Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,715
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    Bond is not supposed to be a real agent or human, who bleeds and cries. He is supposed to go around cracking jokes, using gadgets and stopping crazy villians with strong henchmen and a lair with guards in uniform.

    Have you read the books? LOL

    In a word: no.

    I´m just a movie Bond fan. And no offense to Fleming fans, but my honest opinion is that Bond is supposed to be like Moore (and Brosnan & Connery to a certain degree). I enjoy films like LTK also, especially the gadgets and Q. Dalton gives a fine performance, but I prefer films like MR. I still watch the more serious movies quite often and enjoy them, but not as much as the lighter ones.

    About the bleeding thing, I don´t despise the slightest but I prefer the more impeccable Bond that Roger often portrayed.

    Don't be sorry - I find movies like MR, TMWTGG and DAF much closer to Fleming than Craig's films !!
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    Don't be sorry - I find movies like MR, TMWTGG and DAF much closer to Fleming than Craig's films !!

    Normal service has been resumed I see Mr DaltonCraig! Seeing as CR retained about 70% of the novel I'd be interested if you could point out similar levels of Fleming source material in MR, TMWTGG and DAF.
  • Posts: 1,082
    Still I fail to see how being more similar to a book would make a better movie.
  • edited March 2012 Posts: 5,745
    Still I fail to see how being more similar to a book would make a better movie.

    I was simply arguing your earlier point. You tried to define who Bond was. In order to do that, you can't go by the films, but from the source material. From the inception of the character. Bond is not silly, reliant on gadgets, and out to get crazy villains. He's an SAS type commando agent doing espionage for Her Majesty! In the majority of his books, the villains aren't even after the 'big picture'. Their actions usually only have local consequences.

    For those who enjoyed the books, a similar movie is preferable. But thats not to say I don't enjoy some of the more.. creative.. Bond adventures.

    For me the best Bond storyline is YOLT. Though its execution wasn't all that great, it blends book and movie Bond brilliantly. FRWL also manages the same effect.
  • Posts: 1,082
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    Still I fail to see how being more similar to a book would make a better movie.

    I was simply arguing your earlier point. You tried to define who Bond was. In order to do that, you can't go by the films, but from the source material. From the inception of the character. Bond is not silly, reliant on gadgets, and out to get crazy villains. He's an SAS agent doing espionage for Her Majesty! In the majority of his books, the villains aren't even after the 'big picture'. Their actions usually only have local consequences.

    For those who enjoyed the books, a similar movie is preferable. But thats not to say I don't enjoy some of the more.. creative.. Bond adventures.

    For me the best Bond storyline is YOLT. Though its execution wasn't all that great, it blends book and movie Bond brilliantly. FRWL also manages the same effect.

    I wasn´t directning my answer at you, as I get your point perfectly. But others I have spoken to say things like "movie a is better than movie b just because it follows the novel".

    I will say that my earlier point, about what Bond is, should have been "how I want Bond to be". And that I stand by.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    He's an SAS agent doing espionage for Her Majesty!

    The words of a man who is obviously extremely familiar with the books.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    edited March 2012 Posts: 15,715
    Don't be sorry - I find movies like MR, TMWTGG and DAF much closer to Fleming than Craig's films !!

    Normal service has been resumed I see Mr DaltonCraig! Seeing as CR retained about 70% of the novel I'd be interested if you could point out similar levels of Fleming source material in MR, TMWTGG and DAF.

    CR destroyed its original source, so no it it's not Flemingesque at all ! CR is not part of the franchise for me. It's not a Bond film in any way, nor is it Fleming in any way.

    MR, TMWTGG and DAF have the atmosphere, the colourful characters and the benign bizarre that is a trademark to Fleming. Which makes these 3 films very similar to Fleming, IMO. When I read a Fleming novel, it's as if I put Golden Gun or MR or DAF in the dvd player, and I always picture Moore Bond in the novels.

    IMO Fleming's work is much more larger-than life and dare I say funny than the Craig films. DAF, and TMWTGG really capture the spirit of Fleming's writings very well.

    Call me an idiot all you want, but I find the Fleming novels much more comical than some say here... like we are not reading the same books.
  • edited March 2012 Posts: 5,745
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    He's an SAS type commando agent doing espionage for Her Majesty!!

    The words of a man who is obviously extremely familiar with the books.

    Hardee har har. How would you put it?

    He's a deeply complex man, who is not better than questioning his role in the politics of his nation. He has a slight weakness in women, but seems to get over them rather quickly. He's very aware of his situations, and can get himself out of many sorts of situations. He's not beneath working in a team, or with a teammate, but feels questioned when assigned one (especially a woman, per CR). He's an ex special force ex-military bad ass, fit enough to do anything his job may require.

    That better?
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    He's an SAS type commando agent doing espionage for Her Majesty!!

    The words of a man who is obviously extremely familiar with the books.

    Hardee har har. How would you put it?

    He's a deeply complex man, who is not better than questioning his role in the politics of his nation. He has a slight weakness in women, but seems to get over them rather quickly. He's very aware of his situations, and can get himself out of many sorts of situations. He's not beneath working in a team, or with a teammate, but feels questioned when assigned one (especially a woman, per CR). He's an ex special forces bad ass, fit enough to do anything his job may require.

    That better?

    No. Not really. Ian Flemings James Bond has no connection to the SAS and has never worked in special forces.

    Commander James Bond CMG, RNVR is an ex navy Commander who now works for the Secret Service.

    Shit just noticed that you wrote 'SAS type' which I missed first time round so you would have been entitled to slap me down if you hadnt followed it up with 'hes ex special forces' which he most certainly isnt.
  • edited March 2012 Posts: 5,745
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    He's an SAS type commando agent doing espionage for Her Majesty!!

    The words of a man who is obviously extremely familiar with the books.

    Hardee har har. How would you put it?

    He's a deeply complex man, who is not better than questioning his role in the politics of his nation. He has a slight weakness in women, but seems to get over them rather quickly. He's very aware of his situations, and can get himself out of many sorts of situations. He's not beneath working in a team, or with a teammate, but feels questioned when assigned one (especially a woman, per CR). He's an ex special forces bad ass, fit enough to do anything his job may require.

    That better?

    No. Not really. Ian Flemings James Bond has no connection to the SAS and has never worked in special forces.

    Commander James Bond CMG, RNVR is an ex navy Commander who now works for the Secret Service.

    Shit just noticed that you wrote 'SAS type' which I missed first time round so you would have been entitled to slap me down if you hadnt followed it up with 'hes ex special forces' which he most certainly isnt.

    Oops. Watching Killer Elite and they drop SAS like 1.000.000 times. Must of just blended it. My baaaaaaaaaad. We'll go with.. special forces-type ;)

    And to be fair.. "former SAS-types" thats what you get for letting films brainwash you.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    edited March 2012 Posts: 9,117
    Don't be sorry - I find movies like MR, TMWTGG and DAF much closer to Fleming than Craig's films !!

    Normal service has been resumed I see Mr DaltonCraig! Seeing as CR retained about 70% of the novel I'd be interested if you could point out similar levels of Fleming source material in MR, TMWTGG and DAF.

    CR destroyed its original source, so no it it's not Flemingesque at all ! CR is not part of the franchise for me. It's not a Bond film in any way, nor is it Fleming in any way.

    MR, TMWTGG and DAF have the atmosphere, the colourful characters and the benign bizarre that is a trademark to Fleming. Which makes these 3 films very similar to Fleming, IMO. When I read a Fleming novel, it's as if I put Golden Gun or MR or DAF in the dvd player, and I always picture Moore Bond in the novels.

    IMO Fleming's work is much more larger-than life and dare I say funny than the Craig films. DAF, and TMWTGG really capture the spirit of Fleming's writings very well.

    Call me an idiot all you want, but I find the Fleming novels much more comical than some say here... like we are not reading the same books.

    We are talking about CR 2006 are we not CR67 here? You know the film that once it gets to Montenegro is probably the closest we have to a straight adaptation of a Fleming novel since OHMSS?

    I'll give you that DAF, TMWTGG and MR have a Fleming benign/bizarre atmosphere somewhere in their DNA but for all the good elements (Wint and Kidd, Scaramanga, Nick Nack, the centrifuge, Corinnes death) they are outweighed by laughable ones which have to place in the Fleming Bond universe (elephants playing the slots, moon buggys, Blofeld in drag, JW Pepper, Kung Fu schoolgirls, Jaws becoming a clown, that f**king pigeon, Bond in space).

    Not saying CR is perfect but its the biggest dose of Fleming we've had since Felixes maiming in LTK.
    JWESTBROOK wrote:
    Oops. Watching Killer Elite and they drop SAS like 1.000.000 times. Must of just blended it. My baaaaaaaaaad. We'll go with.. special forces-type ;)

    And to be fair.. "former SAS-types" thats what you get for letting films brainwash you.

    I can live with 'special forces type' although we are verging dangerously close to Andy McNab territory. On this occasion I will let you off sir.

    Is Killer Elite worth a watch? Heard it was supposed to be the bollocks and then it sort of got released and sank without a trace.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,715
    We are talking about CR 2006 are we not CR67 here? You know the film that once it gets to Montenegro is probably the closest we have to a straight adaptation of a Fleming novel since OHMSS?

    CR 2006 destroyed the original novel. There's not an ounce of Fleming in that film... for me it's just Bourne and Statham blended together.

  • Posts: 4,813
    I won't agree or disagree with that-- but you can't deny it brought in a ton of new viewers and it was a shock of energy to the Bond franchise. I was in College at the time CR was released-- I of course was counting down the days but I also remember hearing such positive feedback from TONS of other students who, before, didn't give a damn about Bond one way or the other!
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,715
    I won't agree or disagree with that-- but you can't deny it brought in a ton of new viewers and it was a shock of energy to the Bond franchise. I was in College at the time CR was released-- I of course was counting down the days but I also remember hearing such positive feedback from TONS of other students who, before, didn't give a damn about Bond one way or the other!

    I am glad CR brought new fans to the franchise - but IMO it's still the 2nd worst Bond film in the franchise.

    Now don't get me wrong, as a film, I would rank CR in the top 20 films of the 2000's. As a Bond film though, it's just wrong.

  • Posts: 1,082
    CR is for me like selling your soul for attendance. It´s like AC/DC starting to play pop.
    It´s not a Bond film, but still a good action film. Literally of course it is a Bond film.
    I also think I have a problem with the praise it gets, I mean, people praise it despite the fact that it is the least Bondian movie in the series, it obviously tries to be so tough, modern and serious and contains terrible drama.

    My sister said she liked it because it wasn´t a normal Bond film, and she hates those. She also said that part of the success the movie had was because the love story interested the female audience.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Every time I re-read Fleming, I cannot feel this "bizarre/benign atmosphere" anywhere at all. I don't know, maybe it's just something I miss, but I'm certainly not incapable of feeling it when I watch Moore's films. Fleming's Bond feels much closer to Dalton, Craig and Connery than Lazenby and Moore (with Brosnan coming in-between all of them).

    Here is one thing I stand by no matter what I'm watching/reading/playing/writing: If the characters have no emotion, why are they even there? Duty alone is no reason to live.
  • edited March 2012 Posts: 11,189
    Of all the actors that have played Bond I have to admit Moore is the one I've pictured the least in the relitively few times I've read Fleming.

    A good example of this "bizarre" atmosphere would probably be the "Castle of Death" in YOLT. In that book a vengeful Bond is sent out on assignment to hunt down Blofeld at the "Castle of Death". A place with a poisonous garden that ultimately leads to the death of anyone who enters it.

    Along the way Bond witnesses a ninja army in training. This army were each hand-picked when they were infants and their genitals were altered so that they couldn't feel pain when faced with direct contact (i.e. when someone kicked them in the groin during a fight).

    In fairness YOLT is probably one of the most extreme novels but its a good example of Fleming at his most "quirky".
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,715
    Every time I re-read Fleming, I cannot feel this "bizarre/benign atmosphere" anywhere at all. I don't know, maybe it's just something I miss, but I'm certainly not incapable of feeling it when I watch Moore's films. Fleming's Bond feels much closer to Dalton, Craig and Connery than Lazenby and Moore (with Brosnan coming in-between all of them).

    Here is one thing I stand by no matter what I'm watching/reading/playing/writing: If the characters have no emotion, why are they even there? Duty alone is no reason to live.

    Craig for me is by far the least close to Fleming.
  • Posts: 11,189
    For me Moore is. I know, like all the other actors he had his Fleming-esque moments but he was probably the most inherently "likeable" of all the Bond's. He was like a loveable, suave uncle.

    As much as I love Moore as Bond Fleming never intended Bond to be that likeable.
  • Posts: 7,653
    I won't agree or disagree with that-- but you can't deny it brought in a ton of new viewers and it was a shock of energy to the Bond franchise. I was in College at the time CR was released-- I of course was counting down the days but I also remember hearing such positive feedback from TONS of other students who, before, didn't give a damn about Bond one way or the other!

    As did Brosnan with GE at that time.

    We will undoubtely say a similar thing about the next actor.

  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    Bond is not supposed to be a real agent or human, who bleeds and cries. He is supposed to go around cracking jokes, using gadgets and stopping crazy villians with strong henchmen and a lair with guards in uniform.
    Someone obviously hasn't read the novels. You know, those things portraying Bond as he's SUPPOSED TO BE.
  • Posts: 1,082
    I haven´t read the novels, and I just stated what I think Bond is supposed to be. I don´t mean that my opinion is a fact or anything.
  • edited March 2012 Posts: 11,189
    I haven´t read the novels, and I just stated what I think Bond is supposed to be. I don´t mean that my opinion is a fact or anything.

    The thing is @007RogerMoore, Bond as he was originally potrayed sometimes bled and got beaten up. In the MR book he is in fact once described as having a face "covered in blood". He didn't tell the kind of jokes Roger is well known for. As much as I enjoy Roger he wasn't really that Fleming-like IMO.
  • Agent007391Agent007391 Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
    Posts: 7,854
    Don't forget the torture scene in CR (the novel). Even the writers of DAD felt it would be truer to Fleming if he didn't miraculously escape the NK prison, which is something I'm certain Moore would do.
  • Posts: 7,653
    BAIN123 wrote:
    I haven´t read the novels, and I just stated what I think Bond is supposed to be. I don´t mean that my opinion is a fact or anything.

    The thing is @007RogerMoore , Bond as he was originally potrayed sometimes bled and got beaten up. In the MR book he is in fact once described as having a face "covered in blood". He didn't tell the kind of jokes Roger is well known for. As much as I enjoy Roger he wasn't really that Fleming-like IMO.

    He occasionaly was very well played by Roger Moore. And true to Fleming.

  • Posts: 11,189
    Don't forget the torture scene in CR (the novel). Even the writers of DAD felt it would be truer to Fleming if he didn't miraculously escape the NK prison, which is something I'm certain Moore would do.

    Exactly. I remember reading how Bond screams (like he does in the film).

    Agreed St Mark but I think those "darker" moments are probably in the minority.
  • Posts: 1,082
    I see your point that Bond is supposed to be what his creator created, but to me that is not the case. I think the books and the films are not the same thing.
    I think Bond is supposed to be like Roger Moore, even if that is different from the original.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,715
    Bond is not supposed to be a real agent or human, who bleeds and cries. He is supposed to go around cracking jokes, using gadgets and stopping crazy villians with strong henchmen and a lair with guards in uniform.
    Someone obviously hasn't read the novels. You know, those things portraying Bond as he's SUPPOSED TO BE.

    I have read the novels.. and IMO DAF and TMWTGG are 2 closest to Fleming the movies have ever got.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I see your point that Bond is supposed to be what his creator created, but to me that is not the case. I think the books and the films are not the same thing.
    I think Bond is supposed to be like Roger Moore, even if that is different from the original.

    I'm not saying that Bond HAS to be exactly how he should be originally. If that was the case Bond would have died out a long time ago. All I'm saying is that originally Bond was most of those things you said he shouldn't be.
  • Posts: 1,082
    Yes, and I´m sure you are right about that. But when I say how Bond is supposed to be, I mean what I want him to be or think he should be. I don´t mean that the original was like Moore or anything.

    Instead of saying "Bond is supposed to be" I should have said "I think Bond should be like this in the movies".
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