Does NO TIME TO DIE have the best ending in the franchise?

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  • Jordo007Jordo007 Merseyside
    edited July 2023 Posts: 2,641
    Before seeing NTTD, and realising how crucial a part Madeline would play in the story, I really wanted Bond to end the film in a dingy with Paloma.

    As ridiculous as it sounds, it would have been almost like Bond and the series coming full circle.
    The ending of Dr No mirrored in No Time To Die
  • Posts: 1,985
    @Jordo007 With those endings one didn't have to think about how Bond would return because he was killed.
  • SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷SecretAgentMan⁰⁰⁷ Lekki, Lagos, Nigeria
    edited July 2023 Posts: 2,016
    Jordo007 wrote: »
    Before seeing NTTD, and realising how crucial a part Madeline would play in the story, I really wanted Bond to end the film in a dingy with Paloma.

    As ridiculous as it sounds, it would have been almost like Bond and the series coming full circle.
    The ending of Dr No mirrored in No Time To Die

    I couldn't agree more. Nothing wrong with that ending. Even a dead-serious Bond like Dalton had: "You didn't think I'd miss this performance, did you?" & "Why don't you wait until you're asked?"...."So why don't you ask me?"
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    SIS_HQ wrote: »
    No Time To Die was a film with many interesting concepts but failed in execution.

    Like what I've said, I really liked the concept of Bond dying, it's unique, yet risky and interesting, the problem perhaps is the execution, or how the film handled it.

    It doesn't helped that the romance of Bond and Madeleine was just meant to reference OHMSS instead of creating an original romance, the use of the We Have All The Time In The World theme for example, it felt cheap and lazy and removed any of the supposed genuinity of the Bond and Madeleine romance, I mean I would've possibly bought the relationship had they created a new and original theme song for Bond and Madeleine instead of stealing OHMSS and instead made people reminded of Bond and Tracy romance instead of the romance of Bond and Madeleine.

    Look at Bond's relationship with Kara for example, why I bought it? Because their romance was given originality, their own identity, so instead of Kara coming off as another Tracy, she comes off as another lover, a second chance for Bond to fall in love again (If There Was A Man really worked as their love song).

    So, instead of me feeling for the death of Bond because of investing for his relationship with Madeleine, it reminded me of OHMSS instead and realized that the film failed in handling the ending.

    There's no originality and it's already an anomaly in what they're supposed to show or what they're aiming.

    If they've gave the romance of Bond and Madeleine some originality instead of relying on the past romances, it would've worked.

    Because for me, that death of Bond was a symbol of Bond's love for Madeleine (sure, there's the daughter, but the final scenes before him getting killed already closed the envelope that it's still because of his love for Madeleine).

    Not even the daughter thing was given emphasis other than to act as a shock to audience, even Bond doesn't have that much time with his daughter, there's no time of them together, the daughter thing was just a foil, it's not natural there in the narrative, if one may remove the daughter thing, nothing in the narrative or the story would've changed, so again, interesting concept but failed execution.

    Second, the death of Felix Leiter, again, good concept, but failed in execution again, why? Because it brought no weight, it carried no weight at all, because the relationship between Bond and Felix wasn't fleshed out enough, it's been years since we've seen Jeffrey Wright.

    In Licence To Kill, the near death experience of Felix was really felt because his relationship with Bond was at least developed, we've seen him more in so many films in the past, how many films he'd appeared in before LTK? Many.

    Here, he made an appearance in CR, then he's almost like a guest or cameo in QoS, he'd just appeared in that bar then he's gone (but you can correct me here as it's been a long time since I've seen the film), then since 2008, it's been 3 or 4 years, and he didn't appeared in Skyfall, then another 2 years in SPECTRE (he didn't appeared again), then another 5 years before he appeared again in NTTD but he appeared there just to get killed.

    And yes, Nomi, again, the concept behind the character was interesting, but failed in execution, again.

    I liked Nomi, and I think Lashana Lynch was fine in the role (she did her best), but she's underused, she's wasted, I liked the idea of having a replacement for Bond's number, it's interesting (though, I wished the film explored that more), but, she's not used well in the film, she's just there like a prop.

    This film had many interesting concepts but failed in execution.
    Tbh all I'm reading here is 'i don't like it so it failed'.
    A child is (normally) the epithany of the love of two people, as is referenced by Bond when he tells Madeleine she made the most wonderful thing in. The world. It's not there to shock the audience, it's there to give Bond reason to make the final decision, protect his family for always, as in his blood is the inherent death of his child. A small cut could be her death.
    Now, personally I don't like the unlimited aspect of this smart blood, but that's a different problem.

    Bond greets Felix as an old friend, they have some banter together, Felix convinces Bond to come back into the game. So how does it not carry any weight? Bond is losing everything he cared for in this film (his job, friends, even his number), except for beeing able to safe his own family (and getting his nr back).

    How is Nomi underused? She's a pivotal part of every part of the film except for the start.

    I find the nr. Thing funny, but why would you want to explore that more? What does that add, getting your designated staff number back?

    Btw iirc Fleming does mention a 0011, the numbers are randomly chosen and do not follow a pattern, which fits with mi6 culture in the early years after the war.

    Okay, it's understandable, I do get it, after all, it's subjective.

    But again, I liked the concept of those things, those were the concepts, what I'm talking in there is the shortcomings of the film in how they've did those.

    Regarding the death of Felix Leiter, still, it still doesn't carry any weight because it's not developed well, okay, there's Felix who convinced Bond to come back into the game, but the thing is, we've never seen this version of Felix hanging out with Bond more to prove it.
    Man, I wish Felix Leiter appeared in SPECTRE or in Skyfall, so there's that fleshing out more of their relationship.

    Compared it to the Classic Felix Leiter of the old Bond films, he appeared in many Bond films prior to LTK just to develop his relationship with Bond more, and seeing them hanging out with each other more than once, so by the time LTK happened and Felix Leiter's life was put in danger, it's felt because we knew how fleshed out their relationship was, we knew how long it was, because we've really seen them together so many times, not just by occasion.

    So, it's a good concept of like what you've said, having Bond lost all of what he cares about, but the problem is all of what he cared about had been given a brief and small time to be with him, yes, even his daughter.

    The problem was Bond didn't have any time with his daughter, aside from him peeling an apple and cooking a pancake for his daughter, that's all, had they given the chance to have Bond at least talk to his daughter on the radio in that ending, I think that would've added a lot more weight.

    And there's that question of is she or not? kind of thing of whether she's Bond's daughter or not, because of Madeleine's denial, so how could it carry any weight?

    The audience (I'm with them) kept guessing at whether Mathilde is Bond's daughter or not, then she's revealed to be by giving a hint in the ending which made us all "okay, so she is", so where's the emotional weight? It's not felt, because it's been stolen by this never ending guesses whether Mathilde was Bond's daughter or not.

    And again, if it is, there's none still, because we're not given much more of Bond's moments with her.

    Now, that ending was just down to Bond and Madeleine, with the daughter on the background.

    Again, we cared about the concept, it's felt throughout the film, but the problem was how we've actually seen it in the film.

    About Nomi, I know it, she's a pivotal part of the film, it's in there, but the thing is, she's not given much due, her character failed in the Norway sequence, she's absent for the whole action and arrived late.

    Sure, to enhance the familial relationship of Bond to Madeleine and Mathilde, but sure, they could find a way to include Nomi in the action without ruining that moment of Bond with his family.

    Her character made sense in the first half, but in the second half, she suddenly turned into a bit of redundancy (I still liked Nomi), but I wish she'd been utilised a lot more in the second act.

    For its very long runtime, these things aren't that fleshed out.

    Well, the real problem lies in the fact that they put so many concepts in, that together with all the necessary action (hey, spies kill a lot!) the film, they ran out of time.
    In OHMSS, he finds his love, marries and she gets killed.
    In LTK, his friend is maimed and his friends' wife dies (allthough Felix apparently was either high on drugs or not thát much in love) and he goes for revenge.
    QoS is alla bout Bond beeing so professional he is NOT going to avenge, although everybody around him thinks he is.

    And then, NTTD:
    - Blofeld need nearly kills Bond, Bond goes on to destroy Blofeld.
    - Bond feels betrayed by his girlfriend and 8 years later finds out he has a daughter.
    - He loses his best friend on a mission.
    - He gets 'contaminated' and becomes a danger to his family
    - He loses his job, and regains it after proofing his boss wrong

    So, that's at least 5 films in one. So I understand that you felt left with half-stories, because there were too many. I don't think it was because the plot parts didn't get enough attentino in the film, but the attention was taken away by the sheer amount of stories that were beeing told.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited July 2023 Posts: 3,152
    007HallY wrote: »
    To be entirely fair Rotten can be a bit of old git and likely would have hated any film/show about the Sex Pistols.
    Yeah, that's inarguable, 007HallY. :D It was Boyle's barely concealed glee that he'd antagonised Rotten that was dubious. Saying that he didn't want Rotten to like it, he wanted him to attack it? Imagine if he'd directed a Bond film and promoted it by saying that he wanted Fleming to hate it... Can't help thinking that aspects of Boyle and Hodge's film would've been wilfully iconoclastic. I think we dodged a bullet, tbh.
  • I saw the movie three times. Not because I enjoyed it but simply trying to make sense of what had been presented before the eyes. And each time we left the theater confused, disappointed and kind of incredulous as to what they had put together. First reaction, hell they've killed off Fleming's creation. 60 years of film reference reduced to a bizarre mess. As a long time enthusiast it were just a hard slap in the face, an insult almost.

    not sure this is the right section for a proper review of it all but somehow wouldn't want to take half an hour telling it as we recall. If James Bond is (now) deceased and no more, what they gonna do? Re-boot the franchise again ? Seen some surprises at the movies but killing off one of the favorite icons of the screen, hell they went just a little too far in some estimation.

    I know it were Craig's last outing but to kill off the character, even now it just doesn't total in any capacity. The child angle just didn't sit right also, and 007 is well, (now) not 007... Lousy way to end Craig's tenure. Such a fine (eventual) portrayal of the Fleming idea really deserved better.
  • Posts: 1,985
    There are plenty who say, "Given the story, how else could it end?" Fair point, but that didn't have to be the story. I believe Craig was a great Bond. He certainly went out with a bang. But for me it's not one of those great Bond moments. Perhaps because Craig wanted it, it seems to exist outside of the film, as if the scene has less to do with Bond than the actor playing him.
  • Posts: 3,327
    CrabKey wrote: »
    There are plenty who say, "Given the story, how else could it end?" Fair point, but that didn't have to be the story. I believe Craig was a great Bond. He certainly went out with a bang. But for me it's not one of those great Bond moments. Perhaps because Craig wanted it, it seems to exist outside of the film, as if the scene has less to do with Bond than the actor playing him.

    There are many scenes in NTTD where Craig's acting took me out of the moment. The Bond v Blofeld scene, Craig's acting is abysmal here (far worse than anything Lazenby did in OHMSS). He is basically playing himself and not Bond anymore.

    The 2 handers with M aren't that great either. And yes, the death scene at the end feels very contrived, written just to give Craig one last Bond movie outing.

    Right now I have NTTD at the very bottom of my list rankings. It really is awful. That spot was reserved only for DAD, and I never thought it would be beaten.....until now. I really thought the producers would never stoop so low to create such a mess of a Bond movie ever again. Sadly I was proven wrong.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    edited August 2023 Posts: 16,351
    Him flying off the rails at Madeline in the pts was probably the worst acting I've seen Craig do.

    "OWDIDTHEYKNOWIWASEAR!?!"

    The "Die Blofeld, Die" scene was just as bad.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,789
    CrabKey wrote: »
    There are plenty who say, "Given the story, how else could it end?" Fair point, but that didn't have to be the story. I believe Craig was a great Bond. He certainly went out with a bang. But for me it's not one of those great Bond moments. Perhaps because Craig wanted it, it seems to exist outside of the film, as if the scene has less to do with Bond than the actor playing him.

    There are many scenes in NTTD where Craig's acting took me out of the moment. The Bond v Blofeld scene, Craig's acting is abysmal here (far worse than anything Lazenby did in OHMSS). He is basically playing himself and not Bond anymore.

    The 2 handers with M aren't that great either. And yes, the death scene at the end feels very contrived, written just to give Craig one last Bond movie outing.

    Right now I have NTTD at the very bottom of my list rankings. It really is awful. That spot was reserved only for DAD, and I never thought it would be beaten.....until now. I really thought the producers would never stoop so low to create such a mess of a Bond movie ever again. Sadly I was proven wrong.

    Indeed, Craig was just acting like himself, it's even more 'un-Bond' than anything what Moore had done in his tenure (Lazenby still acted like Bond, at least, I still see the Bond character).

    One of the worst acting done by a Bond actor, anything in that movie was basically Craig playing like himself, and it's really inconsistent, I don't know what Craig was supposed to trying to do in this film, it's more like an Action film starring Craig than a Bond film.

    It's in my bottom 5 or maybe even bottom 3 (just lucky to be edged out by both TMWTGG and DAF), so NTTD should be thankful for the existence of those two mentioned films.

    I can even say that SPECTRE (for all its flaws) was still better than this.

    Contrived ending (it's a film that's written backwards with his death first, then wrote the plot backwards), it's a film that didn't know what it was trying to do.
    It's overstuffed with so many characters and subplots that were undercooked or not developed.
    Disjointed plot and storyline (it's like they have different ideas and they've all patched it one film).
    Overcomplicated sequel to a film that's already given an ending before it (SP had been given a proper ending, so I don't know what knots that NTTD was trying to tie in).
    It's a film that's unnecessary and no one needed or asked for.
    Too many plot conveniences that literally didn't makes sense, too many fan services that also didn't makes sense and not utilized well.
    It's like they've made a cake and eat it too kind of thing.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2023 Posts: 16,383
    CrabKey wrote: »
    There are plenty who say, "Given the story, how else could it end?" Fair point, but that didn't have to be the story. I believe Craig was a great Bond. He certainly went out with a bang. But for me it's not one of those great Bond moments. Perhaps because Craig wanted it, it seems to exist outside of the film, as if the scene has less to do with Bond than the actor playing him.

    People really get fixated on Craig having the idea and thinking it's all a massive ego thing; people who make films do it to make good stories, not for their egos. And I'd say it's also a question of what other ending was left for his Bond? We'd done faked death, we'd done driving off into the sunset, we'd done retirement, we'd done coming back to MI6... what new and interesting ending was there for him?
    Murdock wrote: »
    Him flying off the rails at Madeline in the pts was probably the worst acting I've seen Craig do.

    "OWDIDTHEYKNOWIWASEAR!?!"

    The "Die Blofeld, Die" scene was just as bad.

    Must admit I'm really puzzled by this. In what way is it bad?
  • Posts: 4,139
    I wouldn't say Craig's acting was bad in either of those scenes (I'd argue much of his performance during the whole PTS is some of the best of his tenure). It's just that the acting choices during the interrogation scene are a bit unusual when you take his Bond into account and, one could say, different. So one may think it's not a particularly Bondian performance (although you can easily argue it's fine for his Bond in that movie) but that's not to say it's a bad performance.

    Personally I think he could have dialled it back. I also don't think the music starting as Bond says 'Die Blofeld, die' nor the way that scene is written helps.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    Posts: 3,152
    And he did call him 'Blofield' at one point...
    But if Craig had been playing himself, he'd've been effing and blinding every tenth word, wouldn't he? ;)
  • edited August 2023 Posts: 3,327
    mtm wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    There are plenty who say, "Given the story, how else could it end?" Fair point, but that didn't have to be the story. I believe Craig was a great Bond. He certainly went out with a bang. But for me it's not one of those great Bond moments. Perhaps because Craig wanted it, it seems to exist outside of the film, as if the scene has less to do with Bond than the actor playing him.

    People really get fixated on Craig having the idea and thinking it's all a massive ego thing; people who make films do it to make good stories, not for their egos. And I'd say it's also a question of what other ending was left for his Bond? We'd done faked death, we'd done driving off into the sunset, we'd done retirement, we'd done coming back to MI6... what new and interesting ending was there for him?

    Killing Blofeld, getting a head injury, and living life as a fisherman suffering from amnesia, not knowing who he is, and then one day thinking he is from Russia, so sets off sail there. No Madeline, no daughter in tow, no Safin, no nanobots.

    This ending hasn't been done before, even if an obituary was made when Bond went missing in SF at the beginning. In fact you could end this without showing an aftermath obituary in London, just in case anyone thinks this story has been done before (and just how many Bond stories are recycled without anyone getting bothered by it).

    It's been quite a few years since Bourne did something similar to this. And the producers could have spinned this as `we are properly adapting a Fleming novel to end Craig's tenure, just like we did with his debut,' just so this is marketed correctly as the original spy story by Fleming, and it didn't copy Bourne. Fleming and Bond did it first....Bourne copied. Time to set the record straight!

    I would be far happier with this ending instead of the garbage we got instead, and this would be a fitting way for Craig to leave. Tragic cliff-hanger, a very unique ending, but still alive.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    Venutius wrote: »
    And he did call him 'Blofield' at one point...
    But if Craig had been playing himself, he'd've been effing and blinding every tenth word, wouldn't he? ;)

    Unless you know Daniel Craig personally, I just don’t know how anyone can say: he’s just playing Daniel Craig!

    Maybe it’s simply that he made choices in scenes, as an actor, that you don’t like, rather than he’s “playing himself”.

    I had the very good fortune of seeing Craig as MacBeth last year. We had front row seats, and no matter your personal feelings, the guy is a consummate professional, a true actor in every sense of the word (as in not a “star” who plays just one dimensions of a character, but digs deep to find his “truth” of the character he’s playing; perhaps his “truth” of where James Bond is at in NTTD doesn’t reflect where you think James Bond should be, and therefore these scenes didn’t work for you (I’m very happy I didn’t feel this way, and his performance, to me, breaks my heart with his authenticity)…)

  • edited August 2023 Posts: 3,327
    peter wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    And he did call him 'Blofield' at one point...
    But if Craig had been playing himself, he'd've been effing and blinding every tenth word, wouldn't he? ;)

    Unless you know Daniel Craig personally, I just don’t know how anyone can say: he’s just playing Daniel Craig!

    Maybe it’s simply that he made choices in scenes, as an actor, that you don’t like, rather than he’s “playing himself”.

    I had the very good fortune of seeing Craig as MacBeth last year. We had front row seats, and no matter your personal feelings, the guy is a consummate professional, a true actor in every sense of the word (as in not a “star” who plays just one dimensions of a character, but digs deep to find his “truth” of the character he’s playing; perhaps his “truth” of where James Bond is at in NTTD doesn’t reflect where you think James Bond should be, and therefore these scenes didn’t work for you (I’m very happy I didn’t feel this way, and his performance, to me, breaks my heart with his authenticity)…)

    I'm glad you found those scenes in question worked for you. There are many who have the same complaints I did about those particular scenes, so there is definitely something not quite right in terms of what Craig was hoping for when he performed those scenes.

    One person having this opinion would be normal, but many people having the exact same issues I had? Something went wrong. He lost sight of the Fleming character and created something else instead that audiences couldn't identify with.
  • VenutiusVenutius Yorkshire
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,152
    Have to say I never got the impression that he was 'playing Daniel Craig' at any point in NTTD. I think it's worth remembering that Bond himself is putting up a front during most of the Blofeld scene and that's why it might appear that Dan's slipped out of character there - but it's Bond that's slipped out of character. He's playing up to Blofeld's arrogance and conceit in the hope that he'll drop his guard and let something slip.
  • edited August 2023 Posts: 4,139
    I must say, I'm glad we didn't get the amnesia storyline from YOLT for this ending. As much as some fans like the idea, it would have been a very strange way to finish given this was Craig's final film. Without the pay off of the brainwashing it just doesn't work. Having a new Bond introduced with that plot would also be wrong in the sense that we need to know that version of the character before he attempts to kill M (it feels more like a betrayal with this in mind, as well as the fact that with Fleming's Bond we knew he was prone to subversive cynicism that the Russians have tapped into). I'm sure it could have worked if Craig had had another film, but the whole 'coming back from the dead after being presumed dead' thing was done in SF anyway and was handled well and in line with the spirit of the Fleming novels.

    Honestly, I don't think the ending would have as many fans had it ended with Bond getting amnesia. Controversial as the finale is (and as much as I don't like it myself) it does have its fans. Personally I don't think we're going to see a direct adaptation of the amnesia subplot from YOLT/TMWTGG anytime soon. I'm sure ideas from it will be taken for a future film, but I doubt we'll see it done directly. It's a tricky ending to get right, and if the pieces aren't fitted together properly it can come off as very silly or weird.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,789
    peter wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    And he did call him 'Blofield' at one point...
    But if Craig had been playing himself, he'd've been effing and blinding every tenth word, wouldn't he? ;)

    Unless you know Daniel Craig personally, I just don’t know how anyone can say: he’s just playing Daniel Craig!

    Maybe it’s simply that he made choices in scenes, as an actor, that you don’t like, rather than he’s “playing himself”.

    I had the very good fortune of seeing Craig as MacBeth last year. We had front row seats, and no matter your personal feelings, the guy is a consummate professional, a true actor in every sense of the word (as in not a “star” who plays just one dimensions of a character, but digs deep to find his “truth” of the character he’s playing; perhaps his “truth” of where James Bond is at in NTTD doesn’t reflect where you think James Bond should be, and therefore these scenes didn’t work for you (I’m very happy I didn’t feel this way, and his performance, to me, breaks my heart with his authenticity)…)

    I'm glad you found those scenes in question worked for you. There are many who have the same complaints I did about those particular scenes, so there is definitely something not quite right in terms of what Craig was hoping for when he performed those scenes.

    One person having this opinion would be normal, but many people having the exact same issues I had? Something went wrong. He lost sight of the Fleming character and created something else instead that audiences couldn't identify with.

    Indeed, because the way Craig played the character here was so different, that it's hard to identify with.

    Heck, even the clothes that he wore in the film, it's something that I couldn't see the Bond character wearing, but Daniel Craig himself might likely wear, it's a lot more worse than the different types of Safari suits that Moore's Bond had wore, the only one where those NTTD outfits is better was the clown suit/Mischka's circus suit in OP (and maybe that tracksuit in AVTAK).

    Craig's portrayal of the character in NTTD was just different from the rest, even to his previous portrayals.

    It's like Craig forgot that he's meant to be James Bond, and started playing himself like he doesn't care.

    The only Bondian moment in NTTD was the Cuba sequence, but in the film's entirety, that scene felt like a mini short Bond film, like a Bond advert between a generic Craig Action Movie.

    If one may remove that Cuba sequence, it's almost an ordinary movie starring Daniel Craig.

    For me, it felt a bit similar to his other films like Defiance.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    I’m not saying you’re wrong @jetsetwilly , but also, at the same time, how many people on this site? I don’t know, but there are many of us.

    And out of the many, quite a few members wrote their thoughts on NTTD…. Dozens and dozens of individuals. But only what? 8 or 10 or 12 have written this complaint? Not saying that their feelings about these particular scenes are wrong, but perhaps it comes down to the choices he made as an actor that the 8 or 10 or 12 had issues with, rather than Craig “not caring” about the role, or “playing himself”.

    I did get something more out of his performance, thankfully. I genuinely loved his portrayal through the entirety of this film. And I’m happy I did.

    And I can understand your perspective, about him missing the mark on Fleming, but it kind of runs into my point of: Craig made a choice, as an actor, and he decided where Bond is at in NTTD, and specifically he made choices on how his Bond, in this present state of mind, would take on Blofeld. It really did gel with me, and it didn’t with you. Not one person is right, though.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited August 2023 Posts: 6,296
    007HallY wrote: »
    I must say, I'm glad we didn't get the amnesia storyline from YOLT for this ending. As much as some fans like the idea, it would have been a very strange way to finish given this was Craig's final film. Without the pay off of the brainwashing it just doesn't work. Having a new Bond introduced with that plot would also be wrong in the sense that we need to know that version of the character before he attempts to kill M (it feels more like a betrayal with this in mind, as well as the fact that with Fleming's Bond we knew he was prone to subversive cynicism that the Russians have tapped into). I'm sure it could have worked if Craig had had another film, but the whole 'coming back from the dead after being presumed dead' thing was done in SF anyway and was handled well and in line with the spirit of the Fleming novels.

    Honestly, I don't think the ending would have as many fans had it ended with Bond getting amnesia. Controversial as the finale is (and as much as I don't like it myself) it does have its fans. Personally I don't think we're going to see a direct adaptation of the amnesia subplot from YOLT/TMWTGG anytime soon. I'm sure ideas from it will be taken for a future film, but I doubt we'll see it done directly. It's a tricky ending to get right, and if the pieces aren't fitted together properly it can come off as very silly or weird.

    Agreed. However, it occurs to me that--in an alternate universe--*this* is the gravitas that the 3rd act of SP desperately needed. Bond kills Blofeld at the base in Morocco, loses his memory, Madeleine (not Kissy) gets him to some sort of Mr. White safe house and nurses Bond back to health, discovers she's pregnant, Bond wanders off to Russia...

    Then onto Bond 25...
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 2023 Posts: 16,383
    mtm wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    There are plenty who say, "Given the story, how else could it end?" Fair point, but that didn't have to be the story. I believe Craig was a great Bond. He certainly went out with a bang. But for me it's not one of those great Bond moments. Perhaps because Craig wanted it, it seems to exist outside of the film, as if the scene has less to do with Bond than the actor playing him.

    People really get fixated on Craig having the idea and thinking it's all a massive ego thing; people who make films do it to make good stories, not for their egos. And I'd say it's also a question of what other ending was left for his Bond? We'd done faked death, we'd done driving off into the sunset, we'd done retirement, we'd done coming back to MI6... what new and interesting ending was there for him?

    Killing Blofeld, getting a head injury, and living life as a fisherman suffering from amnesia, not knowing who he is, and then one day thinking he is from Russia, so sets off sail there. No Madeline, no daughter in tow, no Safin, no nanobots.

    I'd say the fake death thing was done in SF. For it to happen twice to the same Bond (and it didn't happen to any of the other five) might feel a bit repetitious.
    I would be far happier with this ending instead of the garbage we got instead, and this would be a fitting way for Craig to leave. Tragic cliff-hanger, a very unique ending, but still alive.

    I'd say there's a good chance we'd think he was going to die.
    peter wrote: »
    Venutius wrote: »
    And he did call him 'Blofield' at one point...
    But if Craig had been playing himself, he'd've been effing and blinding every tenth word, wouldn't he? ;)

    Unless you know Daniel Craig personally, I just don’t know how anyone can say: he’s just playing Daniel Craig!

    Maybe it’s simply that he made choices in scenes, as an actor, that you don’t like, rather than he’s “playing himself”.

    I had the very good fortune of seeing Craig as MacBeth last year. We had front row seats, and no matter your personal feelings, the guy is a consummate professional, a true actor in every sense of the word (as in not a “star” who plays just one dimensions of a character, but digs deep to find his “truth” of the character he’s playing; perhaps his “truth” of where James Bond is at in NTTD doesn’t reflect where you think James Bond should be, and therefore these scenes didn’t work for you (I’m very happy I didn’t feel this way, and his performance, to me, breaks my heart with his authenticity)…)

    I'm glad you found those scenes in question worked for you. There are many who have the same complaints I did about those particular scenes, so there is definitely something not quite right in terms of what Craig was hoping for when he performed those scenes.

    One person having this opinion would be normal, but many people having the exact same issues I had? Something went wrong. He lost sight of the Fleming character and created something else instead that audiences couldn't identify with.

    Well I'm with Peter: I can't see the issue. So if there's more than one of us thinking that way, by the same logic there's nothing wrong. Maybe it just comes down to personal opinion rather than fact.
    007HallY wrote: »
    I must say, I'm glad we didn't get the amnesia storyline from YOLT for this ending. As much as some fans like the idea, it would have been a very strange way to finish given this was Craig's final film. Without the pay off of the brainwashing it just doesn't work. Having a new Bond introduced with that plot would also be wrong in the sense that we need to know that version of the character before he attempts to kill M (it feels more like a betrayal with this in mind, as well as the fact that with Fleming's Bond we knew he was prone to subversive cynicism that the Russians have tapped into). I'm sure it could have worked if Craig had had another film, but the whole 'coming back from the dead after being presumed dead' thing was done in SF anyway and was handled well and in line with the spirit of the Fleming novels.

    Honestly, I don't think the ending would have as many fans had it ended with Bond getting amnesia. Controversial as the finale is (and as much as I don't like it myself) it does have its fans. Personally I don't think we're going to see a direct adaptation of the amnesia subplot from YOLT/TMWTGG anytime soon. I'm sure ideas from it will be taken for a future film, but I doubt we'll see it done directly. It's a tricky ending to get right, and if the pieces aren't fitted together properly it can come off as very silly or weird.

    Yes I think there's a reason why SF only adapted it so far: it's a pretty naff concept and hasn't dated well.

  • edited August 2023 Posts: 4,139
    mtm wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I must say, I'm glad we didn't get the amnesia storyline from YOLT for this ending. As much as some fans like the idea, it would have been a very strange way to finish given this was Craig's final film. Without the pay off of the brainwashing it just doesn't work. Having a new Bond introduced with that plot would also be wrong in the sense that we need to know that version of the character before he attempts to kill M (it feels more like a betrayal with this in mind, as well as the fact that with Fleming's Bond we knew he was prone to subversive cynicism that the Russians have tapped into). I'm sure it could have worked if Craig had had another film, but the whole 'coming back from the dead after being presumed dead' thing was done in SF anyway and was handled well and in line with the spirit of the Fleming novels.

    Honestly, I don't think the ending would have as many fans had it ended with Bond getting amnesia. Controversial as the finale is (and as much as I don't like it myself) it does have its fans. Personally I don't think we're going to see a direct adaptation of the amnesia subplot from YOLT/TMWTGG anytime soon. I'm sure ideas from it will be taken for a future film, but I doubt we'll see it done directly. It's a tricky ending to get right, and if the pieces aren't fitted together properly it can come off as very silly or weird.

    Yes I think there's a reason why SF only adapted it so far: it's a pretty naff concept and hasn't dated well.

    There's definitely a hokey side to it, at least when you read the synopsis on paper. I would say that the Fleming novels handle it quite well and it's thematically very relevant to YOLT in the sense that it's a novel about 'rebrith' (ie. him recovering from his PTSD throughout the novel and finally confronting a Blofeld who has essentially become mad).

    It's there in SF - the idea of 'resurrection' and Bond learning to overcome his personal and physical obstacles. So I think it worked well there. Again, without the pay off of the brainwashing simply having Bond become an amnesiac wouldn't have really worked for NTTD and I suspect it would have had far more backlash for Craig's last film than the ending we got.
    echo wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    I must say, I'm glad we didn't get the amnesia storyline from YOLT for this ending. As much as some fans like the idea, it would have been a very strange way to finish given this was Craig's final film. Without the pay off of the brainwashing it just doesn't work. Having a new Bond introduced with that plot would also be wrong in the sense that we need to know that version of the character before he attempts to kill M (it feels more like a betrayal with this in mind, as well as the fact that with Fleming's Bond we knew he was prone to subversive cynicism that the Russians have tapped into). I'm sure it could have worked if Craig had had another film, but the whole 'coming back from the dead after being presumed dead' thing was done in SF anyway and was handled well and in line with the spirit of the Fleming novels.

    Honestly, I don't think the ending would have as many fans had it ended with Bond getting amnesia. Controversial as the finale is (and as much as I don't like it myself) it does have its fans. Personally I don't think we're going to see a direct adaptation of the amnesia subplot from YOLT/TMWTGG anytime soon. I'm sure ideas from it will be taken for a future film, but I doubt we'll see it done directly. It's a tricky ending to get right, and if the pieces aren't fitted together properly it can come off as very silly or weird.

    Agreed. However, it occurs to me that--in an alternate universe--*this* is the gravitas that the 3rd act of SP desperately needed. Bond kills Blofeld at the base in Morocco, loses his memory, Madeleine (not Kissy) gets him to some sort of Mr. White safe house and nurses Bond back to health, discovers she's pregnant, Bond wanders off to Russia...

    Then onto Bond 25...

    I'm sure the issue with that is they weren't sure whether Craig would be returning. But I certainly think that would have worked better than tacking on the ending onto NTTD.
  • Posts: 1,985
    Is being fixated on Craig having the idea and thinking it's all a massive ego thing appreciably different from people fixated on the idea of no other ending left for Craig's Bond? I'd like to think the conversation wasn't, "We've done everything but kill him. That's only thing left."

    I reject the notion there weren't other new and interesting endings for Craig's Bond. The end was driven by the script the writers produced. NTTD is not a bad film, but neither the best. Do I think I could have come up with a better ending? Yes, as I imagine lots of regulars on this site feel they could have come up with a better ending. Will I offer those ideas? No. When EON wishes to pay me to write for them, I will. That's ego speaking, which is at the heart of all creative effort designed to be consumed by the masses. One's desire to make good art involves ego.





  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    I have zero talents as a screenwriter but I also don't agree that that was the only way for the journey of Craig's Bond to end. If you're plotting things out exclusively on the idea of Bond dying in the end, then sure it is, but that was their choice and they could've gone plenty of other ways for wrapping his saga instead.
  • At the end of the day, SP has the better send off for Craig, for sure!
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,789
    pic161.png

  • At the end of the day, SP has the better send off for Craig, for sure!

    I have to be honest and say that the more time passes since NTTD’s release, the more I agree with you. In fact in a perfect world, Craig would’ve bounced after SP and we’d already be at least one film into the next actors era by now. Sadly things didn’t go that way.
  • Posts: 3,327
    peter wrote: »

    And I can understand your perspective, about him missing the mark on Fleming, but it kind of runs into my point of: Craig made a choice, as an actor, and he decided where Bond is at in NTTD, and specifically he made choices on how his Bond, in this present state of mind, would take on Blofeld. It really did gel with me, and it didn’t with you. Not one person is right, though.
    There is no right or wrong in this, just a matter of opinion. Most Bond films don't tend to polarise the fan base like NTTD has done though, due to its many controversial creative decisions.

    All I know is, had they taken a less controversial path (no Felix dying, no daughter, no Bond dying, etc.) I probably would have enjoyed the film a lot more, and would have rated it much higher than where it currently sits, bottom of my ranking list.

    Either way, I now look back on Craig's tenure with sadness. It was a missed opportunity that showed so much promise in the beginning with CR, but then to be let down slightly more when each new film was released.

    I know other people feel different, and Craig is often hailed as the best thing since Connery. I used to share that opinion, but I don't anymore. Craig now sits bottom of my Bond actor ranking too.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 2023 Posts: 3,789
    I understand what the Producers are trying to do, but for me, it's not just executed well, and what they've done was made such things overcomplicated (tying the knots from SPECTRE, even though there's nothing in that previous film that in needs of tying), do some unnecessary fan services or callbacks that didn't makes sense (I'm looking at both of you, OHMSS references and Dalton's V8), both that doesn't make much sense to the film.

    The concept of Bond dying was interesting yet risky, but again, the way they've wrote the script or the plot backwards to support the idea of Bond dying was really wrong and weak, it's inconsistent, full of contrivances and deus ex machina, it's the film that had no idea what it's trying to do within self.

    I know it's often subjective, but that's at least how I feel about this film, it's too much pretentious that it tried to break from the Bond formula but it fell short in it, and in doing so, pushed the Bond trademark down the cliff.

    I would probably accept this film had it been a standalone adventure without any references from the previous films, but no, they've made each things so overcomplicated.

    It's too much over the top for me in a different way which that all of the things happened in the film are way too much for me to take (the overkill of Bond, notwithstanding).

    I know some of you liked it, but here it is, my opinion.

    I'm still fond of Craig, don't worry, he's still miles better than Roger Moore (probably my least favorite Bond actor, as of now), Skyfall is my favorite from him.

    But it's just this film that I really couldn't take from him.
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