How 'patriotic' should James Bond (and Bond 26 beyond) be?

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  • Posts: 1,999
    I was born in England and moved to the states when I was six. That makes 70 years an American. But I root for England in every endeavor, competition and take pride in every gold medal. After all these years my connection to England is very strong. For me the issue is less about patriotism than pride in one's country. Is it worth caring about?

    With respect to Bond, we may laugh at a Margaret Thatcher knockoff, but does that reinforce a silly old, stuffy British stereotype? Or Higson describing Charles as a "not so freely minted monarch." No great offense. Indeed, Charles is closer to eighty than seventy. But that sentence can be taken as a criticism. Had I been the writer, I wouldn't have found it necessary to remind readers Charles is an old man.

    I don't have a problem with Bond films celebrating Britain. For those who say Fleming's Bond wasn't a big fan of the homeland, we haven't Fleming's Bond for a long time, if ever.

  • Posts: 15,125
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It's hard not to add some traitors or enemy within. After all, we're talking of spy movies. They need an element of deceit.

    I suppose you're right. But in the bond movies specifically, the first 20 movies or so, there isn't a lot of double crossers and traitors, and if there is, they're usually the baddies turning good.

    Well, in the first one there's Miss Taro, but she's in a minor role. You could also add Professor Dent. There's also a number "hostile" people hiding their true nature: the man who infiltrates Tanaka's ninja school in TWINE, that photographer, the chauffeur in DN, the taxi driver in LALD, etc. I like that element in spy thrillers, not only in Bond films: you meet someone and you're not certain which side he's on.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,428
    Really in LALD, especially in the first half, it's 'all black people'! :D
  • DaltonforyouDaltonforyou The Daltonator
    Posts: 556
    mtm wrote: »
    I think the iconography of the Union Jack is great fun whenever it pops up, but when it does so it’s in a tongue-in-cheek, slightly ironic way: Bond doesn’t quite mean it sincerely. The Union Jack parachute is a gag. I don’t feel that Bond ever has a huge love of his country. He has a great sense of duty, yes; but that’s perhaps more to his superiors and colleagues, to what he’s sworn allegiance to personally. He’s a soldier, so he follows orders and supports his unit. He has a sense of loyalty, and morality. If the world needs saving he’ll do it because he knows it’s right, even if it means getting his hands dirty.
    But I don’t think he’s driven by a sense of patriotism to the U.K. He leaves it as often as possible, and we even see him retire to Jamaica, not the Cotswolds. And I think that’s something any of the screen Bonds would have done, the book one too.

    I'm not a Brit, but I'm sure you could find some who don't feel the union jack parachute is an ironic thing. It's all a matter of perspective.

    I remember Cubby describing the audience reaction to it for the first time and he said everybody got up and cheered instead of it being a punch line. Over the top yes, but I think most people get caught up in the moment.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,428
    Sure of course, movies are open to interpretation and everyone has their own.
  • edited August 26 Posts: 4,170
    mtm wrote: »
    I think the iconography of the Union Jack is great fun whenever it pops up, but when it does so it’s in a tongue-in-cheek, slightly ironic way: Bond doesn’t quite mean it sincerely. The Union Jack parachute is a gag. I don’t feel that Bond ever has a huge love of his country. He has a great sense of duty, yes; but that’s perhaps more to his superiors and colleagues, to what he’s sworn allegiance to personally. He’s a soldier, so he follows orders and supports his unit. He has a sense of loyalty, and morality. If the world needs saving he’ll do it because he knows it’s right, even if it means getting his hands dirty.
    But I don’t think he’s driven by a sense of patriotism to the U.K. He leaves it as often as possible, and we even see him retire to Jamaica, not the Cotswolds. And I think that’s something any of the screen Bonds would have done, the book one too.

    I'm not a Brit, but I'm sure you could find some who don't feel the union jack parachute is an ironic thing. It's all a matter of perspective.

    I remember Cubby describing the audience reaction to it for the first time and he said everybody got up and cheered instead of it being a punch line. Over the top yes, but I think most people get caught up in the moment.

    It's a crowd cheering sort of moment, but quite tongue in cheek. If that sort of moment was in anything other than a Bond movie it'd be blatant (and rather bad) propaganda most likely, one that Britain likely wouldn't even make, at least like that.

    But in a Bond movie it works. You have this rather fantastical scenario of Bond being chased by Russians as he skies off from a beautiful lady after being called to duty. There's a bit of seriousness in there with Anya's boyfriend being killed, but ultimately it's a very fast paced way of getting you into the film with its energy and stunts. I think a big part of the crowd cheering was also due to the Bond theme, the tension being relieved of the long take/Bond escaping this perilous jump, and the fact that this was the first Bond film in three years (very long, I know) and this being the first big stunt in that time. There's a bit of British pride in there with Bond besting the Russians and using his Union Jack parachute to escape, but I suspect the audience during that screening Cubby talked about weren't entirely British ones anyway. Without all of those factors of Bondian ridiculousness, it wouldn't work as a moment. I wouldn't call it a sincere display of British pride insofar as anything specific is drummed up by it, but neither is it a farcical joke. It's something very much between. Again, tongue in cheek, but Bondian.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 26 Posts: 16,428
    Really the Union Jack is there less of a sign of patriotism or anything and more as the closest thing Bond has a logo, really! If it wasn't for it not making any sense then he probably would have had the 007 pistol logo on there, because really it's about Bond's audacious swaggering triumph over the baddies and his sticking two fingers up at them. If it were Batman doing it he'd have a great big Bat logo on his canopy, and we'd all cheer. But the Union Jack is a nice touch because it does inspire a little bit of pride and joy in the audience and includes them in Bond's victory: it's quite inclusive.
  • Posts: 4,170
    mtm wrote: »
    Really the Union Jack is there less of a sign of patriotism or anything and more as the closest thing Bond has a logo, really! If it wasn't for it not making any sense then he probably would have had the 007 pistol logo on there, because really it's about Bond's audacious swaggering triumph over the baddies and his sticking two fingers up at them. If it were Batman doing it he'd have a great big Bat logo on his canopy, and we'd all cheer. But the Union Jack is a nice touch because it does inspire a little bit of pride and joy in the audience and includes them in Bond's victory: it's quite inclusive.

    It's not dissimilar to SF's unveiling of the Aston Martin/the Bond theme kicking in (and as you've said from personal experience that's a crowd cheering moment). Just the iconography of the classic Bond car, the Bond theme, the scene being the first time in the film Bond is seen truly gaining the upper hand/taking matters into his own hands etc. And SF's obviously a film with quite a lot of British imagery anyway!
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    Lots of people here are too young to remember but the year TSWLM came out was the Queen’s Silver Jubilee and the Union Jack was, unusually, everywhere in Britain. Us kids were given little polythene Union Jacks on black plastic sticks at school, The New Avengers was on tv with the flag part of its logo, and Marvel Comics had just launched Captain Britain as a weekly comic the year before. Everybody was cashing in on the Union Jack because of the Jubilee.
  • Posts: 4,170
    Lots of people here are too young to remember but the year TSWLM came out was the Queen’s Silver Jubilee and the Union Jack was, unusually, everywhere in Britain. Us kids were given little polythene Union Jacks on black plastic sticks at school, The New Avengers was on tv with the flag part of its logo, and Marvel Comics had just launched Captain Britain as a weekly comic the year before. Everybody was cashing in on the Union Jack because of the Jubilee.

    Yeah, to be fair I had no idea that was the case.

    Doesn't sound too dissimilar to SF coming out the same year as the London Olympics with its British iconography.
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    007HallY wrote: »
    Lots of people here are too young to remember but the year TSWLM came out was the Queen’s Silver Jubilee and the Union Jack was, unusually, everywhere in Britain. Us kids were given little polythene Union Jacks on black plastic sticks at school, The New Avengers was on tv with the flag part of its logo, and Marvel Comics had just launched Captain Britain as a weekly comic the year before. Everybody was cashing in on the Union Jack because of the Jubilee.

    Yeah, to be fair I had no idea that was the case.

    Doesn't sound too dissimilar to SF coming out the same year as the London Olympics with its British iconography.

    Yeah, I think that’s probably true. Bond knows how to cash in on a trend!
  • Posts: 15,125
    Imagine the TSWLM PTS remade in a completely different action movie. Same sequence, different character, same ending with the Union Jack, but the whole thing is utterly devoid of irony. Say the music accompanying the Union Jack reveal is Land of Hope and Glory. And the hero a serious, staunch British patriot. The sequence becomes laughably bad.
  • George_KaplanGeorge_Kaplan Being chauffeured by Tibbett
    edited August 26 Posts: 686
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Imagine the TSWLM PTS remade in a completely different action movie. Same sequence, different character, same ending with the Union Jack, but the whole thing is utterly devoid of irony. Say the music accompanying the Union Jack reveal is Land of Hope and Glory. And the hero a serious, staunch British patriot. The sequence becomes laughably bad.

    That'd make a good UKIP advert.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited August 27 Posts: 13,818
    Union Jack in a Bond film. Patriotic yes. Love that stuff.

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  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    I don't mind a Union Jack here or there, in the Rog era it was always done with a big fat wink to the audience, and then I'd say it's fine.

    As long as we don't get into the sentimental kind of we-are-better-than-everyone-else sort of flag-waving, like for instance in quite a few Hollywood-made war films, I'm okay with it.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 27 Posts: 16,428
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Imagine the TSWLM PTS remade in a completely different action movie. Same sequence, different character, same ending with the Union Jack, but the whole thing is utterly devoid of irony. Say the music accompanying the Union Jack reveal is Land of Hope and Glory. And the hero a serious, staunch British patriot. The sequence becomes laughably bad.

    Yeah that's a good point, it's absolutely done with a wink. And you make a good point about the music- I should have mentioned that when I said it could have been the 007 logo rather than the flag: it absolutely is celebrating him more than the country as it's his theme tune which plays and not the national anthem! :)

    I've never thought about it before, but flying a hot air balloon with the Union Jack on it over an Indian palace of all places is some pretty bad optics isn't it! :))
  • sandbagger1sandbagger1 Sussex
    Posts: 942
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Imagine the TSWLM PTS remade in a completely different action movie. Same sequence, different character, same ending with the Union Jack, but the whole thing is utterly devoid of irony. Say the music accompanying the Union Jack reveal is Land of Hope and Glory. And the hero a serious, staunch British patriot. The sequence becomes laughably bad.

    Yeah that's a good point, it's absolutely done with a wink. And you make a good point about the music- I should have mentioned that when I said it could have been the 007 logo rather than the flag: it absolutely is celebrating him more than the country as it's his theme tune which plays and not the national anthem! :)

    I've never thought about it before, but flying a hot air balloon with the Union Jack on it over an Indian palace of all places is some pretty bad optics isn't it! :))
    The flag's reversed, too.
  • Posts: 1,999
    Bond is British. Be British. Own it. Be proud of it. You don't need weepy, maudlin patriotism slobbering over the flag or the royals. Don't make apologies for it and don't treat it with gentle mockery. You're either proud to be a Brit or you're not.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,428
    I think the barn door has shut on it being treated with gentle mockery! :))
  • Posts: 15,125
    I think British patriotism has gentle mockery in its DNA. If you don't have it, it's not patriotism, it's jingoism. You need a certain level of self deprecation.
  • Posts: 1,999
    In what way? Why? Being patriotic and fiercely loyal to one's country strikes me as different from having a sense of humor about being British.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    I'm not a Brit, but patriotism for me includes a healthy, critical distance to your own country, the desire to improve things that could be better, and also being ironic and occasionally having a good laugh about it, and your own relationship to it. Nothing worse than "right or wrong - my country!" or stuff like the pledge of allegiance, the social need to wear flag lapel pins, and having to listen to the national anthem before every high school ballgame in the U.S. The best patriots are those who want to make their country better (instead of thinking everything is good because it's their country), and who don't take it too serious.
  • Posts: 1,999
    I believe those things are valuable and not a thing wrong with having a sense of humor about things, but they are not part of the definition of patriotism. Were somebody to ask me if I am a patriot, my answer would be yes. I wouldn't expect them to follow up with, but do you have a sense of humor about it? I might or I might not. But not relevant.

    I agree about the pledge and the national anthem. Ritual without reverence because both have become so routine many do not even pay attention.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,428
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I think British patriotism has gentle mockery in its DNA. If you don't have it, it's not patriotism, it's jingoism. You need a certain level of self deprecation.

    Yes I think you’re right there. Once you cross over into nationalism then you’re in trouble.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,818
    And justice for all.
  • Posts: 15,125
    CrabKey wrote: »
    In what way? Why? Being patriotic and fiercely loyal to one's country strikes me as different from having a sense of humor about being British.

    I'm talking specifically about British patriotism. Which has a level of self deprecation and irony. Something I find mostly absent in US.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited September 3 Posts: 7,136
    In my opinion 'fierce loyalty to a country' should be approached with the necessary precautions. I'm not claiming one cannot find pride in one's country, because you certainly can, but 'fierce loyalty' reminds me too much of non-critical obedience and that's where it becomes dangerous.
    Let's also not pretend that there are countries that have always stood on the right side of history. Every country has had its dark moments and 'fierce loyalty' at such a moment also implements that the 'loyal individual' may be pushed towards less than laudable actions.

    Bond himself in GE refers to an incident as 'Not exactly our finest hour', which I think is Bond aknowledging that his country as well has had its dark moments too.

    With that in mind, national pride with an ironic wink at the audience is a better choice than straightforward 'patriotism' of the 'we are the best nation on the planet and everything we do is by definition right' kind.

    The Bond films have mostly done this very well, the Union Jack parachute in TSWLM and the hot-air balloon in OP are good examples. Even the pen in NSNA is fun, I always chuckle at 'Not perfected yet.'
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