Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • edited June 2017 Posts: 337
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I think Robert Brown is excellent in LTK. It was the film that made me appreciate him.

    Not saying he's bad; I think it's easily his best performance as M, which is saying something considering he did a fine job in TLD. In fact I might go as far as to say that his LTK performance was a match for any of Lee's. It's just strikingly different to his previous portrayals — then again, there seemed to be a difference between his interactions with Moore and Dalton.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Ludovico wrote: »
    MR is borderline pure scifi with some minor spying elements. Even moreso than YOLT or TSWLM. In FYEO we have a plausible Cold War espionage story. It belongs to the right genre.

    The last third, perhaps. But up to and including Venice, I found it suitably spy-like. But I have to concede that it feels more inspired by Star Wars than the Cold War.

    But in my opinion, that's more than made up for by the fact that MR is more tonally consistent than FYEO.

    Yes but the whole plot is centered on a scifi premisse. If Bond was set to find a Horcrux, even if he only showed up in say the Ministry of Magic in the last five minutes of the movie, he'd still be in a fantasy movie, not a spy one. Yes genre movies can have elements of other genres: one can be write a spy thriller with elements of whodunit, of crime fiction, etc. You can have a space spy or a spy in a fantasy setting. But MR is dowmright scifi. FYEO with all its flaws is proper espionage.
  • @Ludovico Fair enough.
  • Posts: 1,162
    Excellent post!

    Thank you, kind sir!

    Forgot another opinion of mine that's bound to be controversial: FYEO is the worst of the Moore films, by a noticeable margin.

    Controversial or not - it's just plain wrong!
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    I don't find Q to be out of character in LTK.
    Q and Dalton Bond seemed to have a much more collegue kind of relationship, they were always very friendly with each other.
    I like that aspect very much.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,120
    I don't find Q to be out of character in LTK.
    Q and Dalton Bond seemed to have a much more collegue kind of relationship, they were always very friendly with each other.
    I like that aspect very much.

    So I, loved his larger role in the film.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 1,162
    @noSolaceleft

    of course the Tosca sequence is fantastic, it's the only thing in the film that really works and Craig is Bond there

    overall I think Craig only felt like Bond (compared to the other five actors) in SPECTRE. There are hints of Bond in CR (Montenegro) and SF (the Macau sequence).

    Let's just hope that Bond Begins nonsense will never again materialise in the series.

    While I sympathize with many of your opinions, your enthusiasm for SP is completely lost on me.
    For me this film is 50% boredom and 50% raping Fleming. Also, I don't feel coming anything from Craig in it. And no, it has got nothing to do with that infamous interview.
    Regarding your last line, I will raise a glass on it at the next opportunity!
  • Posts: 1,162
    Excellent post!

    Thank you, kind sir!

    Forgot another opinion of mine that's bound to be controversial: FYEO is the worst of the Moore films, by a noticeable margin.

    I disagree (TMWTGG and MR are much worse imo) but I'm not a fan at all and I do think it might be the most overrated Bond film.
    .

    Not as long as there are people running around praising SF. Not by a wide margin.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    @noSolaceleft

    I think after QOS and SF, for me the only way was up. I expected another Skyfall disaster.
    But then SPECTRE, for me, felt like another GoldenEye, TSWLM sorts of film.
    It's in my Top 10, No 7 for now.

    SP has saved this era for me. If it had been another SF I may have even lost interest at all in this era.

    So, that was a psychological factor that helped a lot. Having said that, I do feel, that SP is by far the most Bond we got from Craig so far. Even if he is merely copying Brosnan and Moore to some extend it is still way better than the non-Bond we got from him so far.

    I view SF as Mendes trial and error film with a lot of error, while in SP he got a lot right.
    Also story wise SF is the worst of all films by far. SP has a typical Bond story, I liked that.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Craig was 100% Bond for me in CR despite none (or very few) of the tropes.

    Ironically (and perhaps controversially), I find he's regressed somewhat since then and become a bit robotic. He was a richly formed character from the get go in that first film due to the quality of the writing.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 1,162
    RC7 wrote: »
    About QOS:

    While I overall think the 24 films are alright the way they are, QOS is the one I would scrap if such a thing was possible.

    EON failed already in CR to a great extend with the re-boot nonsense.
    Craig was 38 and way too old to be a rookie 00. That's just for starters. And there is so much more really.

    But about QOS. It's like a TV episode has continued the story of a cinematic epic.
    Sure with a high budget and good production value but still.

    Craig is not Bond (hahaha) in QOS at all. Maybe in one or two scenes it feels like he is. (sorry couldn't resist :) )
    The rest is bloody stupid Die Hard vs Jason Bourne vs whatevercommonactionfilm

    Honestly if you change his name in the film nobody would even think of it as a Bond film.

    I enjoy the film nonetheless, it's highly entertaining and even if it's by far the greatest failure in the series (concerning making a proper Bond film) it still is watchable BECAUSE it is the "afterbirth" from Casino Royale and is therefore connected to it, that helps, that saves QOS. Otherwise I may not even watch it ever again.

    You pretty much knocked it out of the park there. Craig's first two Bond films don't receive nearly enough criticism. I think it's because a darker emotional Bond has been tried before twice, and both times failed. So when Craig came along and made a gritty Bond film that was a success, a lot of people became instant disciples. In their minds, Craig is a grand leader who finally ushered in this type of Bond that we have all been yearning for. I have seen people try and downplay any criticisms of Craig as "nitpicking", which is of course done to interpretation. Anything to obscure or distract, or muddy the waters. I've also witnessed some shifting of blame away from the producers and Craig, to unforeseen circumstances like the writers strike. It's all an attempt to maintain a halo above Craig's head as the chosen one. Now, I have no problems with Craig. He is decent, but it's the messiah image that has been built around him, as the second coming of Connery that becomes tiresome. He's just another Bond actor like the other's, with upsides and downsides. But for some, that's insufficient. Like I say, I think Craig holds a special emotional grip on some people because he is the first one to make a realistic Bond work. How can they be critical of someone who has delivered what they have been waiting for for so long? They feel indebted in some way, and I think that's where all this mental gymnastics come from.

    I don't get the QoS revisionism, it's simply not up to scratch in my book. Craig, however, is probably the best thing about it.

    CR on the other hand, is a top three Bond film on every level. Style, panache, energy, excitement, intrigue... it delivers everything you'd expect and more in a completely fresh way. Calling out Craig for being a rookie at 38 - I don't care, it's irrelevant. The film is a blast from start to finish. A jewel in the crown. An exceptional Bond film.

    Yeah I just can't see QoS as anything other than a missed opportunity. It's just a mess imo. I genuinely think that Forster is the worst thing to happen to the franchise. At least Tamahori was coming from a place of love with DAD (watch it with the commentary on, gave me a newfound respect for the man). Forster deliberately tried to shy away from almost anything that makes a Bond film a Bond film (some of that wasn't his fault though, like the melody-less theme song). And to top it all of it wasn't even a good film in its own right. Could have been if he'd developed the million sub plots past a couple of scenes, picked one main plot thread to focus on, given the film time to breath, actually allowed us to see what was going on in the action scenes (maybe he was trying to disguise the fact that there's no variety and that it's just chase scene after chase scene), etc.

    QoS is the only Bond film that makes me legimately angry. I can find something to enjoy in most of them but I really properly despise this one. My least favourite by far.

    I agree wholeheartedly. QOS was only the third Bond film I had ever seen when I first watched it, and it nearly killed my interest in the franchise (I'm so glad I pressed onward into the good Bond films). I just recently re-watched "Everything Wrong With Quantum of Solace" on YouTube (If anyone is unfamiliar with the series I'd highly recommend looking it up) and it really is amazing what a mess the film is. Someone in the comments mentioned that, apparently, each shot averages out to only two seconds. I believe it, considering what a choppy, unpleasant experience it is to watch.

    To me it's just another proof how BB and MGW lack a coherent vision for their product.
    I mean, the least they could have done after Forster had shown them his intended movie, is taking him to the side and say something along the lines of "You know Marc, we have given you $200 million just to travel with your team around the world and make a real Bond movie and we really would like to see an optical equivalent of it on the screen. Go back into the cutting room and insert a few seconds extra per shot. And no, we are not in the mood to discuss it! Go, move and don't look back!"
    Having said all of that, it's still a gorgeous and lush looking movie and to me by far the best of the Craig era!
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    @noSolaceleft

    Absolutely. It is beyond me, how BB + MGW could have been ok with the final version of QOS. I almost walked out of the cinema after the first 20 minutes by the way. I didn't but I had already a soaring headache after the first two acts.

    On the big screen QOS was a disaster and EVERYBODY felt the same, at least where I watched it.

    Switzerland is Bond crazy. Probably the most Bond crazy county in the world. Yes, even more than the UK.
    Marc Forster is Swiss, Elvis (Taubman) is Swiss.
    There was a huge media coverage for QOS. Huge.

    The film made even less ticket sales than Casino Royale that also didn't sell more tickets than DAD or GE did by the way.

    Just shows how wrong QOS was on every level.

    On the small screen on TV QOS works better. It is at least entertaining if completely devoid of anything Bond-like. Except Tosca and some minor small scenes.
  • Controversial or not - it's just plain wrong!

    :(

    I don't find it risible, just not as entertaining as the other Moore flicks because it's not as committed to any one approach. My criteria for Bond films is rather simple and Moore just hit it better with the other movies. It's not that FYEO is especially bad, just that I found the others more enjoyable.
  • Posts: 1,162
    I have to admit that I also only warmed to it when I saw it on my TV set. When I went back out of the cinema a few months before I was taken quite a bit aback. But it has grown to me ever since and, SF or not, I still find it the most beautiful looking of this era. That's why it annoys me that they allowed him to pursue his vision so relentlessly. I have said it before and I stand by it - Broccoli and Wilson actually lack many traits that are need it to be good producers. I guess that's just the advantage when you simply inherited something, you don't have to compete with more able people for the job.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Controversial or not - it's just plain wrong!

    :(

    I don't find it risible, just not as entertaining as the other Moore flicks because it's not as committed to any one approach. My criteria for Bond films is rather simple and Moore just hit it better with the other movies. It's not that FYEO is especially bad, just that I found the others more enjoyable.

    I do have to say another actor for Bond might have made FYEO more consistent in tone and intrinsically better. But I doubt at this point people were ready for a new Bond. Only Moore could have sold this return to form so to speak.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    FYEO is a very Dalton like Bond. He would have been perfect. But I love FYEO like it is.
  • edited June 2017 Posts: 337
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I do have to say another actor for Bond might have made FYEO more consistent in tone and intrinsically better. But I doubt at this point people were ready for a new Bond. Only Moore could have sold this return to form so to speak.

    Moonraker was a huge commercial success (Moore's greatest), and that may well have been because it picked up some Star Wars fans, and retained some fans of TSWLM who were drawn in by the huge production level of the film and larger-than-life take on the franchise. Whatever ranking you have of his movies, it's undeniable that Moore's biggest and most defining impact as Bond came in TSWLM and MR, which is reflected in the fact that they were easily his biggest box office successes.

    FYEO was definitely more grounded, but if it went too far the other way (as it probably would have under a different actor), the franchise might've quickly lost its new followers. So I agree that Roger was essential to returning Bond to earth, so to speak. And perhaps that meant FYEO had to retain some of the more outrageous elements, though I still don't think that necessitated either the Blofeld or Thatcher farces.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    FYEO is a very Dalton like Bond. He would have been perfect. But I love FYEO like it is.
    I agree. FYEO & TLD are very similar tonally for me. They're both quite grounded, but have a little of the old camp humour sprinkled in. I can see Dalton in FYEO, but am also very glad that Moore did it.
  • Posts: 15,117
    Oh I don't do rankings. New controversial opinion: I find them pointless. My Bond movies fit in various "wide" categories: love it, like it, sort of ok, rather bad and don't bother.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    Oh I don't do rankings. New controversial opinion: I find them pointless. My Bond movies fit in various "wide" categories: love it, like it, sort of ok, rather bad and don't bother.

    Well, that's fair enough, but my point was that regardless of your ranking (or even if you had none), there's no denying that Moore's peak pop culture impact was in the late 70's with TSWLM and MR. They were his most over-the-top films, but they also attracted the largest audience.

    Which is why deviating too much from that with FYEO might not have been a good idea. Just a thought.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Oh I don't do rankings. New controversial opinion: I find them pointless. My Bond movies fit in various "wide" categories: love it, like it, sort of ok, rather bad and don't bother.

    I think we're the only two people who don't rank them.
  • BondJasonBond006BondJasonBond006 on fb and ajb
    Posts: 9,020
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Oh I don't do rankings. New controversial opinion: I find them pointless. My Bond movies fit in various "wide" categories: love it, like it, sort of ok, rather bad and don't bother.

    I rank them. Obsessively.
    But to use your method:

    Love It: DN to TND, DAD, CR, SP
    Like it: QOS
    Sort of ok: TWINE, SF

    SF though may soon be demoted to Don't bother status.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited June 2017 Posts: 7,120
    That would be too easy for me:

    Favourites: FRWL, OHMSS, LTK, GE

    Love it: DN, GF, TB, TMWTGG, TSWLM, OP, TLD, DAD, CR, SP

    Like it: YOLT, DAF, LALD, MR, FYEO, AVTAK, TND, TWINE, QOS, SF
  • Posts: 15,117
    @stun_harvesting I do think Moore was pass his prime by the time of FYEO and stretching credibility as a field operative. But I think the movie was absolutely necessary after the excesses of the 70s and a much welcome return to form that only Moore could sell, the way only Connery could sell DAF and the new approach.
  • RC7RC7
    edited June 2017 Posts: 10,512
    The more I consider it, the low point of the series (in a wider context) is Connery in DAF. The original, The King, delivering a half-hearted walk through of a pretty turgid script. This was the guy that less than 10 years earlier was in DN. Only 7 years prior -the coolest man on the planet in GF. They've all been put in some pretty invidious positions - not of their own making - but I don't believe any Bond has delivered a performance so visibly and purposefully 'meh'.

    Don't get me wrong, there are some zingers in there and his ambivalence does translate into some genuine laughs, but no actor has ended their tenure so far and so poorly from where they started.
  • LeonardPineLeonardPine The Bar on the Beach
    Posts: 3,996
    I'd actually say that Connery makes DAF a much better film than it should be.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    I'd actually say that Connery makes DAF a much better film than it should be.

    You may be right, Brosnan did the same with DAD, but his performances were relatively consistent and considered. When you consider what Connery was, to what he became, it's a momentous slide. I'm not saying he's worse than other actors in specific films, but when you look at the trajectory it's grim.
  • Posts: 11,189
    Connery doesn't cut it for me in DAF. Yes he gets some good lines but he looks like an over-the-hill waiter in a gentlemans club. Not the cool bastard he was in the earlier films. He also seems to be on autopilot more.
  • RC7RC7
    Posts: 10,512
    BAIN123 wrote: »
    Connery doesn't cut it for me in DAF. Yes he gets some good lines but he looks like an over-the-hill waiter in a gentlemans club. Not the cool bastard he was in the earlier films. He also seems to be on autopilot more.

    This is what I'm getting at. Rog gets stick for his later performances, but he's always 'there', he's always giving and he's, pretty much, always Rog. The leap from DN to DAF shows what tailspin Connery suffered.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    RC7 wrote: »
    The more I consider it, the low point of the series (in a wider context) is Connery in DAF. The original, The King, delivering a half-hearted walk through of a pretty turgid script. This was the guy that less than 10 years earlier was in DN. Only 7 years prior -the coolest man on the planet in GF. They've all been put in some pretty invidious positions - not of their own making - but I don't believe any Bond has delivered a performance so visibly and purposefully 'meh'.

    Don't get me wrong, there are some zingers in there and his ambivalence does translate into some genuine laughs, but no actor has ended their tenure so far and so poorly from where they started.

    This is fair comment.
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