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Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • DoubleOhhSevenDoubleOhhSeven
    edited February 2014 Posts: 1,778
    Ludovico wrote:
    doubleoego wrote:
    Fiona Volpe's bedroom scenes in TB would suggest otherwise if we're talking erotic and sexually charged.

    I love TB, but this is just one scene. In FRWL, we have a lesbian villain, a henchman who has homo-sadistic fetichism, we have a possible threesome between Bond and the two Gypsies, Bond being taped during sex, Moneypenny being a bit of a voyeur herself, Kerim Bey being a polygamist, in practice if not de jure... And I miss a few.

    This is my first time posting on this particular thread. I should've started sooner. There are some interesting ideas here.

    @Ludovico. You really hit the nail on the head. FRWL definitely a sexual energy and theme to it. Obviously all Bond films do to a certain extent but never moreso than FRWL. I think it might have in large part to due with Terrence Howard's direction as Howard was a bit of a playboy himself. All of his films take sex more seriously than the giddy school-boyish approach the Moore films would take later on. You could easily see why Connery's early films were controversial. As Timothy Dalton said "they were never supposed to be for children".

    But then again it would've been difficult to pull this off with Moore's age. It was almost as if the films were in on the joke that a guy in his 50s probably wouldn't be so desirable to some the most beautiful young women in the world.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,466
    A few more (mostly) controversial opinions to add:
    -FRWL and TB are the most overrated Bond films, and GF has become underrated by some within this community
    -Martin Campbell is the best recurring Bond director
    -The last quarter of Skyfall is the best part of the film
    -FYEO, while still solid, is one of the most forgettable and sometimes dull Bond films
    -Top 5 Most Underrated Bond films = YOLT, TMWTGG, LTK, TWINE, and QOS.
    -Moore's first 3 films were his best
    -AVTAK is worse than MR
    -The best villain of the Connery era is Doctor No

  • doubleoegodoubleoego #LightWork
    Posts: 11,139
    DoubleOhhSeven wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    doubleoego wrote:
    Fiona Volpe's bedroom scenes in TB would suggest otherwise if we're talking erotic and sexually charged.

    I love TB, but this is just one scene. In FRWL, we have a lesbian villain, a henchman who has homo-sadistic fetichism, we have a possible threesome between Bond and the two Gypsies, Bond being taped during sex, Moneypenny being a bit of a voyeur herself, Kerim Bey being a polygamist, in practice if not de jure... And I miss a few.

    This is my first time posting on this particular thread. I should've started sooner. There are some interesting ideas here.

    @Ludovico. You really hit the nail on the head. FRWL definitely a sexual energy and theme to it. Obviously all Bond films do to a certain extent but never moreso than FRWL. I think it might have in large part to due with Terrence Howard's direction as Howard was a bit of a playboy himself. All of his films take sex more seriously than the giddy school-boyish approach the Moore films would take later on. You could easily see why Connery's early films were controversial. As Timothy Dalton said "they were never supposed to be for children".

    But then again it would've been difficult to pull this off with Moore's age. It was almost as if the films were in on the joke that a guy in his 50s probably wouldn't be so desirable to some the most beautiful young women in the world.

    Terrence Howard directed FRWL despite being born 6 years later after the film's release? Now that is controversial lol
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    Posts: 11,189
    DoubleOhhSeven wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    doubleoego wrote:
    Fiona Volpe's bedroom scenes in TB would suggest otherwise if we're talking erotic and sexually charged.

    I love TB, but this is just one scene. In FRWL, we have a lesbian villain, a henchman who has homo-sadistic fetichism, we have a possible threesome between Bond and the two Gypsies, Bond being taped during sex, Moneypenny being a bit of a voyeur herself, Kerim Bey being a polygamist, in practice if not de jure... And I miss a few.

    This is my first time posting on this particular thread. I should've started sooner. There are some interesting ideas here.

    @Ludovico. You really hit the nail on the head. FRWL definitely a sexual energy and theme to it. Obviously all Bond films do to a certain extent but never moreso than FRWL. I think it might have in large part to due with Terrence Howard's direction as Howard was a bit of a playboy himself. All of his films take sex more seriously than the giddy school-boyish approach the Moore films would take later on. You could easily see why Connery's early films were controversial. As Timothy Dalton said "they were never supposed to be for children".

    Compared to the novel the film is pretty mild. In the book Kerim talks about how he kept a woman prisoner naked and tied up.
  • DoubleOhhSevenDoubleOhhSeven
    Posts: 1,778
    doubleoego wrote:
    DoubleOhhSeven wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    doubleoego wrote:
    Fiona Volpe's bedroom scenes in TB would suggest otherwise if we're talking erotic and sexually charged.

    I love TB, but this is just one scene. In FRWL, we have a lesbian villain, a henchman who has homo-sadistic fetichism, we have a possible threesome between Bond and the two Gypsies, Bond being taped during sex, Moneypenny being a bit of a voyeur herself, Kerim Bey being a polygamist, in practice if not de jure... And I miss a few.

    This is my first time posting on this particular thread. I should've started sooner. There are some interesting ideas here.

    @Ludovico. You really hit the nail on the head. FRWL definitely a sexual energy and theme to it. Obviously all Bond films do to a certain extent but never moreso than FRWL. I think it might have in large part to due with Terrence Howard's direction as Howard was a bit of a playboy himself. All of his films take sex more seriously than the giddy school-boyish approach the Moore films would take later on. You could easily see why Connery's early films were controversial. As Timothy Dalton said "they were never supposed to be for children".

    But then again it would've been difficult to pull this off with Moore's age. It was almost as if the films were in on the joke that a guy in his 50s probably wouldn't be so desirable to some the most beautiful young women in the world.

    Terrence Howard directed FRWL despite being born 6 years later after the film's release? Now that is controversial lol

    Terrence Young. Lol jeez you what I meant.
    BAIN123 wrote:
    DoubleOhhSeven wrote:
    Ludovico wrote:
    doubleoego wrote:
    Fiona Volpe's bedroom scenes in TB would suggest otherwise if we're talking erotic and sexually charged.

    I love TB, but this is just one scene. In FRWL, we have a lesbian villain, a henchman who has homo-sadistic fetichism, we have a possible threesome between Bond and the two Gypsies, Bond being taped during sex, Moneypenny being a bit of a voyeur herself, Kerim Bey being a polygamist, in practice if not de jure... And I miss a few.

    This is my first time posting on this particular thread. I should've started sooner. There are some interesting ideas here.

    @Ludovico. You really hit the nail on the head. FRWL definitely a sexual energy and theme to it. Obviously all Bond films do to a certain extent but never moreso than FRWL. I think it might have in large part to due with Terrence Howard's direction as Howard was a bit of a playboy himself. All of his films take sex more seriously than the giddy school-boyish approach the Moore films would take later on. You could easily see why Connery's early films were controversial. As Timothy Dalton said "they were never supposed to be for children".

    Compared to the novel the film is pretty mild. In the book Kerim talks about how he kept a woman prisoner naked and tied up.

    Yeah but that's the case for all the novel to movie adaptations. The CR torture scene in the novel is much more extreme than what we got in the movie. In the movie it's mostly used for a laugh.
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited February 2014 Posts: 11,189
    Mostly used for a laugh? Really? Do Danny's screams of pain and looks of terror make you laugh ;)

    There are 3 lines that are meant to "ease the tension" otherwise it's deadly serious. Those smacks the knotted rope make cause me to wince everytime.
  • DoubleOhhSevenDoubleOhhSeven
    edited February 2014 Posts: 1,778
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Mostly used for a laugh? Really? Do Danny's screams of pain and looks of terror make you laugh ;)

    There are 3 lines that are meant to "ease the tension" otherwise it's deadly serious. Those smacks the knotted rope make cause me to wince everytime.

    I don't know about you but I saw the movie twice in a packed theater and after Craig uttered the "Now the whole world is gonna know you died scratching my balls" line the whole audience erupted with laughter. It was far and away the biggest laugh of the whole movie. The scene started out serious as a heart attack but those 3 lines did alot more than just "ease the tension".
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited February 2014 Posts: 11,189
    There were some laughs but I don't think that necessarily means the scene was played for laughs per se. It starts serious and it ends serious with Le Chiffe threatening to castrate Bond.
  • Perilagu_KhanPerilagu_Khan
    Posts: 2,483
    BAIN123 wrote:
    There were some laughs but I don't think that necessarily means the scene was played for laughs per se. It starts serious and it ends serious with Le Chiffe threatening to castrate Bond.

    Agreed. And one critic, whose name escapes me, argued that because of the torture sequence, CR should have been rated R.

  • LegateDamarLegateDamar
    Posts: 381
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    There were some laughs but I don't think that necessarily means the scene was played for laughs per se. It starts serious and it ends serious with Le Chiffe threatening to castrate Bond.

    Agreed. And one critic, whose name escapes me, argued that because of the torture sequence, CR should have been rated R.

    And yet The King's Speech was rated R. Go figure.
  • thelivingroyalethelivingroyale
    edited February 2014 Posts: 12,837
    Kara>Pam>Lupe imo.

    Pam is the fittest but I prefer Kara overall because she's a more original character than Pam and Bond seems to actually care about her. I like Lupe too, just not as much as the other two.
    hildebrand_rarity wrote:
    LegateDamar wrote:
    Not sure how controversial, but I like the themes from the Dalton films. I also really liked the Pretenders songs from TLD.

    Both in my top 10! (LTK at #2 and TLD at #6)

    Also, I think Live and Let Die is a terrible song. I find the lyrics moronic and the music sounds to me like five different (and none very good) songs strung together.

    You have the LTK theme song at no 2 but LALD is terrible? I think you need your ears checking ;)
  • BAIN123BAIN123
    edited February 2014 Posts: 11,189
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    There were some laughs but I don't think that necessarily means the scene was played for laughs per se. It starts serious and it ends serious with Le Chiffe threatening to castrate Bond.

    Agreed. And one critic, whose name escapes me, argued that because of the torture sequence, CR should have been rated R.

    I think that's certainly a strong reason to give the film a higher rating (a "15" here in the UK). It's pretty nasty to watch. Definitely not for kids.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,466
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    There were some laughs but I don't think that necessarily means the scene was played for laughs per se. It starts serious and it ends serious with Le Chiffe threatening to castrate Bond.

    Agreed. And one critic, whose name escapes me, argued that because of the torture sequence, CR should have been rated R.

    I think that's certainly a strong reason to give the film a higher rating (a "15" here in the UK). It's pretty nasty to watch. Definitely not for kids.

    I agree it's potentially R-rated material. If there's any Bond movie that should be R, it's definitely Casino Royale; otherwise they almost all seem like PG 13 material.

  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Birdleson wrote:
    I was pretty shocked, but pleased, when they included the torture scene. I didn't see it as played for laughs, despite the zingers that Bond throws out.

    Me neither. I saw the humour as Bond's last line of defence, so to speak. I thought it was a pretty dark scene overall.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    BAIN123 wrote:
    Perilagu_Khan wrote:
    BAIN123 wrote:
    There were some laughs but I don't think that necessarily means the scene was played for laughs per se. It starts serious and it ends serious with Le Chiffe threatening to castrate Bond.

    Agreed. And one critic, whose name escapes me, argued that because of the torture sequence, CR should have been rated R.

    I think that's certainly a strong reason to give the film a higher rating (a "15" here in the UK). It's pretty nasty to watch. Definitely not for kids.

    I would say that scene is worse to watch for (male) adults. :))
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    I wish many of the jokes had been left out personally. I think they take away from the scene.
  • SoundofthesinnersSoundofthesinners
    Posts: 3,236
    Bond's humor in that scene is clearly him trying to hold on throughout the crushing physical pain with any means necessary. He knows that what he's saying to Le Chiffre about Le Chiffre's fate is true, but he has to keep himself from becoming delirious with pain. It's much easier to survive physical pain when you have a psychological reason to do so.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Samuel001 wrote:
    I wish many of the jokes had been left out personally. I think they take away from the scene.

    Your balls are being whipped, you have no way out other than to prolong your torture, psychology being the only way. I felt it was appropriate and relevant to the James Bond of 2006.
  • Samuel001Samuel001 Moderator
    Posts: 13,355
    I wish it would have been kept a little more along the lines of the novel. It was good enough, as is but hay, that's just my view.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,466
    Soundofthesinners wrote:
    Bond's humor in that scene is clearly him trying to hold on throughout the crushing physical pain with any means necessary. He knows that what he's saying to Le Chiffre about Le Chiffre's fate is true, but he has to keep himself from becoming delirious with pain. It's much easier to survive physical pain when you have a psychological reason to do so.

    This. It was realistic for Bond's character and just a well-acted scene.

  • WillyGaloreWillyGalore
    Posts: 6,396
    RC7 wrote:
    Birdleson wrote:
    I was pretty shocked, but pleased, when they included the torture scene. I didn't see it as played for laughs, despite the zingers that Bond throws out.

    Me neither. I saw the humour as Bond's last line of defence, so to speak. I thought it was a pretty dark scene overall.

    Spot on.
  • Perilagu_KhanPerilagu_Khan
    Posts: 2,483
    RC7 wrote:
    Samuel001 wrote:
    I wish many of the jokes had been left out personally. I think they take away from the scene.

    Your balls are being whipped, you have no way out other than to prolong your torture, psychology being the only way. I felt it was appropriate and relevant to the James Bond of 2006.

    Seems I read that the jokes were included precisely to avoid the R rating. Without them, a difficult-to-watch scene would have been borderline excruciating.

  • TracyTracy
    edited February 2014 Posts: 1,708
    -FRWL and TB are the most overrated Bond films, and GF has become underrated by some within this community

    Re : you do have a point yes........

    -Martin Campbell is the best recurring Bond director

    Re : do you mean current era or all eras ?

    -FYEO, while still solid, is one of the most forgettable and sometimes dull Bond films

    Re : just like with TB it can have some slow moments , I still feel the movie is very good all together though.

    -Top 5 Most Underrated Bond films = YOLT, TMWTGG, LTK, TWINE, and QOS.

    Re : no arguments here.......

    -Moore's first 3 films were his best

    Re : imo his 80s era was better despite him getting old , TSWLM was the only significant movie of the 70s era......many missed chances just like with Brosnans era. Sure I like LALD but wouldn't go so far as to call it a very good Bond.

    -AVTAK is worse than MR

    Re : I disagree , AVTAK does have problems but still I give it credit for being down to Earth (well , as down to Earth as a Bond can be anyway) , I found the script passable.

    Walken did a lot with what he was given imo.

    May Day is not everyone's cup of tea but I find her character interesting despite MI6 being "?" about where she came from before Zorin.

    -The best villain of the Connery era is Doctor No

    Re : prolly yeah......that isn't to say Goldfinger the villain is awful , just feels he gets too much praise when other villains never get their credit due. This refers to all eras , not just 60s.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,466
    Tracy wrote:
    -FRWL and TB are the most overrated Bond films, and GF has become underrated by some within this community

    Re : you do have a point yes........

    -Martin Campbell is the best recurring Bond director

    Re : do you mean current era or all eras ?

    -FYEO, while still solid, is one of the most forgettable and sometimes dull Bond films

    Re : just like with TB it can have some slow moments , I still feel the movie is very good all together though.

    -Top 5 Most Underrated Bond films = YOLT, TMWTGG, LTK, TWINE, and QOS.

    Re : no arguments here.......

    -Moore's first 3 films were his best

    Re : imo his 80s era was better despite him getting old , TSWLM was the only significant movie of the 70s era......many missed chances just like with Brosnans era. Sure I like LALD but wouldn't go so far as to call it a very good Bond.

    -AVTAK is worse than MR

    Re : I disagree , AVTAK does have problems but still I give it credit for being down to Earth (well , as down to Earth as a Bond can be anyway) , I found the script passable.

    Walken did a lot with what he was given imo.

    May Day is not everyone's cup of tea but I find her character interesting despite MI6 being "?" about where she came from before Zorin.

    -The best villain of the Connery era is Doctor No

    Re : prolly yeah......

    AVTAK and MR are my two least favorite Bond movies period haha so it's not by much. And Campbell was my favorite recurring director for all eras. I feel like TB and FYEO are both solid Bond entries, but their moments of greatness are a lot more limited than most perceive.
  • TracyTracy
    Posts: 1,708
    I struggle with MWTGG and TWINE myself......have only seen QoS once , gonna re-watch it one day just to give it another chance.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,466
    Tracy wrote:
    I struggle with MWTGG and TWINE myself......have only seen QoS once , gonna re-watch it one day just to give it another chance.

    MWTGG is certainly not a well-made movie, but Christopher Lee and Roger Moore were both great I thought in it. TWINE has always been my second-favorite Brosnan Bond film (after GE), and QoS has almost always been a Top 10 Bond film for me.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    FoxRox wrote:
    MWTGG is certainly not a well-made movie, but Christopher Lee and Roger Moore were both great I thought in it. TWINE has always been my second-favorite Brosnan Bond film (after GE), and QoS has almost always been a Top 10 Bond film for me.

    I love all three! A pox on those who do not!
    :))
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,466
    chrisisall wrote:
    FoxRox wrote:
    MWTGG is certainly not a well-made movie, but Christopher Lee and Roger Moore were both great I thought in it. TWINE has always been my second-favorite Brosnan Bond film (after GE), and QoS has almost always been a Top 10 Bond film for me.

    I love all three! A pox on those who do not!
    :))

    Haha oh well. They're all really underrated
  • hildebrand_rarityhildebrand_rarity
    Posts: 316
    thelivingroyale wrote:
    You have the LTK theme song at no 2 but LALD is terrible? I think you need your ears checking ;)
    Probably because I'm younger and don't really appreciate the allure of that type of music. And regardless of the objective quality of the songs LTK works much better as a Bond theme, whereas LALD has more appeal as simply a regular song IMO.
  • chrisisallchrisisall Brosnan Defender Of The Realm
    Posts: 17,789
    Kids.... ;)
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