Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Wasn't Miami Vice very overtly stylized though? With a lot of contemporary songs and bright colours etc? Sort of Danny Boyle'ish.

    LTK wasn't really like that imho, although it was filmed partially in Florida.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I admit I’ve not really seen much of MV. But I do think there’s something of a tv vibe about LTK.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    bondjames wrote: »
    Wasn't Miami Vice very overtly stylized though? With a lot of contemporary songs and bright colours etc? Sort of Danny Boyle'ish.

    LTK wasn't really like that imho, although it was filmed partially in Florida.

    At least for the first few seasons. Afterwards, it was kind of drab due to budget cuts. Not unlike LTK.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    Remington wrote: »
    The fact that the first half of LTK resembles an 80s TV show is one of the reasons I love it because I'm a Miami Vice fanboy.

    MV was a great show.

    Probably my favorite along with The Sopranos and Sons of Anarchy.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    edited May 2018 Posts: 8,400
    LTK is overrated IMO. The basic premise is very contrived in its execution. The only reason it was Lieters wedding was to give Bond the literal lighter, for a poetic death later. Once you realise that, the open twenty minutes is completely redundant. Just have Lieters wife taken by the baddies, and Bond follows the trail like a mystery. That's how most Bond films go anyway, don't know why it isn't the case here. I guess just trying to be edgy and "different". If anything LTK to makes me appreciate more the ways OHMSS is truly distinct from the rest. For me CR and LTK are both failed attempts at another OHMSS type story where the personal stakes are raised. Bond should stay away from that. Bond only personal stakes should be to protect his own ego in the battle of wits with the Villainous character.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    LTK is overrated IMO. The basic premise is very contrived in its execution. The only reason it was Lieters wedding was to give Bond the literal lighter, for a poetic death later. Once you realise that, the open twenty minutes is completely redundant. Just have Lieters wife taken by the baddies, and Bond follows the trail like a mystery. That's how most Bond films go anyway, don't know why it isn't the case here. I guess just trying to be edgy and "different". If anything LTK to makes me appreciate more the ways OHMSS is truly distinct from the rest. For me CR and LTK are both failed attempts at another OHMSS type story where the personal stakes are raised. Bond should stay away from that. Bond only personal stakes should be to protect his own ego in the battle of wits with the Villainous character.

    I'm willing to bet an awful lot of money that if we could go back in time and watch the writing of LTK, the literal lighter was not the basis for the plot. The idea that they came up with that, and then noticed how well they were able to incorporate unused Fleming material and a visceral callback to OHMSS just by chance--that seems really, really unlikely.

    It was Leiter because Leiter is the only character that can be plausibly called a friend of Bond, and it was a wedding so they could play on Bond's unavenged loss. I find it quite effective.

  • Posts: 7,653
    bondjames wrote: »
    Wasn't Miami Vice very overtly stylized though? With a lot of contemporary songs and bright colours etc? Sort of Danny Boyle'ish.

    LTK wasn't really like that imho, although it was filmed partially in Florida.

    It was in my memory very stylized but upon getting them on DVD I found that they care a far more dark undercurrent that makes these colours and songs very dark indeed. The MV vibe from LTK is mostly because they chose to do this movie in an era where Miami Vice did the drugs trafficking in their series so much better and cooler with their cigar boats and lovely ladies.

    I rate the Tv series very much higher than LTK, which was originally supposed to take place in Asia and China, even the Chinese wall was looked into as a set. Sadly they failed to go there.
  • Posts: 15,125
    @Mendes4Lyfe I agree that LTK is overrated. On this forum at least. But the issue is not the personal angle. It is the way it's brought up: like a common vengeance story against a drug lord. The premise of 1,000 80s action movies. I always felt like it was a movie with a long, long Bond cameo, but that he didn't belong to this universe.
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 684
    It was Leiter because Leiter is the only character that can be plausibly called a friend of Bond, and it was a wedding so they could play on Bond's unavenged loss. I find it quite effective.
    I agree that the film presented a real chance to explore what happened to Bond and Tracy through this tragedy of Felix and Della. But for me it never pays off. Della is forgotten about, to the point where by the end Felix can hardly contain his grin as he eyes up the nurse fluffing his pillow and plans his and Bond's fishing trip.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Strog wrote: »
    I agree that the film presented a real chance to explore what happened to Bond and Tracy through this tragedy of Felix and Della. But for me it never pays off. Della is forgotten about, to the point where by the end Felix can hardly contain his grin as he eyes up the nurse fluffing his pillow and plans his and Bond's fishing trip.

    I wouldn't say she's forgotten...she's mentioned again in the scene with M, alluded to when Bond confronts Lupe on the Wavecrest, and referred to at Sanchez's death. But yeah, that phone call from Felix at the end...yeesh.

    I read somewhere that the ending had originally been a bit more somber, but it didn't play well. I rather like the ending as is (there's a controversial opinion!) but would probably prefer a reference to Felix rather than a chipper phone call. Also, they should have kept in the cut scene where he uses the lighter again in the hotel room.

    All in all though, I'd say OHMSS doesn't have very much emotional weight until around minute 135 or so. It's a conventional, albeit very, very good, Bond film. And the weight of the ending was never really cashed in for anything, and I think on the whole LTK makes good use of that capital. I mean, whether they constantly refer to Della (or Felix) or not, Bond's reasons for doing what he's doing always feel crystal clear to me.

  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    edited May 2018 Posts: 1,711
    I guess I'll enter another controversial opinion while I'm defending Dalton films : ) ...

    I think Koskov and Whitaker are great villains. Not the best, but much better than "not bad".

    They're a couple of buffoons just trying to make money for themselves, but the consequences of their actions are deadly serious all the same. Without delving too much into partisan politics, it's a bit of why Donald Trump is mildly scary. He's a buffoon and an idiot who's rather hare-brained in his self-serving schemes, but the consequences are just as dangerous as if he were a more capable villain.

    I think the chaos they bring to the plot is well in keeping with the rather confusing narrative of the film, a nice change of pace for Bond villains, and also something of a callback to From Russia with Love, where we had no clear villain, but three characters (Kronsteen, Klebb, Grant, compare to Koskov, Whitaker, Necros) who are all sharing the villain load rather capably.

    I'm sure I'm not convincing anyone! But they somehow work for me....
  • edited May 2018 Posts: 684
    I wouldn't say she's forgotten...she's mentioned again in the scene with M, alluded to when Bond confronts Lupe on the Wavecrest, and referred to at Sanchez's death.
    I did forgot the mention in the M scene, you're right. Still it was just "his wife." The rest of it was, "I owe it to Leiter" or, "This Leiter business..." The final time her name is said explicitly is when Tim cries it on seeing her dead. I'll concede the engraving mention at the end as well. I'm afraid I can't think of how she was alluded to when Bond and Lupe are on the Wavecrest.
    I read somewhere that the ending had originally been a bit more somber, but it didn't play well.
    Interesting. I'll have to look into that. Somber would definitely have been the right note, I think.
    All in all though, I'd say OHMSS doesn't have very much emotional weight until around minute 135 or so. It's a conventional, albeit very, very good, Bond film. And the weight of the ending was never really cashed in for anything, and I think on the whole LTK makes good use of that capital. I mean, whether they constantly refer to Della (or Felix) or not, Bond's reasons for doing what he's doing always feel crystal clear to me.
    I don't necessarily think a lack of emotional weight throughout is the problem with LTK. There are other reasons why I have LTK lower on my list. In fact there is definitely emotional weight throughout, but it's always aimed towards Felix. I just think Della and the parallels with Tracy make for something of a missed opportunity.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    Strog wrote: »
    I don't necessarily think a lack of emotional weight throughout is the problem with LTK. There are other reasons why I have LTK lower on my list. In fact there is definitely emotional weight throughout, but it's always aimed towards Felix. I just think Della and the parallels with Tracy make for something of a missed opportunity.

    Just so I don't sound too argumentative defending my favorite Bond film : ) , I have to acknowledge that I can definitely imagine the reasons LTK is lower on your list. I realize they didn't hit everything out of the park. : D

    But in QOS, it was really enough to refer to Vesper once or twice at the beginning and then never again, really. It's just on the audience to get why Bond is doing what he's doing.

    Also, for Bond, I think it is just more about Leiter. He's giving his friend what he never got (bar the goofy FYEO PTS), and also, on some level, avenging Tracy. I think the movie is really more about Bond and Felix in that sense. Della is called "his wife", because that's her role here, and where Bond relates (and M probably doesn't know Della by name). I think regular references to her would actually be kind of weird. The relationship between Bond and Della in the early parts of the film are already weird enough...not sure what they were thinking there!

  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Remington wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Wasn't Miami Vice very overtly stylized though? With a lot of contemporary songs and bright colours etc? Sort of Danny Boyle'ish.

    LTK wasn't really like that imho, although it was filmed partially in Florida.

    At least for the first few seasons. Afterwards, it was kind of drab due to budget cuts. Not unlike LTK.
    Oh, I see. I've seen a few episodes (can't remember which season) and found it hyper stylish and quite expensive looking for an 80 tv series, so it must be from an earlier batch.
    SaintMark wrote: »
    It was in my memory very stylized but upon getting them on DVD I found that they care a far more dark undercurrent that makes these colours and songs very dark indeed. The MV vibe from LTK is mostly because they chose to do this movie in an era where Miami Vice did the drugs trafficking in their series so much better and cooler with their cigar boats and lovely ladies.

    I rate the Tv series very much higher than LTK, which was originally supposed to take place in Asia and China, even the Chinese wall was looked into as a set. Sadly they failed to go there.
    Yes, even Lethal Weapon did the drug thing. It seems to have been all the rage in the mid to late 80's.

    I wasn't aware Asia/China was contemplated for LTK. Shame they never went there. LTK lacks glamour and exotic style and perhaps this could have helped the film's box office.
  • Posts: 15,125
    I also don't think featuring the US fairly heavily helps to sell a Bond movie... to US audiences.
  • Posts: 7,434
    I guess I'll enter another controversial opinion while I'm defending Dalton films : ) ...

    I think Koskov and Whitaker are great villains. Not the best, but much better than "not bad".

    They're a couple of buffoons just trying to make money for themselves, but the consequences of their actions are deadly serious all the same. Without delving too much into partisan politics, it's a bit of why Donald Trump is mildly scary. He's a buffoon and an idiot who's rather hare-brained in his self-serving schemes, but the consequences are just as dangerous as if he were a more capable villain.

    I think the chaos they bring to the plot is well in keeping with the rather confusing narrative of the film, a nice change of pace for Bond villains, and also something of a callback to From Russia with Love, where we had no clear villain, but three characters (Kronsteen, Klebb, Grant, compare to Koskov, Whitaker, Necros) who are all sharing the villain load rather capably.

    I'm sure I'm not convincing anyone! But they somehow work for me....

    You don't need to convince me. I think Dalton 2 movies had some of the best villains. Sanchez being one of THE best, but Koskov and Whitaker and Necros were a great trip.
  • Posts: 787
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I also don't think featuring the US fairly heavily helps to sell a Bond movie... to US audiences.

    Agreed. It doesn't help that they've made the USA look shabby and dull every time they've filmed there.
  • BondAficionadoBondAficionado Former IMDBer
    Posts: 1,890
    octofinger wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I also don't think featuring the US fairly heavily helps to sell a Bond movie... to US audiences.

    Agreed. It doesn't help that they've made the USA look shabby and dull every time they've filmed there.

    I personally find the scenes in San Francisco to be relatively flattering. The way they frame the City Hall and the Golden Gate Bridge doesn't look dull or uninspired. It almost seems like they were so proud to be given permission to shoot there, that they actually bothered to put it in a good light and I think they pulled it off rather well. Maybe it's just me.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I wouldn t mind a Bond film that lasts an hour or so.
  • Mendes4LyfeMendes4Lyfe The long road ahead
    Posts: 8,400
    I wouldn t mind a Bond film that lasts an hour or so.

    I agree, but not if it takes 4 years to make!
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    I wouldn t mind a Bond film that lasts an hour or so.

    I agree, but not if it takes 4 years to make!

    It should take a year at most.
  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    Is this controversial? I love all the Blofelds.
    .Dawson/Pohlman (I can't remember if that's spelled right) was the best. Unseen and mysterious.
    .Pleasence is the most iconic. He doesn't get much to do but he leaves his mark.
    .Savalas is pretty much the perfect Blofeld in my eyes.
    .Gray was kind of charming and hilarious. The gentleman Blofeld. Still somewhat menacing though.
    .Waltz was very good but had some terrible dialogue and the less said about his back story the better.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    edited May 2018 Posts: 9,041
    I'm with Birdleson on that...too bad that most fans refuse to see the assets of NSNA.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    As much as I love the FYEO pts, the worst Blofeld is still John Hollis/Robert Rietty.
  • j_w_pepperj_w_pepper Born on the bayou, but I now hear a new dog barkin'
    Posts: 9,041
    Birdleson wrote: »
    As much as I love the FYEO pts, the worst Blofeld is still John Hollis/Robert Rietty.

    That one is weak, I would still put him above Von Sydow.
    I just realized I misunderstood Birdleson totally: I think that Von Sydow has a clear claim to being the best Blofeld of them all. At least as I interpret Blofeld. Savalas is great, perhaps the best of the Bond villains, but he is not as I would imagine Blofeld to be. Von Sydow, in turn, IMO lends his face to the "unseen" Blofeld of the early movies, no matter if voiced by Anthony Dawson or Eric Pohlmann. And give me any of those over Christoph Waltz any time, however much I admire Waltz as an actor.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    Posts: 13,812
    I wouldn t mind a Bond film that lasts an hour or so.
    An Imax short feature. What they should do in the 'tween years.

  • RemingtonRemington I'll do anything for a woman with a knife.
    Posts: 1,534
    Birdleson wrote: »
    I see you skipped the best actor/worst Blofeld: Max Von Sydow.

    He's good but I mainly meant the "official" Blofelds.
  • Posts: 684
    Tangential thought: if Eon had filmed the novels faithfully and in the proper order back in the same time period, then sticking with the same actors I would tweak the casting: Gray as Blofeld in TB, Pleasence as Blofeld in OHMSS, and Savalas as Blofeld in YOLT.
  • Posts: 684
    I enjoy the fact that he's always played by someone different. I know the Craig era has been more conscious of continuity, but if Blofeld is back in Bond 25 I'm all for ousting Waltz and bringing someone else in. Wouldn't bother me a bit.
  • w2bondw2bond is indeed a very rare breed
    Posts: 2,252
    The more I listen to it the more I love the quantum soundtrack. Bondian without blaring the Bond theme in your face. Of only Arnold's other scores were of this quality and richness.

    Not much will much the themes Barry produced (he's dangerous, Bob sled chase) - he left such a mark that all composers will be compared with him. And that is unfair to Arnold for QoS because it matches and surpasses a few Barry efforts, which while brilliant felt repetitive in the later years (ice chase theme).

    If only no good about good bye was the theme song...I must also add here that AWTD is also quite Bondian in this theme and melody (particularly the opening) and for that reason it's already better than the other crap theme songs (DAD, WotW)
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