What do you consider the most dire moment in a Bond film?

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  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    Even Wai Lin gets her arse handed to her. So, I don't see anybody being "Bond's equal". It's just a phrase that keeps being uttered in order to feed into the PC SJW's fantasies so they won't whine and cause troubles.

    Out of all the Bond Girls who are "Bond's equals", only Pussy Galore, Octopussy and Wai Lin come close.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Vesper and Tracy were the only ones who were "Bond's equal". That's why he properly fell in love with them.
  • Posts: 19,339
    Vesper and Tracy were the only ones who were "Bond's equal". That's why he properly fell in love with them.

    Agreed.

  • barryt007 wrote: »
    Vesper and Tracy were the only ones who were "Bond's equal". That's why he properly fell in love with them.

    Agreed.

    In which regard exactly where they his equals?
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    How exactly are we rating this perceived equality?

    When it comes to Vesper and Tracy it's easy to see why the connected to Bond. It's not a matter of them being equal, a term with so many broad connotations, but a matter of them understanding what kind of man he was and accepting him for his flaws and all the beautiful things about him too.
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 19,339
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Vesper and Tracy were the only ones who were "Bond's equal". That's why he properly fell in love with them.

    Agreed.

    In which regard exactly where they his equals?

    Intellect,being able to handle him in a subtle way,genuinely falling in love with him,willing to sacrifice themselves (Vesper in the lift), or place themselves in REAL danger to save him.
    (Tracy at the ice-rink).

    The banter between them and Bond shows the natural connection they have,something you can see Bond admires and is pleasantly surprised.

    The other women never got to see the man behind the mask,the true James Bond.
    These 2 did.


  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    How exactly are we rating this perceived equality?

    When it comes to Vesper and Tracy it's easy to see why the connected to Bond. It's not a matter of them being equal, a term with so many broad connotations, but a matter of them understanding what kind of man he was and accepting him for his flaws and all the beautiful things about him too.

    We can't really put an absolute on to it. A lot of people will base it on physical strength alone and that's fine but for me someone's equal is not just someone who can throw a kick or a punch.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    How exactly are we rating this perceived equality?

    When it comes to Vesper and Tracy it's easy to see why the connected to Bond. It's not a matter of them being equal, a term with so many broad connotations, but a matter of them understanding what kind of man he was and accepting him for his flaws and all the beautiful things about him too.

    We can't really put an absolute on to it. A lot of people will base it on physical strength alone and that's fine but for me someone's equal is not just someone who can throw a kick or a punch.

    The same for me. I just don't know what kind of equality we're talking about here. I don't think Tracy and Vesper knew Bond's life, but they were able to accept it. In many ways it's what makes them different and not equal (in some respects) that is the most interesting, where Bond learns to love for real and with real commitment because of them, and Vesper and Tracy find support and love at a time when they don't feel looked out for or when they're faced with his rough world.

    It's just hard to use the word "equal" in these cases when we're talking about two humans interacting, as it can carry so many different meanings or contexts. One way a person may find Bond and a girl equal may be one where another finds them different, etc. Like most things regarding humans, a lot of this isn't easy to classify, though interesting to think about.
  • barryt007 wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Vesper and Tracy were the only ones who were "Bond's equal". That's why he properly fell in love with them.

    Agreed.

    In which regard exactly where they his equals?

    Intellect,being able to handle him in a subtle way,genuinely falling in love with him,willing to sacrifice themselves (Vesper in the lift), or place themselves in REAL danger to save him.
    (Tracy at the ice-rink).

    The banter between them and Bond shows the natural connection they have,something you can see Bond admires and is pleasantly surprised.

    The other women never got to see the man behind the mask,the true James Bond.
    These 2 did.


    Regarding the movies you might be very well all right. I had thought you were referring to the novels in which case I would have to seriously disagree. Sorry, my mistake.
  • Posts: 19,339
    barryt007 wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    Vesper and Tracy were the only ones who were "Bond's equal". That's why he properly fell in love with them.

    Agreed.

    In which regard exactly where they his equals?

    Intellect,being able to handle him in a subtle way,genuinely falling in love with him,willing to sacrifice themselves (Vesper in the lift), or place themselves in REAL danger to save him.
    (Tracy at the ice-rink).

    The banter between them and Bond shows the natural connection they have,something you can see Bond admires and is pleasantly surprised.

    The other women never got to see the man behind the mask,the true James Bond.
    These 2 did.


    Regarding the movies you might be very well all right. I had thought you were referring to the novels in which case I would have to seriously disagree. Sorry, my mistake.

    No problems matey,easily done.
  • @jobo True. I guess Wai Lin is the more credible badass but Anya is the more fleshed out/believable character. They've never managed to nail both when tackling the Bond's equal idea (which I class as being an agent like him, if we just put it down to being strong characters nearly all of them are Bond's equal).
    I don't have a problem with the Bond's equal idea in itself, I just don't think they've ever reallt done it well apart from Anya. Wai Lin was a non character, a waste of Michelle Yeoh. Jinx I actually really like the idea of because she is the female Bond in every way (even when it comes to seduction), I just think that she was badly written and badly acted. Which is a shame because that sort of dynamic could have been fun.

    And Kara's one of my favourite Bond girls and I find her and Bond's relationship really sweet and endearing. It's easy to call her an idiot but she was in way over her head and coped really well considering (e.g. stealing the jeep at the airfield).

    I do think you're doing the Brosnan era girls a bit of a disservice too @Brady. Jinx is shit, Wai Lin is boring, and Christmas is Christmas (I like her to be fair, I think she's likeable, but that might be because it's Denise Richards in her prime) but he had some really good ones. Teri Hatcher is an awful actress but Paris is a great character. What happens to a Bond girl after he loves them and leaves them? She outgrows him, but that's easier said than done and both of them struggle with their feelings when they see eachother again. I liked that a lot. And Natalya is great. Intelligent, resourceful, but also very vulnerable at times. She feels real and human and minus the bikini scene, she might be the least sexualised out of all of them (she spends almost the whole film in a jumper). And even when she's on the beach in the bikini the purpose of it isn't "cor look at the Bond girl showing some skin", it's just a calm before the storm moment where she has to come to terms with who Bond is (feeding nicely into the "kill him, he means nothing to me", that's her way of telling him she understands). And if we're counting Elektra she's a brilliant character and one of the best villains of the series imo. A really believeable and sort of sympathetic psychopath.

    @thelivingroyale, I don't think I was being too hard on the Brosnan era girls. I don't find Wai, Paris, Christmas, Jinx or Miranda memorable or successful as actual characters, and that's the majority of the Brosnan era right there; you even agree with me about the vast majority of them, so that's telling. When Sean had amazing girls nearly across the board and, in my opinion, Dan's era has had the same above average batting average when it comes to depicting real and deep women, Brosnan's doesn't stack up in the same way. On paper a character like Jinx may seem appealing to some (I wouldn't like it anyway), but it's all in the execution by the actress. Those women were written very cartoonishly and for the MTV generation where their looks were stressed and the scripts and performances didn't explore much beyond the surface level stuff. The approach that the Dalton era reignited with Bond girls in some ways died again starting with TND and wasn't found again since CR, where quality also returned.

    The second part of your post is spent defending Natalya, but she doesn't need defending. I guess I should've outlined that more clearly, but I did say that the Brosnan era lost the touch of the best films' Bond girls "at times," implying that not all of them were bad. Natalya is the best of the 90s with literally no competition, and stands reasonably well against some of the other high tier women for sure. Much like a lot in GE, the first Brosnan film nailed things none of the other movies did half as well, and that's the biggest shame. I've been a reasonably vocal fan of Natalya on here in the past, so I didn't really think about making my stance on her clear. My point remains about Brosnan getting one really good Bond girl in a bunch of average or mediocre ones, and that's a bad batting average.

    Whenever I rewatch TWINE (it's been a long time) I'll see how I feel about Elektra but she's clearly yet to make a lasting impression on me. I think part of her character is let down by how awkward her interactions with Bond can be and how the best moment with her character in my eyes (Bond's murder of her) is down to what he does, and not what she does. It's nothing that stays with me, or makes me see it as monumental and memorable.

    I think the only one written with an emphasis on looks was Christmas. But I don't think the Brosnan era has a noticeably worse batch than any other era. I'd say Elektra, Xeina and Natalya are great. Paris (could have been great with a better actress) and Miranda are good. Wai Lin, Christmas (although as I said I like her) and Jinx are bad.

    All in all not too bad as every era has weak Bond girls, except maybe Dalton (and even then there's plenty of fans who can't stand Lupe). Connery had Kissy and Tiffany (I'm not a huge fan of Domino either, she's very unmemorable compared to most of the other Connery girls imo), and even Craig had Fields and Lucia (not particuarly bad, just very forgettable non characters, waste of the actresses* and in Fields case very shoehorned in). You could maybe argue that Brosnan had more weak ones than any other actor but I think Moore would take that (Goodnight, Bibi and Stacey are all awful imo, and both the MR girls are very one dimensional and forgettable).

    Elektra has a ton of great moments. There's the scene in bed with Renard for example where she's sadistically teasing him. The torture scene with Bond is another good one if you ignore the pain face and focus on her. How I feel about TWINE is how you feel about SP. I think there's a lot of depth and great stuff to enjoy there if people would only look for it.

    *I really wish Belluci had been cast as Paris like Brosnan wanted. She would have actually got a character to play rather than the glorified cameo she had in SP, and we wouldn't have had to suffer through Teri Hatcher's acting.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I don't understand this 'equal' discussion. Are we talking about women who were also spies, like Anya, Holly or Camille, or are we referring to women who stood up to him like Vesper (as opposed to Mary)?

    If it's the former then I agree with those who say there's no physical equal to Bond. OO7 is the hero after all so the plots are written in a manner to make him come out on top, even if ever so subtly.

    If it's the latter, then the same applies. Tracy succumbed to Bond's charms eventually and so did Vesper. They're both dead too while Bond goes on.

    Ultimately this is the James Bond show after all.

    Personally, I've liked all types of Bond girls. I like Anya, Holly, Camille, Vesper, Tracy, Mary, Solitaire etc. etc. Variety is the spice of life and what keeps the series interesting.

    I just have problems with some of the actresses who play specific roles, and how they come across as the character. For example, I'm not a fan of Kara not because of the way she was written but rather because of how D'abo played her. Same goes for Swann as Madeleine. With a different actress, I could have liked both these characters far more.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    bondjames wrote: »
    I just have problems with some of the actresses who play specific roles, and how they come across as the character. For example, I'm not a fan of Kara not because of the way she was written but rather because of how D'abo played her. Same goes for Swann as Madeleine. With a different actress, I could have liked both these characters far more.
    Why does d'Abo (and her character) get so much negativity on these boards, I wonder? Is it because she's too human or that she never wears a flashy bikini? D'Abo gave her character life and it shows. She can be difficult and clingy towards Bond sometimes, but she's no cowardice (ventures alone to rescue Bond at the base). Maybe people see her shifting personality as a trait of bad writing or characterization, but displaying multiple emotions, as she does, only makes her more realistic and 'sympa' as the French would say. Kara is simply a cellist caught up in a hot mess and tries her best to get through it and help Bond on his mission. And remember that Bond himself is keeping his cards close to his chest and so she never gets told precisely what the heck is happening until the last part of the movie.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2017 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    I just have problems with some of the actresses who play specific roles, and how they come across as the character. For example, I'm not a fan of Kara not because of the way she was written but rather because of how D'abo played her. Same goes for Swann as Madeleine. With a different actress, I could have liked both these characters far more.
    Why does d'Abo (and her character) get so much negativity on these boards, I wonder? Is it because she's too human or that she never wears a flashy bikini? D'Abo gave her character life and it shows. She can be difficult and clingy towards Bond sometimes, but she's no cowardice (ventures alone to rescue Bond at the base). Maybe people see her shifting personality as a trait of bad writing or characterization, but displaying multiple emotions, as she does, only makes her more realistic and 'sympa' as the French would say. Kara is simply a cellist caught up in a hot mess and tries her best to get through it and help Bond on his mission. And remember that Bond himself is keeping his cards close to his chest and so she never gets told precisely what the heck is happening until the last part of the movie.
    I can't speak for others of course. Certainly from my perspective I couldn't give two hoots whether she shows cleavage of wears a bikini. That's rather irrelevant to me. Natalya is one of my favourites (if not my absolute tops) and she's covered up most of the time.

    No, in my case it's because I find D'abo's interpretation too whiney. I don't like moaners generally. That's why I didn't like Smith's song, why I don't like Lowell's Pam and also why I wasn't impressed with Brosnan's antics at Baku. Even with her penchant for complaining if the delivery was a bit different, perhaps I could have liked it more.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    When was she "too whiney"?

    As for Natalya - she's ok I guess, nothing extraordinary. Pretty much akin to Kara.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2017 Posts: 23,883
    When was she "too whiney"?
    The cello & the horse's backside come to mind but generally it was with my perception of her overall disposition during the film. Sum of parts. As I said, it comes down to her delivery more than the specifics. That's of course in the eye of the beholder. I don't expect you to agree.

    I didn't like the way she went on about Georgi or the infamous "take me on the wheel" either. Once again, it's a matter of delivery rather than look or script.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,889
    bondjames wrote: »
    When was she "too whiney"?
    The cello & the horse's backside come to mind but generally it was with my perception of her overall disposition during the film. Sum of parts. As I said, it comes down to her delivery more than the specifics. That's of course in the eye of the beholder. I don't expect you to agree.

    I didn't like the way she went on about Georgi or the infamous "take me on the wheel" either. Once again, it's a matter of delivery rather than look or script.

    Well, she was very insistent on bringing that cello, I'll admit to that. Wouldn't call it whiny imo.

    I like her delivery, especially when she first spoke of Georgi to Bond. The way her face lit up and her sudden enthusiasm to talk. The more I think about her acting, the more I like it. *shrugs*
  • Posts: 19,339
    Meh...
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2017 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    When was she "too whiney"?
    The cello & the horse's backside come to mind but generally it was with my perception of her overall disposition during the film. Sum of parts. As I said, it comes down to her delivery more than the specifics. That's of course in the eye of the beholder. I don't expect you to agree.

    I didn't like the way she went on about Georgi or the infamous "take me on the wheel" either. Once again, it's a matter of delivery rather than look or script.

    Well, she was very insistent on bringing that cello, I'll admit to that. Wouldn't call it whiny imo.

    I like her delivery, especially when she first spoke of Georgi to Bond. The way her face lit up and her sudden enthusiasm to talk. The more I think about her acting, the more I like it. *shrugs*
    Fair enough. It's that acting (which some could see as 'innocent', but which I just found overdone in its 'wide eyed' approach) which I didn't quite buy, especially when combined with the horse's back-end and her almost virginal resistance on the wheel etc.

    Different strokes. It's not a big deal for me ultimately, and she suited Dalton's interpretation
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 11,189
    "wide-eyed" is exactly how I'd describe Kara @bondjames.

    With all due respect I don't think D'Abo is the strongest of actresses. She's ok and better than a lot that have appeared in a Bond film (she has a more convincing level of vulnerability) but she seems to have this puppy eyed look throughout TLD. There's a slightly "gooey" quality to her.

    Isabella is easily a more convincing actress.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    "wide-eyed" is exactly how I'd describe Kara @bondjames.

    With all due respect I don't think D'Abo is the strongest of actresses. She's ok and better than a lot that have appeared in a Bond film but she seems to have this puppy eyed look throughout TLD.

    Isabella is easily a more convincing actress.
    I completely agree @BAIN123. I've always felt that the way she delivers "Trust you? I don't even know your name" is sublime.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Natalya is one of, if not my favourite Bond girl.
  • Posts: 11,189
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    "wide-eyed" is exactly how I'd describe Kara @bondjames.

    With all due respect I don't think D'Abo is the strongest of actresses. She's ok and better than a lot that have appeared in a Bond film but she seems to have this puppy eyed look throughout TLD.

    Isabella is easily a more convincing actress.
    I completely agree @BAIN123. I've always felt that the way she delivers "Trust you? I don't even know your name" is sublime.

    I love that too. Vulnerability and charm.

    I also really like the shot of her standing amongst her dead colleagues just before the EMP goes off. Great acting.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    RC7 wrote: »
    Natalya is one of, if not my favourite Bond girl.
    Mine too.
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    "wide-eyed" is exactly how I'd describe Kara @bondjames.

    With all due respect I don't think D'Abo is the strongest of actresses. She's ok and better than a lot that have appeared in a Bond film but she seems to have this puppy eyed look throughout TLD.

    Isabella is easily a more convincing actress.
    I completely agree @BAIN123. I've always felt that the way she delivers "Trust you? I don't even know your name" is sublime.

    I love that too. Vulnerability and charm.

    I also really like the shot of her standing amongst her dead colleagues just before the EMP goes off. Great acting.
    Agreed. Since then I've only really liked Vesper and Severine, and interestingly these are my favourite films since GE. I suppose the Bond girl is more critical to my enjoyment of a film than I previously realized.
  • Posts: 684
    RC7 wrote: »
    Natalya is one of, if not my favourite Bond girl.
    Yes, definitely near the top. What endears me to her especially is how much she stands out without having fallen in love with Bond. Don't get me wrong -- I love Tracy and Vesper. But that the filmmakers made Natalya shine so much even though she was a typical one-off Bond girl is outstanding. The only other 'traditional' girl I can think of who stands out in spite of not being 'special' is Camille, who I'd also place near the top -- although I suppose you could argue she has different kind of 'special' status in that her and Bond don't get together at all.
  • Posts: 7,415
    When i saw GE first in the cinema i was impressed with Natalya. She certainly stood out more than Brossa! But she does have one awful scene, the beach encounter, which is horribly written ( and the one scene she seems uncomfortable with!)
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 11,189
    Yes, the beach scene is rather...cheesy to put it bluntly.

    Campbell talks about how difficult it is to make such a scene convincing in the dvd audio commentary incidentally.

    Still, I think Isabella fares better than an awful lot of Bond girls would in such a scene.
  • Severine is my favourite Bond girl. She made such a huge impact with such little screentime. Berenice is stunning and oozes charisma. Really enigmatic but also fleshed out and vulnerable in the way that most of the girls in the Fleming novels were. Wish we'd seen more of her.

    Natalya is probably my second favourite, I also really like Tracy, Kara, Pam and Octopussy. Elektra would be up there too, but I always think of her as a villain rather than a Bond girl (although I guess she's both).
  • Posts: 1,917
    As for Natalya - she's ok I guess, nothing extraordinary. Pretty much akin to Kara.

    I'll step in and spoil the love fest here and agree. Never liked Natalya during the first screening of GE and still think of her complaining and criticizing Bond rather than much of anything else. She may be more innocent and caught in the middle than the Bond equals, but why is so much of her dialogue devoted to being pissy?

    At least Onatopp was colorful and fun to have around while she lasted.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    BT3366 wrote: »
    As for Natalya - she's ok I guess, nothing extraordinary. Pretty much akin to Kara.

    I'll step in and spoil the love fest here and agree. Never liked Natalya during the first screening of GE and still think of her complaining and criticizing Bond rather than much of anything else. She may be more innocent and caught in the middle than the Bond equals, but why is so much of her dialogue devoted to being pissy?

    At least Onatopp was colorful and fun to have around while she lasted.

    To be fair, all of her friends were murdered in front of her.
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