The Craig era - sullied for some?

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Comments

  • Posts: 1,615
    I think the Craig formula dried up. That's all. In my opinion the best are CR and SF and I think he will be remembered for these films.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,962
    007HallY wrote: »
    Why wouldn’t, say, MR ruin your enjoyment of Moore’s later, comparatively more grounded films because Bond had an outlandish adventure and went to space?
    Hmmm, you just made me realize that I dislike every film after Dr. No! Never watching anything but Dr. No ever again!
    Kidding. You make a good point. I hold each movie responsible for what it is within that film.

  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,154
    I think the Craig formula dried up. That's all. In my opinion the best are CR and SF and I think he will be remembered for these films.

    Well, if I look at my own choices...two out of three ain't bad. We just seem to differ on NTTD.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,962
    In other words, SP was so bad it ruined 2 movies.

    Hey- I enjoy SP quite a bit... but that was very funny.
  • Posts: 2,127
    Bond has been dead a long while now, and resurrection seems far off. Would the gap feel the same if Bond had not died?
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,962
    Yes. It's like the early 90's all over again.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,466
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Yes. It's like the early 90's all over again.

    If that means we're getting a GoldenEye next, I'm in!
  • Posts: 4,624
    chrisisall wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    Why wouldn’t, say, MR ruin your enjoyment of Moore’s later, comparatively more grounded films because Bond had an outlandish adventure and went to space?
    Hmmm, you just made me realize that I dislike every film after Dr. No! Never watching anything but Dr. No ever again!
    Kidding. You make a good point. I hold each movie responsible for what it is within that film.

    Obviously FRWL is where the Bond franchise gets sullied. We go from a bad*ss Bond who kills in cold blood and beds women without a second thought to a character who develops feelings for a woman he’s meant to be seducing and gets over emotional when his friend dies. Just not James Bond, clearly.
  • thedovethedove hiding in the Greek underworld
    Posts: 5,596
    Funny, I have watched CR, QOS and SF quite a bit. SP and NTTD not so much. NTTD I watched twice, both times in the theatre. I bought the BluRay but have not watched it at all. Rare, in fact I can't recall another Bond film that I have done that with.

    I guess if you are going to kill a character that has lived since 1962 and 24 other film adventures, make it count. I don't feel the film makers made it count. The plot has holes and the reason for Bond to just suddenly feel like giving up was the best route was unforgiveable to me.

    Does this sully me on the entire arc of Craig's portrayal? I don't think it dampens my love of his other films. It changed the way I perceived him as an actor. The fact that he insisted on this type of ending shows to me an ego that he was bigger than the character.

    He remains my second favourite actor to portray the character and will likely continue to hold on to number 2. However Brosnan and Moore may climb ahead at some point if only for their appreciation of the character and their continued love for what he did for their careers.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,962
    thedove wrote: »
    Funny, I have watched CR, QOS and SF quite a bit. SP and NTTD not so much. NTTD I watched twice, both times in the theatre. I bought the BluRay but have not watched it at all. Rare, in fact I can't recall another Bond film that I have done that with.

    I guess if you are going to kill a character that has lived since 1962 and 24 other film adventures, make it count. I don't feel the film makers made it count. The plot has holes and the reason for Bond to just suddenly feel like giving up was the best route was unforgiveable to me.
    Me too. There are only two Bonds I do not own, MR & NTTD. Hmmm, I may need to buy MR though... (see what I did there?)
  • edited February 16 Posts: 4,624
    thedove wrote: »
    Funny, I have watched CR, QOS and SF quite a bit. SP and NTTD not so much. NTTD I watched twice, both times in the theatre. I bought the BluRay but have not watched it at all. Rare, in fact I can't recall another Bond film that I have done that with.

    I guess if you are going to kill a character that has lived since 1962 and 24 other film adventures, make it count. I don't feel the film makers made it count. The plot has holes and the reason for Bond to just suddenly feel like giving up was the best route was unforgiveable to me.

    Does this sully me on the entire arc of Craig's portrayal? I don't think it dampens my love of his other films. It changed the way I perceived him as an actor. The fact that he insisted on this type of ending shows to me an ego that he was bigger than the character.

    He remains my second favourite actor to portray the character and will likely continue to hold on to number 2. However Brosnan and Moore may climb ahead at some point if only for their appreciation of the character and their continued love for what he did for their careers.

    I’m not sure if he insisted on it as much as it was thought to be the best route to go creatively. If they didn’t think so the producers wouldn’t have made the film at all. So I don’t see what that says about Craig as an actor.
  • Posts: 2,127
    @007HallY - I’m not sure if he insisted on it as much as it was thought to be the best route to go creatively. If they didn’t think so the producers wouldn’t have made the film at all.

    Are you surmising their only reason for making the film was to kill Bond? Killing an iconic character was the best route to go creatively?

    Rocky, Wick, Indy, The Equalizer, Hunt, Bourne for whatever reasons haven't gone that creative route. Because it doesn't feel creative.

    Sure, we can move on and enjoy a new Bond. But I do think the end of NTTD will always hang over the series for those who've been with the series for a couple of or more Bonds.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,962
    CrabKey wrote: »
    @007HallY - I’m not sure if he insisted on it as much as it was thought to be the best route to go creatively. If they didn’t think so the producers wouldn’t have made the film at all.

    Are you surmising their only reason for making the film was to kill Bond? Killing an iconic character was the best route to go creatively?

    Rocky, Wick, Indy, The Equalizer, Hunt, Bourne for whatever reasons haven't gone that creative route. Because it doesn't feel creative.

    Sure, we can move on and enjoy a new Bond. But I do think the end of NTTD will always hang over the series for those who've been with the series for a couple of or more Bonds.

    They killed Superman in Batman vs. Superman... and Buffy in season 5.... but yeah, they both got revived. :P
  • edited February 16 Posts: 4,624
    CrabKey wrote: »
    @007HallY - I’m not sure if he insisted on it as much as it was thought to be the best route to go creatively. If they didn’t think so the producers wouldn’t have made the film at all.

    Are you surmising their only reason for making the film was to kill Bond? Killing an iconic character was the best route to go creatively?

    Rocky, Wick, Indy, The Equalizer, Hunt, Bourne for whatever reasons haven't gone that creative route. Because it doesn't feel creative.

    Sure, we can move on and enjoy a new Bond. But I do think the end of NTTD will always hang over the series for those who've been with the series for a couple of or more Bonds.

    I actually used to think that too. That Bond's death was a bit of fade chasing. To be honest, having thought about it/rewatched the film and gotten what I have out of it (both good and negative), I genuinely believe with a franchise like Bond and EON they'd only do what they think best for their stories. We can agree or disagree with these creative decisions, or it can be reminiscent of something else (it's happened in the past). But the safest thing to do would have been not to kill off Bond in NTTD.

    Personally, I can't say what their sole reason was for creating this film. I had nothing to do with that process. From what I've read they seemingly felt that a satisfying ending to the Craig era was needed and could be done, so there's a case to be made it goes deeper than simply killing Bond. I can see that. More importantly I can feel that watching NTTD.

    We've all been with two or more Bonds. We've all watched individual Bonds and many of us love specific Bonds whose movies came out before we were born. While some of us have more memories of going to see specific movies, we all share this. I do. It really doesn't matter if it was seeing GF in cinemas or SF, or anything in-between. We all share this. So I don't see why it should hang over the series if we've 'been with the series for a couple of Bonds', any more than the other examples I've given of creative decisions some of us don't like 'sullying' the films.
  • Posts: 2,127
    I wouldn't have used the word sully either. In the end none it makes any difference. Bond will go on -- eventually. On a persona level, I don't like the reminder of mortality. Perhaps the next film will be called 007, Resurrection.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,962
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I wouldn't have used the word sully either. In the end none it makes any difference. Bond will go on -- eventually. On a persona level, I don't like the reminder of mortality. Perhaps the next film will be called 007, Resurrection.

    The explosions cracked the facade he was standing on, and he was thrown into the experimental cryo chamber underneath. Nanobots healed his burns and prepared him for future re-awakening. 007 Resurrection: The World Will Be Enough
  • edited February 17 Posts: 4,624
    CrabKey wrote: »
    I wouldn't have used the word sully either. In the end none it makes any difference. Bond will go on -- eventually. On a persona level, I don't like the reminder of mortality. Perhaps the next film will be called 007, Resurrection.

    Fair enough about mortality. Personally I sometimes think that's what Bond always naturally contains, weird as it sounds (death follows Mr. Bond very naturally in his profession, unfortunately).

    But Bond will go on. It's astounding how long it's continued and how many different types of fans it has (both casual and more dedicated).
  • slide_99slide_99 USA
    edited February 17 Posts: 748
    CrabKey wrote: »
    @007HallY - I’m not sure if he insisted on it as much as it was thought to be the best route to go creatively. If they didn’t think so the producers wouldn’t have made the film at all.

    Are you surmising their only reason for making the film was to kill Bond? Killing an iconic character was the best route to go creatively?

    Rocky, Wick, Indy, The Equalizer, Hunt, Bourne for whatever reasons haven't gone that creative route. Because it doesn't feel creative.

    Sure, we can move on and enjoy a new Bond. But I do think the end of NTTD will always hang over the series for those who've been with the series for a couple of or more Bonds.

    From what I can tell from interviews and behind-the-scenes anecdotes, the producers wanted to make another movie with Craig and his price tag for returning was to kill him off. He wouldn't have done the movie at all without the ending, which is why the whole movie feels reverse-engineered.

    So, it's not so much that they made a movie specifically to kill him off, it's that they caved to the demand of their star instead of telling him to take a hike and finding a replacement actor, which is what Cubby would've done.

    I know it's a sore point around here, but I actually do think Babs had some sort of obsession with Craig. There's plenty of evidence for it, from the over-the-top praise (calling him one of the greatest actors ever, etc.) to the amount of creative control she gave him over the movies, which is something no previous actor had, not even Connery.
  • edited February 17 Posts: 4,624
    slide_99 wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    @007HallY - I’m not sure if he insisted on it as much as it was thought to be the best route to go creatively. If they didn’t think so the producers wouldn’t have made the film at all.

    Are you surmising their only reason for making the film was to kill Bond? Killing an iconic character was the best route to go creatively?

    Rocky, Wick, Indy, The Equalizer, Hunt, Bourne for whatever reasons haven't gone that creative route. Because it doesn't feel creative.

    Sure, we can move on and enjoy a new Bond. But I do think the end of NTTD will always hang over the series for those who've been with the series for a couple of or more Bonds.

    From what I can tell from interviews and behind-the-scenes anecdotes, the producers wanted to make another movie with Craig and his price tag for returning was to kill him off. He wouldn't have done the movie at all without the ending, which is why the whole movie feels reverse-engineered. For some reason the producers agreed to Craig's terms instead of telling him to take a hike and finding a replacement actor, which is what Cubby would've done.

    Do you not think the 'for some reason' there might be an indication that the producers might have actually agreed that this decision was best (whether or not it actually originated with Craig)?

    It's not like EON haven't said no to actors returning in the past or gone in different creative directions. And honestly, the whole 'Cubby would've done this' idea is very boring. The man sent Bond into space because he thought it'd be a) a good adventure and b) it'd be profitable. Both of which it was. Don't tell me he wouldn't have done something out of the box for Bond and simultaneously in line with the mainstream of movies. At any rate we have no idea what he would have thought as he's long dead and the closest we have to his business process is, in fact, his daughter and step son who actually run the franchise, and from what I understand actually follow in his example, if not his exact lessons in the film business! Oh, and not only have they made money but have garnered critical praise and, second hand, kept a fan base going (more than Cubby managed to do over a long term, especially during the latter parts of his tenure, good as he was). It really is such a stupid argument, the whole 'Cubby would have done this'. We as fans know nothing about what he'd do one way or the other, and shouldn't use that idea to justify our biases or personal opinions in an online post.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 14,113
    There is some sense to a Bond who survived five years after retirement being pulled into another mission and sacrificing himself for others.

  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,962
    There is some sense to a Bond who survived five years after retirement being pulled into another mission and sacrificing himself for others.

    Yes, I agree, but not how it was done. It was lazy writing IMHO. TWINE & SF were better written than this.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,377
    The only time I should see Bond die is when I play terribly at a Bond game. :))
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,962
    Murdock wrote: »
    The only time I should see Bond die is when I play terribly at a Bond game. :))

    HAHAHAaaa, you won the internet today, man! =D>
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,377
    chrisisall wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    The only time I should see Bond die is when I play terribly at a Bond game. :))

    HAHAHAaaa, you won the internet today, man! =D>

    One rises to meet a challenge. ;)
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,653
    It took me days to get out of the first room of Aztec in GE64
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,466
    007HallY wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    @007HallY - I’m not sure if he insisted on it as much as it was thought to be the best route to go creatively. If they didn’t think so the producers wouldn’t have made the film at all.

    Are you surmising their only reason for making the film was to kill Bond? Killing an iconic character was the best route to go creatively?

    Rocky, Wick, Indy, The Equalizer, Hunt, Bourne for whatever reasons haven't gone that creative route. Because it doesn't feel creative.

    Sure, we can move on and enjoy a new Bond. But I do think the end of NTTD will always hang over the series for those who've been with the series for a couple of or more Bonds.

    From what I can tell from interviews and behind-the-scenes anecdotes, the producers wanted to make another movie with Craig and his price tag for returning was to kill him off. He wouldn't have done the movie at all without the ending, which is why the whole movie feels reverse-engineered. For some reason the producers agreed to Craig's terms instead of telling him to take a hike and finding a replacement actor, which is what Cubby would've done.

    Do you not think the 'for some reason' there might be an indication that the producers might have actually agreed that this decision was best (whether or not it actually originated with Craig)?

    It's not like EON haven't said no to actors returning in the past or gone in different creative directions. And honestly, the whole 'Cubby would've done this' idea is very boring. The man sent Bond into space because he thought it'd be a) a good adventure and b) it'd be profitable. Both of which it was. Don't tell me he wouldn't have done something out of the box for Bond and simultaneously in line with the mainstream of movies. At any rate we have no idea what he would have thought as he's long dead and the closest we have to his business process is, in fact, his daughter and step son who actually run the franchise, and from what I understand actually follow in his example, if not his exact lessons in the film business! Oh, and not only have they made money but have garnered critical praise and, second hand, kept a fan base going (more than Cubby managed to do over a long term, especially during the latter parts of his tenure, good as he was). It really is such a stupid argument, the whole 'Cubby would have done this'. We as fans know nothing about what he'd do one way or the other, and shouldn't use that idea to justify our biases or personal opinions in an online post.

    @007HallY
    This is an excellent post. "Cubby would never have" and "Fleming would never have" are empty arguments. Both men have been dead for decades.

    There is always a context and a "zeitgeist" within which new Bond films are fabricated. MR is a perfect example—people can scoff at it now, but in '79, with Star Wars mania in full swing and space exploration being a hot topic, it made financial sense. Just like how the Craig era reflected post-9/11 sensibilities with a grittier, more grounded approach. EON has always adapted Bond to fit the zeitgeist, and any speculation about what Fleming or Cubby would have done is just that—speculation.

    We can't truly know how Cubby or Fleming would feel about the Craig era in today's world. Nor can we predict how Cubby would have steered EON through the challenges it faced after CR, or where Fleming might have positioned Bond on the shifting chessboard of 21st-century geopolitics.

    Bond has always evolved with the times, whether for better or worse. The idea that there’s a "pure" version of Bond that must be adhered to ignores how much the series has shifted over the decades. Fleming’s Bond was already different from the cinematic Bond that emerged under Cubby Broccoli, and every era since has been shaped by cultural shifts, audience expectations, and industry trends.

    As fans, we may hope for our beloved series to defy trends—or better yet, to set new ones—but even Bond films exist within Hollywood conventions, influenced by what has made other films successful. No matter how much I want to defend NTTD, I don’t like that Bond was killed. But I’m not the least bit surprised that it happened eventually.

    Was it the Fleming-thing-to-do? We don't know.
    Was it the 2020s-thing-to-do? Sadly, I think so, yes.
    Did it have to happen? Evidently, no.
    Do I wish it didn't happen? Absolutely!
    Can I come to terms with the fact that it happened? Easily.
    Has it tainted my Bond fandom, sullied the Craig era for me, or rendered my expectations of future Bond films cynical? As 'M' would have said, "No, that would be unprofessional."
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    Posts: 860
    DarthDimi wrote: »
    007HallY wrote: »
    slide_99 wrote: »
    CrabKey wrote: »
    @007HallY - I’m not sure if he insisted on it as much as it was thought to be the best route to go creatively. If they didn’t think so the producers wouldn’t have made the film at all.

    Are you surmising their only reason for making the film was to kill Bond? Killing an iconic character was the best route to go creatively?

    Rocky, Wick, Indy, The Equalizer, Hunt, Bourne for whatever reasons haven't gone that creative route. Because it doesn't feel creative.

    Sure, we can move on and enjoy a new Bond. But I do think the end of NTTD will always hang over the series for those who've been with the series for a couple of or more Bonds.

    From what I can tell from interviews and behind-the-scenes anecdotes, the producers wanted to make another movie with Craig and his price tag for returning was to kill him off. He wouldn't have done the movie at all without the ending, which is why the whole movie feels reverse-engineered. For some reason the producers agreed to Craig's terms instead of telling him to take a hike and finding a replacement actor, which is what Cubby would've done.

    Do you not think the 'for some reason' there might be an indication that the producers might have actually agreed that this decision was best (whether or not it actually originated with Craig)?

    It's not like EON haven't said no to actors returning in the past or gone in different creative directions. And honestly, the whole 'Cubby would've done this' idea is very boring. The man sent Bond into space because he thought it'd be a) a good adventure and b) it'd be profitable. Both of which it was. Don't tell me he wouldn't have done something out of the box for Bond and simultaneously in line with the mainstream of movies. At any rate we have no idea what he would have thought as he's long dead and the closest we have to his business process is, in fact, his daughter and step son who actually run the franchise, and from what I understand actually follow in his example, if not his exact lessons in the film business! Oh, and not only have they made money but have garnered critical praise and, second hand, kept a fan base going (more than Cubby managed to do over a long term, especially during the latter parts of his tenure, good as he was). It really is such a stupid argument, the whole 'Cubby would have done this'. We as fans know nothing about what he'd do one way or the other, and shouldn't use that idea to justify our biases or personal opinions in an online post.

    @007HallY
    This is an excellent post. "Cubby would never have" and "Fleming would never have" are empty arguments. Both men have been dead for decades.

    There is always a context and a "zeitgeist" within which new Bond films are fabricated. MR is a perfect example—people can scoff at it now, but in '79, with Star Wars mania in full swing and space exploration being a hot topic, it made financial sense. Just like how the Craig era reflected post-9/11 sensibilities with a grittier, more grounded approach. EON has always adapted Bond to fit the zeitgeist, and any speculation about what Fleming or Cubby would have done is just that—speculation.

    We can't truly know how Cubby or Fleming would feel about the Craig era in today's world. Nor can we predict how Cubby would have steered EON through the challenges it faced after CR, or where Fleming might have positioned Bond on the shifting chessboard of 21st-century geopolitics.

    Bond has always evolved with the times, whether for better or worse. The idea that there’s a "pure" version of Bond that must be adhered to ignores how much the series has shifted over the decades. Fleming’s Bond was already different from the cinematic Bond that emerged under Cubby Broccoli, and every era since has been shaped by cultural shifts, audience expectations, and industry trends.

    As fans, we may hope for our beloved series to defy trends—or better yet, to set new ones—but even Bond films exist within Hollywood conventions, influenced by what has made other films successful. No matter how much I want to defend NTTD, I don’t like that Bond was killed. But I’m not the least bit surprised that it happened eventually.

    Was it the Fleming-thing-to-do? We don't know.
    Was it the 2020s-thing-to-do? Sadly, I think so, yes.
    Did it have to happen? Evidently, no.
    Do I wish it didn't happen? Absolutely!
    Can I come to terms with the fact that it happened? Easily.
    Has it tainted my Bond fandom, sullied the Craig era for me, or rendered my expectations of future Bond films cynical? As 'M' would have said, "No, that would be unprofessional."

    Précisément, as another great character adapted from page to screen might say.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,218
    I love the Daniel Craig era of films. One of them, Casino Royale, is my #1 favorite James Bond film. If any era of Bond films got "sullied" for me was the Pierce Brosnan era. It started off quite promisingly with GoldenEye, but then got progressively worse as the films went on, his era ending with the absolute nadir of the series, Die Another Day, which is one of the most godawful films ever foisted on the poor viewing public. I'm probably exaggerating a tad. I just... really hate that film. The only Bond film I can say that about. Sure, there are entries that I'm not too keen on like TMWTGG or AVTAK or MR, but those are at least watchable and have an element or two about them that is at least enjoyable. Not so with DAD. Now that is a sullied era. A shame.

    Craig rules, though, and his films mostly do as well. He and CR saved the Bond film series for me. I was generally fine with NTTD and Bond's death at the end. It wasn't my preffered way to close out Craig's era, I suppose, but for what it was, it turned out fine.

    Yeah, That's interesting. I think i could say Casino Royale 'sullied' the Brosnan era for me.

    Because after being blown away by Craig's performance and the film itself, the Brosnan era just seemed so lightweight..
  • I wouldn’t go so far as to say that Craig suddenly ages Brosnan’s era; not when the plots of some of those films begin aging far better than some of us would’ve expected. That and I generally find GE on a whole a better a better viewing experience than CR, and TND a better watch than SF.

    And for how stupid DAD is at times, I’d always go for that one as opposed to the likes of QOS and SP purely on the basis that I can have fun with it.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,218
    I wouldn’t go so far as to say that Craig suddenly ages Brosnan’s era; not when the plots of some of those films begin aging far better than some of us would’ve expected. That and I generally find GE on a whole a better a better viewing experience than CR, and TND a better watch than SF.

    And for how stupid DAD is at times, I’d always go for that one as opposed to the likes of QOS and SP purely on the basis that I can have fun with it.

    That depends on your idea of 'fun..' ;)
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