Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    Posts: 1,130
    josiah wrote: »
    Szonana wrote: »
    The problem Dalton is a little difficult to explain. He is belivable that ladies like him and he likes woman but he is not belivable as a womanzier he is too much of a husband material for Bond.

    The other Bonds reflected more that they could be with any woman in their way and enjoyed being with all the others.
    @Szonana
    It's been a couple years since I read the Fleming novels (and anyone please feel free to step in & correct me if I'm wrong on this point) but I seem to recall Bond only really being interested in one woman per book (with the exception of maybe 2 or 3 of the 14 books). I agree 100% that Dalton is very different in this department and more of an old school romantic in a way than a womanizer, but I think that was part of his wanting to return to the novels (which will not be to everyone's taste), but I think that's why he is so different than the others. I've also heard the 80s AIDS epidemic may have had something to do with this. I have a difficult time ranking actors. I believe I tried to in one thread, but I really do enjoy them all.


    Ok i guess here comes a controversial confession instead of an opinion


    I haven't read the books i only know abiut what Fleming wanted fir Bond and everything related to fleming thanks to shat ive read from the fans and a bitt of googling so I can't tell you if you are right or wrong of The Books having just one woman.


    But yes dalton was more of a traditional old school Romantic guy and yes maybe thats what makes him different and made a lot of sense he had only one Bond girl for film because thats how Dalton seems to be.

    And 80s aids or not i Think it was better for Dalton he didn't get many girls since he is not that way. i bet he can a make girl love him and he will fall for her again but he is not that naughy boy the other Bond actors were




  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited March 2016 Posts: 23,883
    Szonana wrote: »
    And 80s aids or not i Think it was better for Dalton he didn't get many girls since he is not that way. i bet he can a make girl love him and he will fall for her again but he is not that naughy boy the other Bond actors were
    But that's also the way I see Craig. Sure, they've shoehorned in that he is a womanizer in SF & SP, but to me something seems off in the seduction dept, especially in SP. We're supposed to believe it, but it didn't appear convincing. Difficult to explain.

    He actually seemed most comfortable in QoS to me, when he was hiding from mother (sorry, I meant M) and not doing anything with Camille.
  • Posts: 1,386
    Szonana wrote: »
    i bet he can a make girl love him and he will fall for her again but he is not that naughy boy the other Bond actors were




    Yes, I agree. Dalton was not a believable playboy.
  • Posts: 7,415
    You are quite correct in that the Aids epidemic was at its height in the 80's. The producers acknowledged that it would have been distasteful for Bond to be sleeping around in the manner of Connery/Moore Bonds. His was a more romantic 007, and thus enhanced Daltons relationship with Kara as the most believable in the series. Most of Bonds leading ladies were simply sex fodder over the years, so maybe that's why people had trouble accepting this new Bond. The criticisms of Dalton as an actor I find laughable. In TLD he gives one of the best performances of any Bond. he encompassed all aspects of Flemings Bond, as he said himself, Bond is not a Superman, he's a tarnished man, he was vulnerable, he made mistakes, he has vices (smokes, drinks, gambles). he had problems with authority. he really hates his job, but is very good at it, ("Go ahead and tell M, if he fires me, I'll thank him for it!").The humour didn't always work, but you must remember, TLD was written for Moore, and only adapted when
    Dalton was cast. In LTK his close friend and ally, Felix, was maimed and his wife killed. This brought back memories of Tracys murder, and it blinded him into murderous revenge, of course he was dour. I think LTK had one of the best storys in the series ,with a brilliant villain in Robert Davi, who played against Daltons Bond beautifully.
    Dalton purposefully went back to the novels to try and get a grasp of Flemings 007. Fleming wasn't always clearly descriptive of Bond, but I salute and admire Dalton for trying (and succeeding) to put his own stamp on the role and show us the real James Bond, Flemings Bond! That's why I think he is the best and my own favourite. Craig runs him close, but I will always stick by Dalton
  • Posts: 15,114
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'll add my own controversial statement about LTK in regard to what has been said above: LTK is not the character driven drama his fans sometimes claim it is and the drama is barely more than an excuse to get the plot in motion. That doesn't make the movie bad but it does make it average.

    I agree. It tries to be more character driven but the setup between Bond, Della, Felix and Sanchez feels very generic a lot of the time. Hedison's performance also ranges from good to pretty bad.

    The only actor in the cast who could really work a character driven drama was Dalton. Okay, maybe not but the rest is overall more lightweight in that department. There is the potential to make Lupe Lamore a great vulnerable Bond girl, but Talisa Soto while beautiful does not exactly have the acting skills to do anything else than look pretty. Robert Davi is menacing as Sanchez... But he's a rather stereotypical drug lord, he is fine as an action movie villain (if a bit commonplace in the 80s, which did not help either), but does not really belong to a a character driven drama. The revenge aspect is pretty much a given motivation and is never truly explored. And the friendship with Felix Leiter, who was at this time barely a name on interchangeable faces, does not really convey the revenge motivation.

    And I don't dislike LTK, it has moved up in my liking since I first saw it (I hated it then), but I think it is not what many of its fans think it is. I suspect John Glen did not care much about developing the drama and wanted to make a good action movie with a plausible plot.
  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I'll add my own controversial statement about LTK in regard to what has been said above: LTK is not the character driven drama his fans sometimes claim it is and the drama is barely more than an excuse to get the plot in motion. That doesn't make the movie bad but it does make it average.

    I agree. It tries to be more character driven but the setup between Bond, Della, Felix and Sanchez feels very generic a lot of the time. Hedison's performance also ranges from good to pretty bad.

    I think you might have hit upon the key difference between TLD and LTK. The ensemble acting just isn't as good - and that's including Dalton who is far too theatrical.

    Maryam d'Abo, John Rhys Davies,Thomas Wheatley and Andreas Wisniewiski are just much better to watch than Carey Lowell, David Hedison, Talis Soto (sooo bad), Priscilla Barnes, Everet McGill and Don Stroud.

    The exception I suppose is the villains as Koskov and Whitaker are weak and although I do like Krabbe's performance Davi is far better. Also such a shame Del Toro gets such a criminally short amount of screen time that he can't be considered anywhere near one of the great henchman.

    Although this is not restricted to the acting. The cinnematography, locations and tone all just feel a bit off.

    I think TLD possibly succeeds better because it drops Dalton's Bond into the traditional Bond universe (a hangover of the Rog era) whereas LTK changes the universe to suit his Bond and in doing that loses something and ends up a bit flat.

    I'm all for having Fleming's Bond up on screen but he needs to remain grounded in Fleming's heightened universe. LTK loses sight of this for me and hence just doesn't quite feel like a proper Bond film.

  • Posts: 15,114
    I always felt like LTK is an action movie where Bond has a long cameo.

    Jerome Krabbe is an excellent actor and could have potentially been a great villain, but he was let down by a poorly written character. Everything is good in TLD except the villains. Okay, so the henchman is good, but he is still a copy of Grant.
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    Posts: 1,130
    bondjames wrote: »
    Szonana wrote: »
    And 80s aids or not i Think it was better for Dalton he didn't get many girls since he is not that way. i bet he can a make girl love him and he will fall for her again but he is not that naughy boy the other Bond actors were
    But that's also the way I see Craig. Sure, they've shoehorned in that he is a womanizer in SF & SP, but to me something seems off in the seduction dept, especially in SP. We're supposed to believe it, but it didn't appear convincing. Difficult to explain.

    He actually seemed most comfortable in QoS to me, when he was hiding from mother (sorry, I meant M) and not doing anything with Camille.

    That scene with Camile was funny. I loved how she said your mother? And he replied she'd like to think so.

    But i did buy Craig as a womanizer ladies man.
    Spectre changed everything for me regards to Daniel Craig. I used to think he is a great as a Blunt instrument assasian but he he is not the Classic Bond of the previous films but Spectre made me change my mind and see in a much different way his Bond his previous films.

    Its like Spectre introduced me to whole different Craig.


  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Szonana wrote: »
    Its like Spectre introduced me to whole different Craig.
    I'm glad it worked for you in that way. For me, it just made me realize that I preferred him being the tortured blunt instrument, and am looking forward to a new actor to take the mantle if they proceed with this more light hearted approach going forward (meaning I don't find him all that credible compared to other actors in this respect).
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    Posts: 1,130
    bondjames wrote: »
    Szonana wrote: »
    Its like Spectre introduced me to whole different Craig.
    I'm glad it worked for you in that way. For me, it just made me realize that I preferred him being the tortured blunt instrument, and am looking forward to a new actor to take the mantle if they proceed with this more light hearted approach going forward (meaning I don't find him all that credible compared to other actors in this respect).


    I wouldn't mind a change of actor but i think it would be great if Craig can do one more in that more light hearted approach. It would make a lot of sense to get one more film with him as the classic Bond since his 4 films have been the development of that Bond with Skyfall snd Spectre getting the clossest to it.

    Just one more film with a Mission by the numbers would be fantastic.
    The perfect close to his tenure and latter let the next actor to follow him in that vain.


  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Szonana wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Szonana wrote: »
    Its like Spectre introduced me to whole different Craig.
    I'm glad it worked for you in that way. For me, it just made me realize that I preferred him being the tortured blunt instrument, and am looking forward to a new actor to take the mantle if they proceed with this more light hearted approach going forward (meaning I don't find him all that credible compared to other actors in this respect).


    I wouldn't mind a change of actor but i think it would be great if Craig can do one more in that more light hearted approach. It would make a lot of sense to get one more film with him as the classic Bond since his 4 films have been the development of that Bond with Skyfall snd Spectre getting the clossest to it.

    Just one more film with a Mission by the numbers would be fantastic.
    The perfect close to his tenure and latter let the next actor to follow him in that vain.



    Yes!
  • Posts: 12,837
    Szonana wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Szonana wrote: »
    Its like Spectre introduced me to whole different Craig.
    I'm glad it worked for you in that way. For me, it just made me realize that I preferred him being the tortured blunt instrument, and am looking forward to a new actor to take the mantle if they proceed with this more light hearted approach going forward (meaning I don't find him all that credible compared to other actors in this respect).


    I wouldn't mind a change of actor but i think it would be great if Craig can do one more in that more light hearted approach. It would make a lot of sense to get one more film with him as the classic Bond since his 4 films have been the development of that Bond with Skyfall snd Spectre getting the clossest to it.

    Just one more film with a Mission by the numbers would be fantastic.
    The perfect close to his tenure and latter let the next actor to follow him in that vain.



    Yes!

    If another Craig film happens (and I'm skeptical that it will), it won't be a mission by the numbers, I think it'll almost certainly be a continuation of the SP story. And honestly I wouldn't like a mission by the numbers film with Craig at this point, it'd just feel like a jarring end to his era after watching his Bond develop and that storyline come to its natural conclusion in SP imo.

    Anyway, my controversial opinion is that You Know My Name should have played over Spectre's credits. The standard Bond theme playing over the credits is pretty played out at this point imo and playing You Know My Name, which unlike most Bond themes was actually relevant to the narrative, the themes of the film and also Bond's character, would have been a nice way to bring things full circle I think.
  • The AIDS crisis may have limited Dalton's chances to play a womanizer, but his dour take on Bond didn't help either. Everything felt so forced with him, which was a marked difference from the effortless grace of Moore's Bond.
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 1,817
    Extremely controversial opinion: The Experience of Love is beautiful.

    Listening to it right now actually.

    The funniest thing I've read in a long time.

    The fact that you have other people agreeing that the musical equivalent of Rory Kinnear is good just goes to explain why the likes of Trump and IS have followers.

    There really are some worrying people out there.

    I'm afraid I can't hear you @TheWizardOfIce over Eric Serra's excellent 'A Pleasant Drive in St. Petersburg'.
  • DaltonCraig007DaltonCraig007 They say, "Evil prevails when good men fail to act." What they ought to say is, "Evil prevails."
    Posts: 15,715
    Roger Moore is my favorite Bond, almost to the point of ranking all 7 of his films in my top 10.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    The TMWTGG slide whistle is not all bad, considering it happens at a moment where you see J dub-ya's ass right afterwards. And in a film with a sumo wrestler getting a wedgie, 2 schoolgirls defeat an experienced karate team, and Bond pushes a little boy into a river.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited March 2016 Posts: 6,288
    GBF wrote: »
    tanaka123 wrote: »
    I agree Moore was better than Brosnan at doing cold blooded killer, as much as he played the light touch. Brosnan's scene with Renard in the bunker in TWINE is some of the worst acting of a Bond across the series in my opinion.

    But what about the killings of Ourumov, Dr. Kaufmann and Elektra? I have always thought that had been great sequences.

    Agree. Brosnan is better at comedy and lightness than drama, at least in the Bond films.

    Controversial: GE established the pastiche that really sank his last three films and the homages/callbacks that still plague the series.
  • Birdleson wrote: »
    It's the fact that it occurs during one of the great Bond stunts. It's a distraction and turns it into a joke (regardless of the scenes that you mention). It really hurts the moment.

    Indeed. Imagine how much better it could've been with literally anything else playing over it. Even back in 1974, I felt awed at the stunt and cringed at the sound effect at the same time. Sort of like the Tarzan yell of OP, it was never really funny even for its time so I'm not sure why they put it in.
  • Posts: 1,386
    w2bond wrote: »
    The TMWTGG slide whistle is not all bad, considering it happens at a moment where you see J dub-ya's ass right afterwards. And in a film with a sumo wrestler getting a wedgie, 2 schoolgirls defeat an experienced karate team, and Bond pushes a little boy into a river.

    I applaud your thread-appropriate post. :D
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    The side-whistle, the double-take pigeon, the vanishing Austin Martin, Connery turning Japanese, the laser fight in space, Mommy...was...verybad, Christmas, the Beach Boys snowboarding and more such stuff...

    ...all belong to the Bond franchise and add to the overall image of Bond, as the cinematic Bond also, always has been about various forms of humour.
  • GBFGBF
    Posts: 3,197
    The side-whistle, the double-take pigeon, the vanishing Austin Martin, Connery turning Japanese, the laser fight in space, Mommy...was...verybad, Christmas, the Beach Boys snowboarding and more such stuff...

    ...all belong to the Bond franchise and add to the overall image of Bond, as the cinematic Bond also, always has been about various forms of humour.

    I totally agree :-)
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 1,817
    The side-whistle, the double-take pigeon, the vanishing Austin Martin, Connery turning Japanese, the laser fight in space, Mommy...was...verybad, Christmas, the Beach Boys snowboarding and more such stuff...

    ...all belong to the Bond franchise and add to the overall image of Bond, as the cinematic Bond also, always has been about various forms of humour.

    Perhaps, but the CGI tsunami from DAD I can probably do without...
  • edited March 2016 Posts: 1,817
    I sort of have a controversial opinion or a controversial experience with the safe-cracking scene in OHMSS.

    I think it is a massive cheat (five minutes of suspense that go nowhere and has no pay-off) and technically speaking, an in-universe waste of time given that he cracked one in a few minutes in YOLT.
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    Posts: 1,130
    The side-whistle, the double-take pigeon, the vanishing Austin Martin, Connery turning Japanese, the laser fight in space, Mommy...was...verybad, Christmas, the Beach Boys snowboarding and more such stuff...

    ...all belong to the Bond franchise and add to the overall image of Bond, as the cinematic Bond also, always has been about various forms of humour.

    Perhaps, but the CGI tsunami from DAD I can probably do without...


    Well its something i can turn a blind eye on, its a small flaw in a very entretatining Bond flick. Just like Christmas Jones in the world is not enough

  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    And I wasn't talking of special effects, there is enough of it in many Bond movies from GF to SF
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    I sort of have a controversial opinion or a controversial experience with the safe-cracking scene in OHMSS.

    I think it is a massive cheat (five minutes of suspense that go nowhere and has no pay-off) and technically speaking, an in-universe waste of time given that he cracked one in a few minutes in YOLT.

    Probably not controversial. It's definitely a moment in the film where it drags. However, Barry's music is very suspenseful here
  • SzonanaSzonana Mexico
    Posts: 1,130
    And I wasn't talking of special effects, there is enough of it in many Bond movies from GF to SF

    Don't worry about it, even the most perfect film has its flaws if start nip ticking. I ususally dont do it much and enjoy almost every film for what it is Bond or not Bond.
    But im even nicer with Bond flicks.

  • TheWizardOfIceTheWizardOfIce 'One of the Internet's more toxic individuals'
    Posts: 9,117
    w2bond wrote: »
    I sort of have a controversial opinion or a controversial experience with the safe-cracking scene in OHMSS.

    I think it is a massive cheat (five minutes of suspense that go nowhere and has no pay-off) and technically speaking, an in-universe waste of time given that he cracked one in a few minutes in YOLT.

    Probably not controversial. It's definitely a moment in the film where it drags. However, Barry's music is very suspenseful here

    I wouldn't say it drags and it's a sequence I really enjoy but it takes up quite a lot of screen time and only moves the story forward slightly. I can see how it was cut out of some versions for TV to keep the running time down as the general public really aren't going to miss it.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I love that safe cracking scene. Lazenby and Barry both manage to make it very suspenseful imo.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    I love that safe cracking scene. Lazenby and Barry both manage to make it very suspenseful imo.

    One of the best scenes in any Bond movie and very authentic as they were really in Berne with the main government building in the background
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