
    Thanks Dimi! I was reading some of the other posts that were ripping GE, and I knew it had to stop!

    Tut. Tut. No film of the franchise should be above criticism. No film should be a sacred cow. Even the mighty Goldfnger, untouchable for so long, has its share of critics.

    Which is the way it should be. If you love your film then you must recognise it has problems as well as strengths. Argue your case - but it is never immune,

    I do realize that even GoldenEye has some weaknesses, because any movie does. However, it is the one Bond movie that is very difficult for me to find anything wrong with, whether anyone else can or not. I do not think it is a sacred cow or anything to behold with glory, because I realize that is just a movie. Nonetheless, I heavily enjoy GoldenEye and think that it is the best of the best, and that's just all right with me. Just because I wanted to give out my two cents about GoldenEye and why I find it to be #1 doesn't mean I'm opposed to others' thoughts.
  • I'm really happy to see all the participation this subject got. It's been by far my biggest thread.

    Honestly when I first started this thread it was to point out how CR is and is widely considered a better film then GE in almost every way. Who would've thunk thatt this thread would be a channel for Brosnan fans to unite. Anyway I'm happy the way it turned out. I love a good debate. ;)
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited December 2011 Posts: 12,480
    Yes, I do really like Goldeneye and Brosnan, especially in that film.
    But CR is a great Bond movie, imo. Looking at them as both relaunches, I think we need to remember they are in two really different eras and different styles.
  • Casino Royale feels like a more likely and relatable story. It's not the usual "the world is going to blow up" and its on a smaller scale than GoldenEye.I find CR also does a good job of installing emotion into the movie which is something that keeps me interested. CR is better in my opinion.
  • While I really like Goldeneye and like the Brosnan films overall for what they are, CR is superior in my opinion. I recently rewatched the film the other night and was taken aback by just how good it is. Especially the Miami Airport sequence, which I remember some people complained about, which has echos of the truck chase from Raiders of the Lost Ark. It's just an exciting well shot sequence that is the classic example of a great Bond action. Still I like a lot of Goldeneye and its probably the best of the Brosnan films and while I remember hating the score when I first saw it, now I kinda of like it especially the romantic cues. The tank chase is still my favorite sequence in the film.
  • I think that the CR casino scenes are some of the best in film, certainly in the series. The tension created even without action is just incredible in those scenes.
  • Don't forget to vote gentlemen.
  • 4EverBonded4EverBonded the Ballrooms of Mars
    edited December 2011 Posts: 12,480
    My vote: tough one and I keep changing my mind: CR
  • CR, but brosnan is a better bond imo

    Too right
  • SharkShark Banned
    edited December 2011 Posts: 348
    You can't possibly believe Eric Serra's abomination of a score is any good in a Bond movie.

    It's easily one of the best thing to come out of the Brozza era. Shame he got stuck with that dullard from Luton for 3 films.
    Bond scores are supposed to be lush, exotic, and exciting not boring, droll, and repetitive.

    *ahem.*





    'Nuff said.
    David Arnold gets alot of hate but atleast he understands the sound of Bond.

    Then he should write a thesis on Bond music for a university degree. The key thing is, he doesn't bring much new to the table. With the exception of QOS, his scores are for the most part leeching off John Barry's great legacy. I'd rather hear someone completely ignorant of Bond music bring an utterly unique, powerful score that fits the film like a glove, rather than have another Barry wannabe go through the motions.
    And the worst part about it was that Serra was all arrogant about it, saying in an interview that he didn't wanna use the Bond theme or incorporate a Barry-like theme because he didn't think much of them.

    I don't know where you pulled that quote for, since from everything I've heard and read, Serra was a big fan of Barry's scores as kid. You can a lot of that in the lush orchestral moments of the score.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Shark wrote:
    You can't possibly believe Eric Serra's abomination of a score is any good in a Bond movie.

    It's easily one of the best thing to come out of the Brozza era. Shame he got stuck with that dullard from Luton for 3 films.
    Bond scores are supposed to be lush, exotic, and exciting not boring, droll, and repetitive.

    *ahem.*





    'Nuff said.
    David Arnold gets alot of hate but atleast he understands the sound of Bond.

    Then he should write a thesis on Bond music for a university degree. The key thing is, he doesn't bring much new to the table. With the exception of QOS, his scores are for the most part leeching off John Barry's great legacy. I'd rather hear someone completely ignorant of Bond music bring an utterly unique, powerful score that fits the film like a glove, rather than have another Barry wannabe go through the motions.
    And the worst part about it was that Serra was all arrogant about it, saying in an interview that he didn't wanna use the Bond theme or incorporate a Barry-like theme because he didn't think much of them.

    I don't know where you pulled that quote for, since from everything I've heard and read, Serra was a big fan of Barry's scores as kid. You can a lot of that in the lush orchestral moments of the score.

    Those quotes from me are completely wrong. I never said them (mainly because I couldn't tell you the name of GoldenEye's composer if I'd just learned it). Shouldn't they belong to DoubleOhhSeven?
  • SharkShark Banned
    Posts: 348
    Shark wrote:
    You can't possibly believe Eric Serra's abomination of a score is any good in a Bond movie.

    It's easily one of the best thing to come out of the Brozza era. Shame he got stuck with that dullard from Luton for 3 films.
    Bond scores are supposed to be lush, exotic, and exciting not boring, droll, and repetitive.

    *ahem.*





    'Nuff said.
    David Arnold gets alot of hate but atleast he understands the sound of Bond.

    Then he should write a thesis on Bond music for a university degree. The key thing is, he doesn't bring much new to the table. With the exception of QOS, his scores are for the most part leeching off John Barry's great legacy. I'd rather hear someone completely ignorant of Bond music bring an utterly unique, powerful score that fits the film like a glove, rather than have another Barry wannabe go through the motions.
    And the worst part about it was that Serra was all arrogant about it, saying in an interview that he didn't wanna use the Bond theme or incorporate a Barry-like theme because he didn't think much of them.

    I don't know where you pulled that quote for, since from everything I've heard and read, Serra was a big fan of Barry's scores as kid. You can a lot of that in the lush orchestral moments of the score.

    Those quotes from me are completely wrong. I never said them (mainly because I couldn't tell you the name of GoldenEye's composer if I'd just learned it). Shouldn't they belong to DoubleOhhSeven?

    Yes, sorry. I'm still not used to having no quote button in the posting field. Means I have to copy and and paste the tags, which sometimes goes wrong.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    That's okay. You do know there's a quote button at the top of every post, right?
  • @Shark those 2 examples are depressing and have no place being in a Bond film. They sound more like something from a Victorian drama about young love than a film about a womanizing super spy. Im not the only one who thinks this. There was a reason Serra was not asked back because there were times it seemed he didn't know what movie he was scoring. IMO easily the worst Bond soundtrack. Yes even worse than those disco scores from TSWLM and FYEO. Atleast they were lively and hip at the time.
  • edited January 2012 Posts: 11,425
    The disco elements to the soundtrack in TSWLM are brilliant. Goes perfectly with the look and feel of the film. It's a total cheese fest but that's why we love it. Who can fault the PTS - including music - for instance? Not me. Hamlisch did a great job of filling in for Bazza.
  • edited January 2012 Posts: 11,189
    @Shark those 2 examples are depressing and have no place being in a Bond film. They sound more like something from a Victorian drama about young love than a film about a womanizing super spy. Im not the only one who thinks this. There was a reason Serra was not asked back because there were times it seemed he didn't know what movie he was scoring. IMO easily the worst Bond soundtrack. Yes even worse than those disco scores from TSWLM and FYEO. Atleast they were lively and hip at the time.

    Utter nonsense. They are lovely pieces - especially the OST 4th and fit their respective scenes perfectly. They always put a smile on my face when I listen to them. and I'm not the only one who likes the score either.
  • SharkShark Banned
    edited January 2012 Posts: 348
    @Shark those 2 examples are depressing and have no place being in a Bond film. They sound more like something from a Victorian drama about young love than a film about a womanizing super spy.

    I call BS. You could say the same about several of Barry's later scores. There was a always a melancholy, elegiac vibe to his music that Arnold never captured. Mourning a dying world. Out of all the successors to Barry, Serra came to the closest to capturing that feeling.
    There was a reason Serra was not asked

    No, that's because infantile fans like you bitched about it, and then you got David bleeding Arnold in return. As ye sow, so shall ye reap.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    Had Arnold came on for the one film, it would have been OK in my opinion. A fresh, and no too bad score and one that was very different to the one before. Each film's director should have been given their say for the music department. Instead EON ride the average-Arnold bandwagon all the way to 2008, or even 2012. No wonder this year could be the end of the world!
  • SharkShark Banned
    Posts: 348
    Samuel001 wrote:
    No wonder this year could be the end of the world!

    Indeed, and Arnold's scoring it!

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/cultural-olympiad/8332882/James-Bond-composer-David-Arnold-will-be-2012-musical-director.html
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    edited January 2012 Posts: 13,355
    Oh yeah, I forgot about that! Maybe the BBC should not have plugged the Olympics straight after midnight afterall. ;)

    I thought a Skyfall score from Arnold would be bad enough and just about do it. It appears not.
  • edited January 2012 Posts: 1,778
    Shark wrote:
    No, that's because infantile fans like you bitched about it, and then you got David bleeding Arnold in return. As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

    And we were right. And it wasn't a small amount of Barry purists, the score was simply badly recieved and has aged even worse. I'd take Arnold's generic scores over pure crap any day.

    And for the record I loved Michael Kamen and George Martin's scores for LTK and LALD. I don't think Barry was the only man who could score a Bond film but Serra was simply incompetant in that field. It sounded like he was just recycling parts of it from Leon The Professional.
  • edited January 2012 Posts: 11,189
    I don't really have a problem with either Eric Serra or David Arnold. Some of the fanboys are never happy :(

    You get something that sounds different people whine, you get something that sounds similar to whats been gone on before people whine. Fans bitched about Serra, they got David Arnold and now they want him to go too.

    I think the Serra score gives GE it's own identity and I'd happily listen to (most of) it again. The Goldeneye Overture is quite a cool track - stop moaning!

    Arnold's also had his fair share of romantic, melodramatic tunes anyway.



  • I see what you mean @Bain123 but Im getting the impression that @Shark thinks he's a more intelligent fan because he likes something most people think sucks. I guess us poor simpletons simply can't understand Serra's brillance but @Shark in his infinate wisdom can. Good for him. 8-|
  • edited January 2012 Posts: 267
    Goldeneye is the perfect over the top Bond movie IMO. It keeps a serious tone throughout, but has a fantastical plot. It's a totally different film than CR, but both are in my top 5.

    I've always felt like Brosnan's movies decreased in quality with each film, but that whole era was a huge missed opportunity. They never built off of the foundation GE laid for Brosnan's era, instead the scripts got more ridiculous and the casting got worse and worse. Like with TND, I think it would've been an infinitely better movie had extended the first half far longer, cut out Wai Lin and the stealth boat scene and focused more on Bond and Paris - they just had to have the "equal" Bond girl and huge explosive finale on a stealth boat when a scene like Paris Carver's death would've served as a perfect scene as the climax of the movie.

    I really liked QoS, but it was a huge step down from CR - I just hope that they can step it back up with Skyfall.

    Edit: And in terms of the music - I've always loved Serra's score. It fit the Russian scenes and tone of the movie really well.
  • 002002
    Posts: 581
    Goldeneye for the win Casino Royale is good but when you look at it- Casino Roylae is really padded out especially with the poker scenes

    Goldeneye feels more unique and gritty ...Casino has glamour but there is a lot of deleated scenes from CR- especially with the love scene where craig and eva have sex in the water and that she is actually nude..why did they cut that out?



    (its at 1:05)

    i love both films but goldeneye has a special place in my heart
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    edited January 2012 Posts: 24,183
    002 wrote:
    she is actually nude..why did they cut that out?

    There's plenty of Eva Green nudity spread all over the Internet. ;-)

    Either way, I don't think they made a mistake cutting that out. The love montage between Montenegro and Venice lasted long enough IMO. An extra few shots of aquatic love making wouldn't have hurt the film but I doubt they would have added anything substantial.

  • SharkShark Banned
    edited January 2012 Posts: 348
    It sounded like he was just recycling parts of it from Leon The Professional.

    It's not like Barry and Herrmann never recycled their own scores.
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Arnold's also had his fair share of romantic, melodramatic tunes anyway.

    Sure, but they sound more Hollywood to my ears, rather than Barry. That Paris/Bond love scene music always reminded me of Elmer Bernstein's parody score for AIRPLANE!
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    Shark wrote:
    That Paris/Bond love scene music always reminded me of Elmer Bernstein's parody score for AIRPLANE!

    It instantly reminded me of Arnold's score for ID4, as did a couple more tracks on the TND soundtrack / score when I first heard it.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Good point @Shark. The theme "007 Takes the Lektor was recycled several times throughout the years.

    Maybe Arnold should do a new version for SF ;)
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,183
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Good point @Shark. The theme "007 Takes the Lektor was recycled several times throughout the years.

    Maybe Arnold should do a new version for SF ;)

    Maybe Arnold should not do SF at all. ;-)

    While I never resort to bashing the man, incidentally listening to one of his Bond scores right now, I do believe that better composers are active today, composers who could easily deliver the best Bond score since TLD. Arnold's had no less than five opportunities to convince us and his output ranges from rather poor to mediocre at best, IMO. Well I for one think that Bond deserves better than mediocre.

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