Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited May 2017 Posts: 13,978
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I don't agree on both accounts I'm afraid. The gunbarrels are an essential part of the Bond films for me, it is a 'Bond film's signature' if you will. I would be heavily disappointed if they were omitted. I'm even so strongly in favour of the traditional gunbarrel sequences that I think it hurts my enjoyment of SF that it doesn't have the scene at the beginning.

    Bingo! Four films into the rebooted series, and they still can't stop fannying with the gunbarrel. What was it last time? Fading it out prematurely for "The dead are alive". Fleming have mercy. It isn't supposed to signal Bond now being a 00, or the state of his mind, or any other arty farty reason. Pure and simple, it is just like the header on headed note paper. Maybe with the next film they get it right, but I won't hold my breath. Directors should either play in the same sandbox as Young/Hunt/Glen etc.. and with the same toys, or stay away.
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    About the music, I think a good/bad movie score can make a film more or less enjoyable as well. For instance, I think the score of TND makes it a better movie. I also listen to film scores on a regular basis, so it's clearly important for me.

    Make that TMWTGG and I would agree. I like TND, so breaking it down doesn't change my opinion. But TMWTGG has one of my favourite scores. I don't care who does the score for the next film, so long as they bring back the Bond theme in all it's glory, throughout the film.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,120
    @MajorDSmythe I like TMWTGG score too. I have a soft spot for the whole film actually.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    @MajorDSmythe I like TMWTGG score too. I have a soft spot for the whole film actually.
    +1. TMWTGG is a sentimental favourite on many counts and the score is Barry experimenting for a new sound, and it's great.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    The gunbarrels are an essential part of the Bond films for me, it is a 'Bond film's signature' if you will. I would be heavily disappointed if they were omitted. I'm even so strongly in favour of the traditional gunbarrel sequences that I think it hurts my enjoyment of SF that it doesn't have the scene at the beginning.

    I agree. Pissing about with it is sacrilege imo. I don't care how good the film is. What Maurice Binder did is a work of art. It's cinematic iconography at it's most original. I don't mind what tone the film takes, what tropes or ingredients they choose to employ, I don't care about them going out on limb with their storytelling, but when you remove that intro you sacrifice one of the great adrenaline pumping moments in cinema.

    Putting the gunbarrel at the end is one of the most ridiculous ideas EON have ever entertained. Once you've clawed yourself through the relentless ads and the film certificate appears you're ready to go... seeing those white dots appear is epic and definitive. The orchestration gives you a little glimmer of tone and bam! You're entering Bond's world again, like it's the first time.

    It cannot be beaten and it should not be f***** with again. Whether the ensuing film is decent is largely irrelevant, nothing compares to the hope and expectation you feel when Bond struts across the screen.

    As good as SF may be, and as nicely lit and framed as the opening shot may be, it's the not the gunbarrel and Mendes isn't Binder.

    As Bond fans we should be proud of this indelible moment in cinema. It's worth defending.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Agreed, I'm in the same camp of those who wants the gunbarrel right at the beginning, untouched. It's simple yet iconic, and it's a damn shame we haven't had a proper one during Craig's entire run.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    RC7 wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    The gunbarrels are an essential part of the Bond films for me, it is a 'Bond film's signature' if you will. I would be heavily disappointed if they were omitted. I'm even so strongly in favour of the traditional gunbarrel sequences that I think it hurts my enjoyment of SF that it doesn't have the scene at the beginning.

    I agree. Pissing about with it is sacrilege imo. I don't care how good the film is. What Maurice Binder did is a work of art. It's cinematic iconography at it's most original. I don't mind what tone the film takes, what tropes or ingredients they choose to employ, I don't care about them going out on limb with their storytelling, but when you remove that intro you sacrifice one of the great adrenaline pumping moments in cinema.

    Putting the gunbarrel at the end is one of the most ridiculous ideas EON have ever entertained. Once you've clawed yourself through the relentless ads and the film certificate appears you're ready to go... seeing those white dots appear is epic and definitive. The orchestration gives you a little glimmer of tone and bam! You're entering Bond's world again, like it's the first time.

    It cannot be beaten and it should not be f***** with again. Whether the ensuing film is decent is largely irrelevant, nothing compares to the hope and expectation you feel when Bond struts across the screen.

    As good as SF may be, and as nicely lit and framed as the opening shot may be, it's the not the gunbarrel and Mendes isn't Binder.

    As Bond fans we should be proud of this indelible moment in cinema. It's worth defending.

    YES! Agreed 100%.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    For a huge majority of us, the gunbarrel was the first we saw of Bond.

    When I saw my first Bond film, there was no internet and no Bond on video or tv. Seeing that gunbarrel on the big screen was a chill inducing experience. I felt the same when it was finally back in SPECTRE.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    I miss the UA logo and music prior to the GB as well. MGM's logo is nice, but UA kicked butt.
  • Posts: 787
    Well, these are supposed to be 'controversial' opinions, right?
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    bondjames wrote: »
    I miss the UA logo and music prior to the GB as well. MGM's logo is nice, but UA kicked butt.

    This one's for you, @bondjames.

    united-artists-o.gif
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Beautiful @MajorDSmythe. Just beautiful. Love the music that accompanies it as well.

    This is my favourite (I think it was the last iteration):
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    That one was my favorite as well. Makes me want to watch GoldenEye.
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    Murdock wrote: »
    That one was my favorite as well. Makes me want to watch GoldenEye.

    I was thinking the same thing. Always a good idea!
  • Posts: 16,163
    RC7 wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    The gunbarrels are an essential part of the Bond films for me, it is a 'Bond film's signature' if you will. I would be heavily disappointed if they were omitted. I'm even so strongly in favour of the traditional gunbarrel sequences that I think it hurts my enjoyment of SF that it doesn't have the scene at the beginning.

    I agree. Pissing about with it is sacrilege imo. I don't care how good the film is. What Maurice Binder did is a work of art. It's cinematic iconography at it's most original. I don't mind what tone the film takes, what tropes or ingredients they choose to employ, I don't care about them going out on limb with their storytelling, but when you remove that intro you sacrifice one of the great adrenaline pumping moments in cinema.

    Putting the gunbarrel at the end is one of the most ridiculous ideas EON have ever entertained. Once you've clawed yourself through the relentless ads and the film certificate appears you're ready to go... seeing those white dots appear is epic and definitive. The orchestration gives you a little glimmer of tone and bam! You're entering Bond's world again, like it's the first time.

    It cannot be beaten and it should not be f***** with again. Whether the ensuing film is decent is largely irrelevant, nothing compares to the hope and expectation you feel when Bond struts across the screen.

    As good as SF may be, and as nicely lit and framed as the opening shot may be, it's the not the gunbarrel and Mendes isn't Binder.

    As Bond fans we should be proud of this indelible moment in cinema. It's worth defending.

    Well said. I agree about SF as I almost never pop it in due to the PTS missing that critical element. That absence leaves a complete void in what otherwise might have been one of my favorite PTS openings in the series.
    Binder's logo is one of the most iconic images in film history. Up until the Craig era pretty much anyone who had ever been to a movie in their life would probably recognize that image. It really is a rush when seeing a new Bond film for the first time- that moment the Bond Theme and the white dots kick in. It's a huge cinematic experience that an entire ERA of the Bond series has missed. SP brought it back, but still didn't quite do Binder justice.
    If I were rating the Bond films with four stars being the highest, both QoS and SF would get docked an entire star for putting the gunbarrel at the end. My feeling has always been that the ONLY Bond not to start with the GB should have remained NSNA for obvious reasons. I give CR a pass because it's reminiscent of DR NO in that it segues directly and seamlessly into the titles. Also symbolic as it represents Bond's first kill.
    To me dismissing and tampering with this iconic Bondian image is like spitting on Maurice Binder's grave. Disrespectful and unforgivable.
    Are audience's attention spans really that short that they can't sit thru 20 seconds of screen time for the gunbarrel? Effing A- even the Brosnan films sped the sequence up so we never got the full rendition the the Bond music for that sequence.
    A Bond film without the gunbarrel is like Halloween without pumpkins (or candy). Christmas without a well decorated tree and so forth.
    I can remember the times before VHS and DVD when television airings of the Bonds were the only way to see the films unless they were re-released or a new film was out. I can also remember being furious when the networks would omit the GB for commercial time.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @octofinger, as I said: there's a lot of passionate folks out there. ;)
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I don't agree on both accounts I'm afraid. The gunbarrels are an essential part of the Bond films for me, it is a 'Bond film's signature' if you will. I would be heavily disappointed if they were omitted. I'm even so strongly in favour of the traditional gunbarrel sequences that I think it hurts my enjoyment of SF that it doesn't have the scene at the beginning.

    About the music, I think a good/bad movie score can make a film more or less enjoyable as well. For instance, I think the score of TND makes it a better movie. I also listen to film scores on a regular basis, so it's clearly important for me.

    Totally agree on all counts @GoldenGun. The Gunbarrel is an essential part of my enjoyment of a Bond film.....and this was my main gripe with the Craig ere pre-Spectre.
  • Posts: 19,339
    RC7 wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    The gunbarrels are an essential part of the Bond films for me, it is a 'Bond film's signature' if you will. I would be heavily disappointed if they were omitted. I'm even so strongly in favour of the traditional gunbarrel sequences that I think it hurts my enjoyment of SF that it doesn't have the scene at the beginning.

    I agree. Pissing about with it is sacrilege imo. I don't care how good the film is. What Maurice Binder did is a work of art. It's cinematic iconography at it's most original. I don't mind what tone the film takes, what tropes or ingredients they choose to employ, I don't care about them going out on limb with their storytelling, but when you remove that intro you sacrifice one of the great adrenaline pumping moments in cinema.

    Putting the gunbarrel at the end is one of the most ridiculous ideas EON have ever entertained. Once you've clawed yourself through the relentless ads and the film certificate appears you're ready to go... seeing those white dots appear is epic and definitive. The orchestration gives you a little glimmer of tone and bam! You're entering Bond's world again, like it's the first time.

    It cannot be beaten and it should not be f***** with again. Whether the ensuing film is decent is largely irrelevant, nothing compares to the hope and expectation you feel when Bond struts across the screen.

    As good as SF may be, and as nicely lit and framed as the opening shot may be, it's the not the gunbarrel and Mendes isn't Binder.

    As Bond fans we should be proud of this indelible moment in cinema. It's worth defending.

    Spot on...mucking around with something as iconic as the gunbarrel is sacrilege and I have missed it immensely over the past 10 years +

    If it aint broke ,don't fix it....especially with something so iconic and special in cinematic history.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    barryt007 wrote: »
    RC7 wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    The gunbarrels are an essential part of the Bond films for me, it is a 'Bond film's signature' if you will. I would be heavily disappointed if they were omitted. I'm even so strongly in favour of the traditional gunbarrel sequences that I think it hurts my enjoyment of SF that it doesn't have the scene at the beginning.

    I agree. Pissing about with it is sacrilege imo. I don't care how good the film is. What Maurice Binder did is a work of art. It's cinematic iconography at it's most original. I don't mind what tone the film takes, what tropes or ingredients they choose to employ, I don't care about them going out on limb with their storytelling, but when you remove that intro you sacrifice one of the great adrenaline pumping moments in cinema.

    Putting the gunbarrel at the end is one of the most ridiculous ideas EON have ever entertained. Once you've clawed yourself through the relentless ads and the film certificate appears you're ready to go... seeing those white dots appear is epic and definitive. The orchestration gives you a little glimmer of tone and bam! You're entering Bond's world again, like it's the first time.

    It cannot be beaten and it should not be f***** with again. Whether the ensuing film is decent is largely irrelevant, nothing compares to the hope and expectation you feel when Bond struts across the screen.

    As good as SF may be, and as nicely lit and framed as the opening shot may be, it's the not the gunbarrel and Mendes isn't Binder.

    As Bond fans we should be proud of this indelible moment in cinema. It's worth defending.

    Spot on...mucking around with something as iconic as the gunbarrel is sacrilege and I have missed it immensely over the past 10 years +

    If it aint broke ,don't fix it....especially with something so iconic and special in cinematic history.

    +1

    Hear hear!
  • Posts: 3,333
    bondjames wrote: »
    I miss the UA logo and music prior to the GB as well. MGM's logo is nice, but UA kicked butt.

    This one's for you, @bondjames.

    united-artists-o.gif

    I can't find a GIF of the UA intro that used to proceed the GB from the 60's and 70's, but it looked pretty much like this...
    UnitedArtistsLogo1970s.jpg
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,120
    bondsum wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    I miss the UA logo and music prior to the GB as well. MGM's logo is nice, but UA kicked butt.

    This one's for you, @bondjames.

    united-artists-o.gif

    I can't find a GIF of the UA intro that used to proceed the GB from the 60's and 70's, but it looked pretty much like this...
    UnitedArtistsLogo1970s.jpg

    Makes me nostalgic, I think this was the one preceding the Dalton entries:

    latest?cb=20140810015137
  • Posts: 15,117
    Controversial opinion: the gadgets are not essential part of Bond. Other one: in 1987 people did not want a different Bond but a younger one.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: Other one: in 1987 people did not want a different Bond but a younger one.
    100% agreed.
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    @Ludovico, I couldn't agree more. It's no surprise that my favorite Bond films are those with very low amounts of gadgets, and when they do show up, they are more real world than not. I get that the over the top gadgets are now part of Bond after the 1970s really took it and ran with it, but it's one of the things I would heartily sacrifice from the formula if I needed to. Bond as a character is the key draw in the films, and it's far more satisfying to see him work through his problems using just his abilities instead of relying on a utility belt to solve them for him. At times you can tell how the plot of the film will progress, and how the villain will die, simply because of the very obvious and highly situational tool Q gives Bond. The gadgets can then be a very lazy plot device, or throw a wrench in the tonal works.

    Young was a master of having Bond use tools, while still having those tools become grounded in a reality and that he didn't push on the character all the time. Hunt took it even further, and gave Bond nothing but a safe cracker for his film, yet another grounded device. Thankfully the more earnest manner of the Craig films once again did away with the crazy stuff, and returned to Bond either using nothing at all on his missions, or tools that were grounded or, in the case of the DB10, items that didn't get too fantastical.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited May 2017 Posts: 8,395
    I don't think there's anything wrong with gadgets on there own. It's more a matter of jokey they are, and how they are implemented. GoldenEye has quite a few, but they aren't smashed in your face like some of the Moore films. The belt, the watch and the pen are all pretty understated, and used at a specific moment - not relied on too much.

    At certain points in a Bond script you need to feel like Bond is truly outmatched, and helpless. Would the train scene with Grant be more effective if Bond had said "quick, look over there!" And then judo chopped Grant on the back of the head? No, the briefcase was used effectively here to showcase Bonds vulnerability rather than his invulnerability.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    Yes, with gadgets it's all about how you use them. The Rolex at the end of LALD & the Lotus in TSWLM are two of my favourite scenes in any Bond film. The suspense was built up nicely in both cases (Bond being cut in the former) before he employed the gadget.

    It just shouldn't feel obligatory or 'inserted' which is how the Omega felt throughout Brosnan's turn (because they had a blooming gadget on the watch in nearly every film).
  • 0BradyM0Bondfanatic70BradyM0Bondfanatic7 Quantum Floral Arrangements: "We Have Petals Everywhere"
    Posts: 28,694
    I don't think there's anything wrong with gadgets on there own. It's more a matter of jokey they are, and how they are implemented. GoldenEye has quite a few, but they aren't smashed in your face like some of the Moore films. The belt, the watch and the pen are all pretty understated, and used at a specific moment - not relied on too much.

    At certain points in a Bond script you need to feel like Bond is truly outmatched, and helpless. Would the train scene with Grant be more effective if Bond had said "quick, look over there!" And then judo chopped Grant on the back of the head? No, the briefcase was used effectively here to showcase Bonds vulnerability rather than his invulnerability.

    Very true, @Mendes4Lyfe. That FRWL moment also adds a layer of doubt or suspense, as you see what Bond is trying to do with the offer of the gold coins for a cigarette, but you realize that for his plan to work he has to get Grant to not only retrieve the case but also open it the way he wants it. It's never a surefire thing that it's going to work, and the element of luck tells us that things may not go as expected.
  • A trick they used in LALD that I remember being particularly novel is that the magnetic watch actually failed to get Bond out of his crocodile conundrum. It was useful later on of course but it was interesting to see his gadget prove ineffective for once.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited May 2017 Posts: 23,883
    A trick they used in LALD that I remember being particularly novel is that the magnetic watch actually failed to get Bond out of his crocodile conundrum. It was useful later on of course but it was interesting to see his gadget prove ineffective for once.
    Yes, I liked that bit too. Then he had to use his smarts. They tried to deliver something similar in SP (Mendes and Craig are fans of the Moore entry) during the car chase with the Sinatra thing, but it didn't quite work for me.

    The difference was the LALD croc sequence was tense, so I was on edge. The car chase wasn't and the Sinatra element was a gag.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    A trick they used in LALD that I remember being particularly novel is that the magnetic watch actually failed to get Bond out of his crocodile conundrum. It was useful later on of course but it was interesting to see his gadget prove ineffective for once.

    There was something similar in GF, when the homer device was crushed along with Solo.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited May 2017 Posts: 8,395
    Yeah, knowing that Bond at times has to rely on some bit of luck or some ingenuity from Q makes him more human. Bond is the best in the business, but he should never feel literally unstoppable.
    A trick they used in LALD that I remember being particularly novel is that the magnetic watch actually failed to get Bond out of his crocodile conundrum. It was useful later on of course but it was interesting to see his gadget prove ineffective for once.

    There was something similar in GF, when the homer device was crushed along with Solo.

    Was it crushed? It's hard to see how something that small could get crushed like that. I always thought the gaint magnet made the homer ineffective.
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