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Timothy Dalton's Fisticuffs

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  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    Posts: 1,984
    I did like the "run a tab" moment. Unfortunately, though, you can see that other thug just spacing out for several moments before he says "Let me get it" and Bond delivers an elbow to his crown jewels.
  • CheminDeFerCheminDeFer
    Posts: 38
    Necros Fullstop.
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Its funny when you think that DaltonBond probably head butted as many people as he actually punched.
  • bondsumbondsum
    Posts: 3,333
    Ok, I've been redirected over here by our host @barryt007. Not sure I can add an awful lot more to what I've already said on my previous post on "Who should/could be a Bond" thread, other than to say Dalton really wasn't given a fair crack of the whip in the fisticuffs scenes. Part of the blame will lie in the script, direction and the choreography. Another will lie with Dalton himself, whether he felt satisfied with how he could throw a punch. The Bimini Bar fight scene in LTK is a good example of Dalton not looking very convincing. I understand that Dalton would ask for more takes, but to only be waved off by John Glen, hence their frosty relationship. Then again, Lazenby mostly did his scenes in one or two takes, so maybe the fault lies again with Dalton himself for not being ready enough on the day of the actual shoot? It's unfair of me to judge because I wasn't there. I can only judge the end results, and sadly Dalton falls short in the fighting department. Though he's an improvement over Roger Moore, he's probably about level pecking with Brosnan.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited May 2018 Posts: 11,189
    The punch he gave Del Toro in the bar fight was pretty good but he certainly wasn’t that well served in terms of choreography.

    For example, I always find the fight in the jail during TLD rather clumsily choreographed.

    Also, the Jeep fight at the beginning of TLD looks quite weak after watching the full-on battle Craig had with Carlos at the airport in CR.
  • 00Beast00Beast
    Posts: 4,762
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    The punch he gave Del Toro in the bar fight was pretty good but he certainly wasn’t that well served in terms of choreography.

    For example, I always find the fight in the jail during TLD rather clumsily choreographed.

    I also don't care for the jail fight in TLD, and you're right about the clumsy choreography. I'm not sure why it feels that way, but it somehow doesn't seem very dangerous or thrilling.

    Dalton's fighting in general is among the weaker fighting in the Bond series, but his fight scenes themselves make up for that by being generally good. It's a strange combination! For instance, Dalton isn't exactly a formidable threat in the bar fight in LTK, but that fight sequence itself is fun to watch.
  • bondsumbondsum
    edited May 2018 Posts: 3,333
    I dunno, @BAIN123. Maybe he's convincing to those that have never been in many fights themselves, but I always felt Dalton failed to deliver and build on the success of TLD, which he was so much better in. That bar fight in the Bimini Bar had the audience laughing out loud in the cinema showing I saw back in 89. I can distinctly remember thinking: surely this isn't how Dalton wants to be seen—as a pathetic fighter. Of course, the direction, choreography and editing also play a huge part in this scene. Look at how the often-derided Guy Hamilton shoots and cuts the elevator scene in DAF and compare it to this Bimini Bar brawl. John Barry's music certainly helps give it that added dimension, but look at Connery's facial expressions and how much more authentic they look than Dalton's. Dalton looks like he's caught up in the middle of something that he really doesn't want to be a part of. Like I said, I don't want to single out just Dalton here because Brosnan couldn't do it either.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Just realized I put a link to that jailer fight further up the page. You can see it for yourself.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    @bondsum. I can’t say I’ve been in many fights so am not the best person to comment on Dalton’s punching abilities but it looked ok. Not as convincing as Connery, Laz or Craig but better than Moore and Brosnan as you say.

    That bar fight is pretty embarrassing though I agree.
  • 00Beast00Beast
    Posts: 4,762
    bondsum wrote: »
    I dunno, @BAIN123. Maybe he's convincing to those that have never been in many fights themselves, but I always felt Dalton failed to deliver and build on the success of TLD, which he was so much better in. That bar fight in the Bimini Bar had the audience laughing out loud in the cinema showing I saw back in 89. I can distinctly remember thinking: surely this isn't how Dalton wants to be seen—as a pathetic fighter. Of course, the direction, choreography and editing also play a huge part in this scene. Look at how the often-derided Guy Hamilton shoots and cuts the elevator scene in DAF and compare it to this Bimini Bar brawl. John Barry's music certainly helps give it that added dimension, but look at Connery's facial expressions and how much more authentic they look than Dalton's. Dalton looks like he's caught up in the middle of something that he really doesn't want to be a part of. Like I said, I don't want to single out just Dalton here because Brosnan couldn't do it either.

    I think Brosnan was a little better than Dalton. While that may only be because the scenes themselves were better produced, it could also simply be because Brosnan had that edge over Dalton. At the very least, Brosnan convinces me more than Dalton in a fight scene.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Brosnan, like Moore, had a habit of grunting too much in fights. Once you start noticing it it becomes obvious (the soundproof room in TND, the fight with Renard and even the brawl with Trevelyan (definitely his best fight)
  • bondsumbondsum
    edited May 2018 Posts: 3,333
    00Beast wrote: »
    I think Brosnan was a little better than Dalton. While that may only be because the scenes themselves were better produced, it could also simply be because Brosnan had that edge over Dalton. At the very least, Brosnan convinces me more than Dalton in a fight scene.
    It would have been interesting to see Dalton in a Martin Campbell directed Bond fight and vice versa. I think the problem that Dalton had was also John Glen. Maybe if Brosnan had started in a couple of John Glen Bond movies, you might think differently about him? However, I don't think one is better than the other. I see them pretty much on par with each other, with Brosnan helped by better choreography and direction. You can get a fag paper in between the two.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Brosnan's 80s bar fight:
  • bondsumbondsum
    Posts: 3,333
    Jeezus, Brosnan was a terrible actor before he got the Bond job. The only thing I quite liked him in before GE was The Fourth Protocol, which incidentally I saw on it's first day of release at the Odeon Leicester Square in 87. It was probably helped by the fact that Brosnan didn't have to say very much in that movie.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    Even I think he's awful in Taffin.
  • bondsumbondsum
    Posts: 3,333
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Even I think he's awful in Taffin.
    Now you’re catching on, kid. I could teach you something yet :)
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    bondsum wrote: »
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Even I think he's awful in Taffin.
    Now you’re catching on, kid. I could teach you something yet :)

    Kid? I’m 32 ;)

  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Even I think he's awful in Taffin.

    THEN MAYBE YOU SHOULDN'T BE POSTING HERE! ;)
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    re-watching LTK; I hate Dalton's fight scenes in most of this film-- he telegraphs each blow... (except headbutts. I love his headbutts...)
    ... BUT.... when he jumps off Pam's plane onto the tanker trunk that he ends up infiltrating- that's a good fight scene.
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    ... and someone was talking about Dalton's physique in a positive way-- I have to be the asshole who says: no, just no.

    The man was tall.

    Handsome as hell.

    Tanned well. But....-

    He had a concave chest and twigs for arms; bow-leg twigs for legs.

    He should have worked out. He would have been a monster.

    P
  • peterpeter Toronto
    edited May 2018 Posts: 9,509
    Birdleson wrote: »
    Skip to the 2:00 mark for the relevant passage.


    I don't think Dalton smells like an elephant's butt-- maybe a horse's ass....

    (edit: I joke)
  • peterpeter Toronto
    Posts: 9,509
    It's a shame-- he had a great look, and a fine frame. But his physique was terrible.
  • 00Beast00Beast
    Posts: 4,762
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Brosnan, like Moore, had a habit of grunting too much in fights. Once you start noticing it it becomes obvious (the soundproof room in TND, the fight with Renard and even the brawl with Trevelyan (definitely his best fight)

    I have heard this before but must have mentally swept it under the rug. Now I will probably notice it frequently, haha!
    bondsum wrote: »
    00Beast wrote: »
    I think Brosnan was a little better than Dalton. While that may only be because the scenes themselves were better produced, it could also simply be because Brosnan had that edge over Dalton. At the very least, Brosnan convinces me more than Dalton in a fight scene.
    It would have been interesting to see Dalton in a Martin Campbell directed Bond fight and vice versa. I think the problem that Dalton had was also John Glen. Maybe if Brosnan had started in a couple of John Glen Bond movies, you might think differently about him? However, I don't think one is better than the other. I see them pretty much on par with each other, with Brosnan helped by better choreography and direction. You can get a fag paper in between the two.

    I agree that the issue may have been with the director the actor worked with rather than the actor's actual abilities. I'm sure few Bond actors truly had a knack for fist fights other than Lazenby or Craig (who I would suspect were already good at combat simply from noticing the sheer brutality in their fight scenes). I'd be inclined to include Connery in that group as well, though because Lazenby and Craig are more physically dominating than Connery, I could see where Connery may just have been convincing through good direction.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 4,023
    peter wrote: »
    re-watching LTK; I hate Dalton's fight scenes in most of this film-- he telegraphs each blow... (except headbutts. I love his headbutts...)
    ... BUT.... when he jumps off Pam's plane onto the tanker trunk that he ends up infiltrating- that's a good fight scene.

    Probably my favourite moment in the film. The driver goes at Dalton with a knife, Dalton wacks him one and then hits him with a fire extinguisher!

    When Dalton shoves him out of the truck onto the bonnet of the car Sanchez is travelling in, you can see Sanchez start to realize 'this isn't going to plan!'
  • barryt007barryt007
    Posts: 19,339
    Having watched my 5th favourite Bond film this weekend (LTK) with my wife !! (yes,she actually did watch it !!) I always thought that Dalton hardly threw a punch as Bond in his 2 films,but,I stand corrected ,as in the bar fight and later at Sanchez's complex,he gives a lot a people a real whack,convincingly as well.
  • ToTheRightToTheRight
    edited June 2019 Posts: 16,169
    The bit towards the end of DAYLIGHTS when Dalton knocks out the un-suspecting guard reminds me of similar scenes played by Sean and Roger.

    Connery has a great punch in NSNA as he knocks out a guard during the escape from Palmyra. It brought the house down when I saw it in the cinema. A loud cheer from the audience. A great Connery moment, IMO.

    Roger had a similar bit in AVTAK: "On your rear end!!!!"
    One blow and Bond's target is out for the count. That was also played for laughs as Roger sells it by shaking his sore hand a'la Jim Rockford. Still, I do believe he could really pull it off.

    Perhaps it's the angle of the shot, but Dalton's version of that scene does look choreographed and rehearsed, IMO. I doubt it was intended to be humorous like the others, though John Terry's "Hold it. He's coming back................go James" does make me chuckle. Doesn't look particularly convincing to me.
    There was footage of that scene being filmed on a Good Morning America segment back in '87. I remember Tim commenting on a particular take that the punch seemed to have more weight behind it. I wonder how many takes Dalton did?

    I think Dalton's punch to Dario in the Barrelhead Bar, more than makes up for it, though.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    Best punch? I'm going with the one Bond sticks on the Kenworth driver in LTK.
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