Controversial opinions about Bond films

1367368370372373707

Comments

  • Posts: 16,169
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I didn't like the Nolan inspired Bond Begins in CR.

    One of the things that I like about the original novel and the film version of DN is the fact that we just step into Bond's world without the 21st century need to have an origin story.

    The film is at its best from the train ride onwards in my opinion.

    I couldn't agree more. Honestly, I feel it was one of the worst decisions in the franchise. Although it seemed to open new doors at the time, I think it has limited the series. Hence, writing the films into a story arc like every other franchise out there.

    The Bond origin was following a 21st century trend, which I can imagine will seem astonishingly dated down the line. I actually would have far preferred CR to have played out as a regular Bond assignment. Of course, in a sense it was a solid publicity gimmick which drove audiences to theaters. Now the origin re-boot shtick has been so played I can't bear to look at another.
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 12,837
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    I didn't like the Nolan inspired Bond Begins in CR.

    One of the things that I like about the original novel and the film version of DN is the fact that we just step into Bond's world without the 21st century need to have an origin story.

    The film is at its best from the train ride onwards in my opinion.

    I enjoy the first half because of the action but I completely agree. It feels really pointless and it's one of the reasons I've never loved CR. You can tell how tacked on it is once the film gets to the train journey because that's when the film gets to the novel, and because of that the brash reckless rookie is gone and we just get normal Bond. Nothing in the film from that point on screams origin story. People say it was necessary but I don't think it was. He could still fall for Vesper as an experienced agent, letting his guard down because after all the killing he's done he sees a chance at happiness. And the Goldfinger esque contemplating killing scenes (cleaning himself up and staring into the mirror, comforting Vesper in the shower) would imo be even more profound if this was the same guy from 1962-2002 (I know it makes no sense, the point is though that the audience would know Bond is experienced not that they know all those other films happened), with all he's done finally starting to get to him. Make the parkour the PTS, remove any reference to Bond being a rookie or a new agent and you instantly have a better film imo. They could have easily got rid of the gadgets and excess without doing an origin story. Q's had films off before and could have easily filled the role of the guy in the defib scene, and did removing Moneypenny really accomplish anything since she barely ever has any screen time anyway? She could have easily filled Villier's role. But again, even if they were determined not to include those characters it didn't have to mean origin story.

    My other problem with CR is how bloated it is so I'd cut down on the Miami scenes and get rid of the sinking house finale altogether. The film feels like it ends when Le Chiffre dies imo. What happens afterwards should be more of a quiet epilogue, as it is in the book, but instead they tried to turn it into a big finale and whenever it gets to that point I just feel really bored. The film is what, two and a half hours long? They could have easily cut it down to two hours imo.

    CR is a film I've always admired but never really loved. It's really well made, written, acted, etc, but I just don't enjoy it that much for all those reasons. Middle of the pack for me. One of those films that has a lot going for it and is on the verge of being a classic but doesn't quite get there.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2017 Posts: 23,883
    I quite agree re: the origin story aspect. It was unnecessary to me as well, and it definitely seems out of place now in retrospect. CR could have functioned far better without it and with a bit of trimming of some of the action. I always look forward to the casino sequences, because that is really where the film comes alive. The film peaks there for me.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    I agree @thelivingroyale , if Bond had been the same experienced agent from the previous films, the whole Vesper story arc would have been even more touching than what we eventually got. Also, SF's worn out agent gimmick would have worked better too.

    This is the reason why I don't really get why CR is still hailed as the best Bond film ever. It is an excellent film, but it definitely jumped the shark with the origin story. At least in my opinion.
  • Posts: 16,169
    The first half, save for a few Bondian moments, feels like padding to me. I agree with Cubby's initial judgment to pass on having a rookie Bond. Bond as a novice was the last thing I wanted to see in the franchise and the least interesting idea IMO.
    I can remember some of my friends at the time thinking it was excellent as a thriller, and Craig was solid, but complained that the film felt nothing like a James Bond movie. By QoS, there was a genuine regret that the series had moved away too much from the formula. With the departure of formula and spaces between films there is now an entire generation that doesn't know the excitement of seeing a new "Bond" film in the cinemas- in the classic sense. Sad.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    The first half, save for a few Bondian moments, feels like padding to me. I agree with Cubby's initial judgment to pass on having a rookie Bond. Bond as a novice was the last thing I wanted to see in the franchise and the least interesting idea IMO.
    I can remember some of my friends at the time thinking it was excellent as a thriller, and Craig was solid, but complained that the film felt nothing like a James Bond movie. By QoS, there was a genuine regret that the series had moved away too much from the formula. With the departure of formula and spaces between films there is now an entire generation that doesn't know the excitement of seeing a new "Bond" film in the cinemas- in the classic sense. Sad.

    You've hit the nail on the head @ToTheRight
  • Posts: 16,169
    Thanks, @BMW_with_missiles .
    Although quality varied in the pre-Craig films, there was still that warmth of seeing a new Bond movie in the cinema. You knew what you were going to get.
    Roger's analogy that the Bonds should have a sameness of a comforting bedtime story fits that sentiment. Yet each film feels vastly different. TB, LALD and GE all adhere to the formula but have their individuality. They're all pure Bond, though.
    SF seemed to be an attempt to balance elements of the formula with the approach the Craig films had been taking. SP went even further towards classic Bond, yet the the personal Craig era elements seem really forced.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,812
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I agree with Cubby's initial judgment to pass on having a rookie Bond.
    Mr. Broccoli didn't have the rights to film CASINO ROYALE at the time.
    Showing the first two kills and OO7's first mission is a great way to finally present Fleming's first Bond novel that establishes the character. Glad it worked out the way if did, but with Dalton that would have been stellar.
  • Posts: 15,125
    Don't know if it is controversial, it's not even directly related to Bond, but my mother-in-law said this recently: "Sean Bean can do no wrong."
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,304
    GetCarter wrote: »
    Brosnan's Bond had by far the best interactions with M.

    I don't know if it's equally controversial, but I think George probably had the best M scene, and the best Moneypenny scenes.

    With M, I love first of all how many scenes they have together, and how the first is very tense (with some of George's better acting), the second is cordial, but a bit cool, with M wishing to carry on with his leisure time while his agent is bothering him rather than taking his leave, and then the scene with M thinking the case is finished, but Bond once again pushes it forward. A nice mix of tones in that one.

    And George and Lois just looked fantastic together. I don't know if Lois was told to turn it up a notch to make it work with the new guy, but the relationship in OHMSS just worked brilliantly as far as I'm concerned.

    GetCarter wrote: »
    Brosnan's Bond had by far the best interactions with M.

    I don't know if it's equally controversial, but I think George probably had the best M scene, and the best Moneypenny scenes.

    With M, I love first of all how many scenes they have together, and how the first is very tense (with some of George's better acting), the second is cordial, but a bit cool, with M wishing to carry on with his leisure time while his agent is bothering him rather than taking his leave, and then the scene with M thinking the case is finished, but Bond once again pushes it forward. A nice mix of tones in that one.

    And George and Lois just looked fantastic together. I don't know if Lois was told to turn it up a notch to make it work with the new guy, but the relationship in OHMSS just worked brilliantly as far as I'm concerned.

    GetCarter wrote: »
    Brosnan's Bond had by far the best interactions with M.

    I don't know if it's equally controversial, but I think George probably had the best M scene, and the best Moneypenny scenes.

    With M, I love first of all how many scenes they have together, and how the first is very tense (with some of George's better acting), the second is cordial, but a bit cool, with M wishing to carry on with his leisure time while his agent is bothering him rather than taking his leave, and then the scene with M thinking the case is finished, but Bond once again pushes it forward. A nice mix of tones in that one.

    And George and Lois just looked fantastic together. I don't know if Lois was told to turn it up a notch to make it work with the new guy, but the relationship in OHMSS just worked brilliantly as far as I'm concerned.

    GetCarter wrote: »
    Brosnan's Bond had by far the best interactions with M.

    I don't know if it's equally controversial, but I think George probably had the best M scene, and the best Moneypenny scenes.

    With M, I love first of all how many scenes they have together, and how the first is very tense (with some of George's better acting), the second is cordial, but a bit cool, with M wishing to carry on with his leisure time while his agent is bothering him rather than taking his leave, and then the scene with M thinking the case is finished, but Bond once again pushes it forward. A nice mix of tones in that one.

    And George and Lois just looked fantastic together. I don't know if Lois was told to turn it up a notch to make it work with the new guy, but the relationship in OHMSS just worked brilliantly as far as I'm concerned.

    ToTheRight wrote: »
    I agree with Cubby's initial judgment to pass on having a rookie Bond.
    Mr. Broccoli didn't have the rights to film CASINO ROYALE at the time.
    Showing the first two kills and OO7's first mission is a great way to finally present Fleming's first Bond novel that establishes the character. Glad it worked out the way if did, but with Dalton that would have been stellar.

    I'm with you. There are certain Bond novels--CR is one, MR another--where, if you want to be faithful to them, you need to have a younger, less worldly Bond. In both, Bond makes assumptions that aren't correct about the women around him.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Don't know if it is controversial, it's not even directly related to Bond, but my mother-in-law said this recently: "Sean Bean can do no wrong."
    He came close to getting the title role. Babs allegedly preferred him to Brozza for GE, so much so that he was given the villain role as a consolation.
  • edited September 2017 Posts: 12,837
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Don't know if it is controversial, it's not even directly related to Bond, but my mother-in-law said this recently: "Sean Bean can do no wrong."
    He came close to getting the title role. Babs allegedly preferred him to Brozza for GE, so much so that he was given the villain role as a consolation.

    I always got the sense that Brosnan was more Cubby's choice than Barbara's, but I didn't realise Bean was so close to getting the role. I'd read that Paul Mcgann was their second choice. Not sure if I'd want to sacrifice Brosnan but Bean would have been a great Bond. Very similar actor to Craig in a lot of ways imo, so you can see that BB had a certain type in mind from day one if that's true.

    And I agree with your mother in law @Ludovico. He's brilliant in everything he's in. I also love how he seems to have cherished being in a Bond film. Read an interview not that long ago where he was asked about it and he was full of praise and apparently still has the Omega they gave him for the film.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Don't know if it is controversial, it's not even directly related to Bond, but my mother-in-law said this recently: "Sean Bean can do no wrong."
    He came close to getting the title role. Babs allegedly preferred him to Brozza for GE, so much so that he was given the villain role as a consolation.

    I always got the sense that Brosnan was more Cubby's choice than Barbara's, but I didn't realise Bean was so close to getting the role. I'd read that Paul Mcgann was their second choice. Not sure if I'd want to sacrifice Brosnan but Bean would have been a great Bond. Very similar actor to Craig in a lot of ways imo, so you can see that BB had a certain type in mind from day one if that's true.
    Yes, I noticed that too. Quite similar, and both quite different to the traditional Bond screen type. I agree that Bean could have been quite a good Bond had he been given the chance. He's a compelling screen presence.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    SF seemed to be an attempt to balance elements of the formula with the approach the Craig films had been taking. SP went even further towards classic Bond, yet the the personal Craig era elements seem really forced.

    @ToTheRight Exactly. That's because those personal elements stand in stark contrast to what classic screen Bond historically was; escapist fantasy starring an untouchable hero with relatively flat character-a bit of jovial fun. Save for a few deviations like OHMSS, which were special because they were brief, momentary deviations, we didn't know or give a toss about Bond's personal issues. The two styles don't mix, and the current emotional style is not Bondian IMO.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Don't know if it is controversial, it's not even directly related to Bond, but my mother-in-law said this recently: "Sean Bean can do no wrong."


    Honestly I think he did much wrong as Trevelyan. He never really felt natural and genuin in the part for me.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,136
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    SF seemed to be an attempt to balance elements of the formula with the approach the Craig films had been taking. SP went even further towards classic Bond, yet the the personal Craig era elements seem really forced.

    @ToTheRight Exactly. That's because those personal elements stand in stark contrast to what classic screen Bond historically was; escapist fantasy starring an untouchable hero with relatively flat character-a bit of jovial fun. Save for a few deviations like OHMSS, which were special because they were brief, momentary deviations, we didn't know or give a toss about Bond's personal issues. The two styles don't mix, and the current emotional style is not Bondian IMO.

    If you give the Bond character some depth once in a while that's fine but just don't overdo it.

    It worked in OHMSS and LTK because it came unexpectedly. There is a 20 year gap between these films as well which makes a more emotional Bond feel fresh.

    Do it four films in a row and it becomes tiresome to the point that the film loses its energy.
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    SF seemed to be an attempt to balance elements of the formula with the approach the Craig films had been taking. SP went even further towards classic Bond, yet the the personal Craig era elements seem really forced.

    @ToTheRight Exactly. That's because those personal elements stand in stark contrast to what classic screen Bond historically was; escapist fantasy starring an untouchable hero with relatively flat character-a bit of jovial fun. Save for a few deviations like OHMSS, which were special because they were brief, momentary deviations, we didn't know or give a toss about Bond's personal issues. The two styles don't mix, and the current emotional style is not Bondian IMO.

    If you give the Bond character some depth once in a while that's fine but just don't overdo it.

    It worked in OHMSS and LTK because it came unexpectedly. There is a 20 year gap between these films as well which makes a more emotional Bond feel fresh.

    Do it four films in a row and it becomes tiresome to the point that the film loses its energy.

    Precisely.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Indeed.

    I think maybe we can all put a bow on the myth of Sam Mendes being one if the best directors around now too.

    He doesnt seem to be able to direct action particularly well, and by the way Spectre turned out, plus some of Waltz's allusions, he doesn't seem to be able to coax performances from actors either.

  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    I do have one controversial opinion. Lewis Gilbert and his second unit had, at least visually, the strongest direction of any in the series.

    The vehicular action scenes in his movies particularly, where wonderfully shot.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Of course he did have Renoir's grandson as his DOP which helped, im sure.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited September 2017 Posts: 7,136
    Roadphill wrote: »
    Of course he did have Renoir's grandson as his DOP which helped, im sure.

    Exactly, Gilbert gave his films some epic scope but he did have three excellent DOP's to work with as well.

    Freddie Young, Lawrence of Arabia and Doctor Zhivago.
    Claude Renoir, La grande vadrouille and grandson of the famous Jean Renoir.
    Jean Tournier, The Day of the Jackal.

    Storywise however, all three films recycle the same preposterous premise.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Yes, but I meant purely as a visual director.
  • ForYourEyesOnlyForYourEyesOnly In the untained cradle of the heavens
    edited September 2017 Posts: 1,984
    Gilbert handled Bond better than Hamilton did in the 70's, in my opinion. TSWLM hinted at the absurdity to come and MR embodied it, but in all their outrageousness they captured the flavour of Bond far better than the early 70's flicks directed by Hamilton, IMHO.

    DAF and TMWTGG were steaming hot messes that felt like they didn't know what they were doing, plus they just seemed more low-budget. LALD had a seedier setting and stronger elements so it's a bit more excusable but all three movies just felt lesser to the preceding ones in my opinion. With TSWLM they captured the Bond magic again, if only briefly.
  • Posts: 7,507
    In my humble opinion I would prefer if we could stop ending every opinion stated with pointing out it is a personal humble opinion. In my humble opinion every opinion regarding Bond, and in my humble opinion, infact any film in general, will be subjective anyway. So in my humble opinion there is really no need to state what is in my humble opinion pretty obvious, namely that all the opinions I share here are indeed my own. In my humble opinion it is both redundant and tiresome having to see 'my humble opinion' being reiterated again and again.
  • Posts: 19,339
    jobo wrote: »
    In my humble opinion I would prefer if we could stop ending every opinion stated with pointing out it is a personal humble opinion. In my humble opinion every opinion regarding Bond, and in my humble opinion, infact any film in general, will be subjective anyway. So in my humble opinion there is really no need to state what is in my humble opinion pretty obvious, namely that all the opinions I share here are indeed my own. In my humble opinion it is both redundant and tiresome having to see 'my humble opinion' being reiterated again and again.

    In your opinion,of course. ;)
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited September 2017 Posts: 7,136
    Gilbert handled Bond better than Hamilton did in the 70's, in my opinion. TSWLM hinted at the absurdity to come and MR embodied it, but in all their outrageousness they captured the flavour of Bond far better than the early 70's flicks directed by Hamilton, IMHO.

    DAF and TMWTGG were steaming hot messes that felt like they didn't know what they were doing, plus they just seemed more low-budget. LALD had a seedier setting and stronger elements so it's a bit more excusable but all three movies just felt lesser to the preceding ones in my opinion. With TSWLM they captured the Bond magic again, if only briefly.

    I think people give TMWTGG not enough credit. The film looks a lot better than the previous two. Maybe Ted Moore was getting a bit long in the teeth and was the inclusion of Oswald Morris TMWTGG's blessing. It had a lot more colour and a more exotic feel.

    Also, the excellent production design by Peter Murton is regretfully forgotten by many. The MI6 offices in the stranded ship is the forerunner of Adam's improvised MI6 HQ's abroad in the following episodes.

    Furthermore, I absolutely love Scaramanga's funhouse. It's one-third German Expressionism, one third Italian giallo and one third House of Wax. As a horror fan, it is obviously one of my favourite villain lairs.

  • Posts: 7,507
    barryt007 wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    In my humble opinion I would prefer if we could stop ending every opinion stated with pointing out it is a personal humble opinion. In my humble opinion every opinion regarding Bond, and in my humble opinion, infact any film in general, will be subjective anyway. So in my humble opinion there is really no need to state what is in my humble opinion pretty obvious, namely that all the opinions I share here are indeed my own. In my humble opinion it is both redundant and tiresome having to see 'my humble opinion' being reiterated again and again.

    In your opinion,of course. ;)


    *humble opinion in fact ;)
  • Posts: 19,339
    jobo wrote: »
    barryt007 wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    In my humble opinion I would prefer if we could stop ending every opinion stated with pointing out it is a personal humble opinion. In my humble opinion every opinion regarding Bond, and in my humble opinion, infact any film in general, will be subjective anyway. So in my humble opinion there is really no need to state what is in my humble opinion pretty obvious, namely that all the opinions I share here are indeed my own. In my humble opinion it is both redundant and tiresome having to see 'my humble opinion' being reiterated again and again.

    In your opinion,of course. ;)


    *humble opinion in fact ;)

    Of course !
    I forgot the 'humble' part.

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited September 2017 Posts: 23,883
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Gilbert handled Bond better than Hamilton did in the 70's, in my opinion. TSWLM hinted at the absurdity to come and MR embodied it, but in all their outrageousness they captured the flavour of Bond far better than the early 70's flicks directed by Hamilton, IMHO.

    DAF and TMWTGG were steaming hot messes that felt like they didn't know what they were doing, plus they just seemed more low-budget. LALD had a seedier setting and stronger elements so it's a bit more excusable but all three movies just felt lesser to the preceding ones in my opinion. With TSWLM they captured the Bond magic again, if only briefly.

    I think people give TMWTGG not enough credit. The film looks a lot better than the previous two. Maybe Ted Moore was getting a bit long in the teeth and was the inclusion of Oswald Morris TMWTGG's blessing. It had a lot more colour and a more exotic feel.

    Also, the excellent production design by Peter Murton is regretfully forgotten by many. The MI6 offices in the stranded ship is the forerunner of Adam's improvised MI6 HQ's abroad in the following episodes.

    Furthermore, I absolutely love Scaramanga's funhouse. It's one-third German Expressionism, one third Italian giallo and one third House of Wax. As a horror fan, it is obviously one of my favourite villain lairs.
    I'm a huge fan of all the 70's Bond films (including DAF). I think they all retain that special Bondian attribute. It's difficult to put a finger on it but it's a slight eccentricity (in the characters and the premise) combined with a larger than life quality. While the budgets were certainly cut in the early 70s (particularly in comparison to the much lauded OHMSS), Hamilton was able to capture that special Bond feeling better than Glen under similar circumstances in the 80's imho.

    Gilbert had the budgets in contrast and I agree was a spectacular visual director. His three have some of the most iconic imagery from the series.
  • Posts: 15,125
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Don't know if it is controversial, it's not even directly related to Bond, but my mother-in-law said this recently: "Sean Bean can do no wrong."


    Honestly I think he did much wrong as Trevelyan. He never really felt natural and genuin in the part for me.

    I thought he was great in it, although too young for the role. The character had some flaws but this was no fault of Bean. And of all the villains of the Brosnan era he is by far the most menacing and it's mainly due to Bean's presence.
Sign In or Register to comment.