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Sympathy for the Devil: Do you have sympathy for any of the James Bond Villains or Henchmen?

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  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,173
    Gerard wrote: »
    And what about those who have been betrayed ? Like Elektra King, for example : Seeing her mother's inheritance taken by her father, being kidnapped and mutilated and having to "be nice" to her kidnapper to escape, only to discover that her father didn't pay any ransom under M's suggestion... Well, I would snap too.

    And let's not even mention Silva.

    Nope, no symphaty at all. Her father didn't 'steal' the empire, he inherited it. As it goes with those who marry. But crazy lilttle spoiled Elektra didn't agree with his decisions, so she had him killed. M was right, they should've let her rot in hell. But that didn't happen as she managed to turn poor little Renard. Now here's a poor man to have symphaty for. First you just have a proper career in villainy, and before you know it you fall in love with a spoiled brat, just so you can have a bullit put through your head. What else to do then to help her blow up millions of people?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,120
    Yes that’s true, there is something slightly pathetic (in the classical sense) about Reynard.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,181
    mtm wrote: »
    Yes that’s true, there is something slightly pathetic (in the classical sense) about Reynard.

    Yes, there is something quite tragic about him. The slowly dying man who feels nothing taunted in bed by Elektra King. And later, the dying man attempting to sacrifice himself for an already dead woman and her dead dream.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 8,952
    There is probably something tragic about every villain, in the Bond films as well as in real life. Dictators not achieving their dream, due to nasty democracy movements. Wife murderers having been taunted and cuckolded so they just "had to" kill the nasty woman (or with husband murderesses, vice versa). Not to mention actual psychopaths, who aren't culpable within the meaning of criminal law, but still have to be stopped. Sexual predators who are still loving parents to their own children. Etc. etc.

    Still doesn't provide any reason to feel sympathy for them, and especially not their deeds.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,788
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    There is probably something tragic about every villain, in the Bond films as well as in real life. Dictators not achieving their dream, due to nasty democracy movements. Wife murderers having been taunted and cuckolded so they just "had to" kill the nasty woman (or with husband murderesses, vice versa). Not to mention actual psychopaths, who aren't culpable within the meaning of criminal law, but still have to be stopped. Sexual predators who are still loving parents to their own children. Etc. etc.

    Still doesn't provide any reason to feel sympathy for them, and especially not their deeds.

    You are what you do, I have no sympathy for bad life choices even on the anvil of extreme pain. Redemption I DO believe in. See: Vader tossing the Emperor
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,181
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    There is probably something tragic about every villain, in the Bond films as well as in real life. Dictators not achieving their dream, due to nasty democracy movements. Wife murderers having been taunted and cuckolded so they just "had to" kill the nasty woman (or with husband murderesses, vice versa). Not to mention actual psychopaths, who aren't culpable within the meaning of criminal law, but still have to be stopped. Sexual predators who are still loving parents to their own children. Etc. etc.

    Still doesn't provide any reason to feel sympathy for them, and especially not their deeds.

    That's all true but I think in the grand scheme of things I am meaning here relative sympathy as opposed to absolute sympathy or absolving the villains and henchmen of their evil deeds.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,173
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    There is probably something tragic about every villain, in the Bond films as well as in real life. Dictators not achieving their dream, due to nasty democracy movements. Wife murderers having been taunted and cuckolded so they just "had to" kill the nasty woman (or with husband murderesses, vice versa). Not to mention actual psychopaths, who aren't culpable within the meaning of criminal law, but still have to be stopped. Sexual predators who are still loving parents to their own children. Etc. etc.

    Still doesn't provide any reason to feel sympathy for them, and especially not their deeds.
    I read having sympathy for a Bond villain as having an understanding of his/hers motivation which can be read as a warning to society. I find that a far way off from the real world and any sympathy for any real life criminal or dictator.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited August 7 Posts: 16,120
    Yeah the whole point of tragic heroes like Macbeth is that you can see their potential but watch them make the wrong choices or be pulled in the wrong direction by forces out of their control, and there is a degree of sympathy in that even if their deeds aren't redeemable. I don't think it's impossible to feel a pang of sympathy for someone in that position, and some Bond villains do fit into that mould to some extent. Carver: no, he's just selfish and malevolent and even when he's chewed up by his own sea drill it feels like just desserts; Le Chiffre: yeah, he's caught up in a situation beyond his control even if he did make his bed, and there's a pang of sympathy to be had watching a human being trying desperately to escape his own fate, even if he's trying to drag others down with him. He's cornered and terrified.

    Maybe it would be interesting to see a Bond villain who is a properly tragic figure, pulled and pushed into making all the wrong decisions, with 007 basically as the agent of fate sent to balance the scales.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,085
    @mtm
    Do you have an example of such a villain from other film series?
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,181
    mtm wrote: »
    Yeah the whole point of tragic heroes like Macbeth is that you can see their potential but watch them make the wrong choices or be pulled in the wrong direction by forces out of their control, and there is a degree of sympathy in that even if their deeds aren't redeemable. I don't think it's impossible to feel a pang of sympathy for someone in that position, and some Bond villains do fit into that mould to some extent. Carver: no, he's just selfish and malevolent and even when he's chewed up by his own sea drill it feels like just desserts; Le Chiffre: yeah, he's caught up in a situation beyond his control even if he did make his bed, and there's a pang of sympathy to be had watching a human being trying desperately to escape his own fate, even if he's trying to drag others down with him. He's cornered and terrified.

    Maybe it would be interesting to see a Bond villain who is a properly tragic figure, pulled and pushed into making all the wrong decisions, with 007 basically as the agent of fate sent to balance the scales.

    I think that Le Chiffre most fits the bill for that kind of Bond villain. His compromised position is a rather unique situation that we don't really see in any of the other Bond novels or films. He's quite atypical of Bond villainy in that regard though ironically he was also the first Bond villain.
  • 007HallY007HallY
    Posts: 3,827
    Le Chiffre’s still quite evil. He’s essentially bankrolling terrorism. Even in the book he’s a nasty sadist. But yes, his situation is quite unique in the sense he’s trying to get himself out of it.

    As I said, I think the problem with having a truly ‘sympathetic’ villain in Bond is that it’s good vs evil. We can get a Safin or a Silva, but I don’t think a villain will ever be a sort of Frankenstein’s Monster (at least in the novel terms - ie. a victim of society whose evils and madness are a product of the awful world they live in and the wrongs people do to them). The Bond villain has to make a conscious choice to commit an evil for selfish reasons. Even if they’ve been put through it or have had suffering inflicted on them there’s more than a hint that they’re naturally inclined to that darkness anyway (ie. Safin’s family supplied poison to SPECTRE so we’re likely quite dodgy anyway, and of course his name is very much a clue to that inner evil. Even Silva was an agent prior to becoming a cyber terrorise and likely was already quite dangerous).
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,276
    Some henchmen have had the ability to be humanized by their actors. I think of Harold Sakata as OddJob. While I never feel sympathy for him, I find myself liking him if that makes any sense.

    Jaws is another henchman who was humanized and switched sides in MR. I never had sympathy for him in Spy. In fact I felt more sympathy for his victims even though you could argue that these men were not on the right side of life either.

    Finally I will circle back to Gobinda from OP. His "Out there?" says so much and his devotion to Kamal is admirable and at the same time draws my sympathy.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,173
    thedove wrote: »
    Some henchmen have had the ability to be humanized by their actors. I think of Harold Sakata as OddJob. While I never feel sympathy for him, I find myself liking him if that makes any sense.

    Jaws is another henchman who was humanized and switched sides in MR. I never had sympathy for him in Spy. In fact I felt more sympathy for his victims even though you could argue that these men were not on the right side of life either.

    Finally I will circle back to Gobinda from OP. His "Out there?" says so much and his devotion to Kamal is admirable and at the same time draws my sympathy.

    Ok, but where do we stand with Mr white. He's a criminal, he knows it, but finds himself ousted because he does have a moral compass, and it's the end of him.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,788
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    thedove wrote: »
    Some henchmen have had the ability to be humanized by their actors. I think of Harold Sakata as OddJob. While I never feel sympathy for him, I find myself liking him if that makes any sense.

    Jaws is another henchman who was humanized and switched sides in MR. I never had sympathy for him in Spy. In fact I felt more sympathy for his victims even though you could argue that these men were not on the right side of life either.

    Finally I will circle back to Gobinda from OP. His "Out there?" says so much and his devotion to Kamal is admirable and at the same time draws my sympathy.

    Ok, but where do we stand with Mr white. He's a criminal, he knows it, but finds himself ousted because he does have a moral compass, and it's the end of him.

    HE was a kite dancing in a storm.... okay, some sympathy there...
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,276
    Mr. White almost becomes an Anti-Hero by the time of SP. In QOS he was a key cog in the machine and someone I was rooting for Bond to get. However SP portrayed him as weak and dying. They gave him a daughter which further brings an emotional element to his character. He has a noble death. At any time up to SP did I have sympathy for him? Nope.

    SP almost stacked the deck and made the audience have sympathy for the guy. Quite a feat as in QOS and CR he is a shadowy figure who operates in a cold and calculating way.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,618
    Redemption.
  • SIS_HQSIS_HQ At the Vauxhall Headquarters
    edited August 8 Posts: 3,749
    To be honest, and based on my observation, the sympathetic villains didn't happened until Hollywood starts giving those villains (mostly in the Superhero franchises) backstories that would make the people sympathize and pity them.

    I'm not sure if I found any of the Bond villains pitiable, they've been always portrayed as greedy, truly evil and maniacal ones, not worthy of mercy, these villains are Fleming's rules, they're made out to be unpleasant and to say, disgusting, their plans could've resulted in world chaos if Bond was not there to stop them.

    Maybe Renard, because Elektra used him and he's motivated by her despite of not knowing that Elektra was just using him, Elektra didn't care for either man by the way, she used them to pursue her plans (yes, even Bond).

    Or maybe those henchmen working in the villains' big corporations: think of the people working inside of Drax's space shuttle, or those men who worked in Zorin's company, or those men working in Dr. No's facility that got involved in Bond's thwarting of such businesses, nothing but treated as collateral damage like some of them may not be evil and just doing their jobs, but when their bosses became a target of MI6, their days were numbered.

    Okay, from my recent memory I could count here Silva from SF, mainly because M was the cause of what he became of.
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