Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 7,507
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I rewatched the elevator fight scene and it's worse than I remembered. The fight starts as Bond makes a blunder breaking that glass raising his arm to punch Peter Franks. It starts with a joke. He finally gets the upper hand with the equivalent of a pie in the face. That's the best Hamilton could come up with?


    At least he "knew it was ridiculous and didn't care" ;)
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    Takes away the tension. And Bond is far from the lethal assassin he's meant to be there. I think I prefer the ice hockey fight scene.

    Woah now. . . steady on, mate.
  • edited November 2018 Posts: 17,753
    bondjames wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    It's not a great film by any means and probably the least Bondian film in the cannon, but it's one of my go-tos and I always enjoy it. My second favorite Connery
    When I was a kid I loved it. Then I began to dislike it a lot. Now I love it again. The same thing has happened with MR.


    May I ask what it is that you love?
    In DAF it's the dialogue, wit, humour & score, as well as the campy charisma of the characters (including Gray's Blofeld, Wint & Kidd, Bambi & Thumper etc. etc.). There's an assuredness to the whole thing that extends to Connery's performance and confident delivery. As though everyone knows how ridiculous it is and doesn't care. I quite like the pacing of it too, as I never find myself bored. The banter between Connery and Gray is also entertaining.

    I don't rank it high, but it is a 'go-to' film of mine when I want a fun quick fix of Bond.

    These are my thoughts re. DAF too. I absolutely love that film (which will be a controversial opinion).

    Edit: DAF is toying with a top ten for me. In that ranking message/link we all got a few days ago I put it inside the top ten, just because of how much I enjoy it.
  • Posts: 16,154
    My controversial opinion: I prefer the elevator fight to CR's stairwell fight.
  • Posts: 1,917
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I rewatched the elevator fight scene and it's worse than I remembered. The fight starts as Bond makes a blunder breaking that glass raising his arm to punch Peter Franks. It starts with a joke. He finally gets the upper hand with the equivalent of a pie in the face. That's the best Hamilton could come up with?

    Your views are interesting, but I really disagree with some of the things you're coming up with.

    How is that broken glass a joke? It's called suspense. Bond slugs Franks and knocks him out and it's over. This builds the tension and at the same time adds to it when Franks picks up the broken glass to attack with it.

    Same for the spray to the face, why is that a joke? He avoids being struck with a hook
    (now why was that there?) and uses what he can to overcome Franks. Bond is always improvising things to gain the upper hand on an opponent. Think the spray to the face in the TMWTGG dressing room fight or throwing the maggots in the guard's face in LTK as 2 examples of doing this.

    Other reactions to what others have posted on this: Franks didn't fall 3 feet and even if he did if you hit the right way you're screwed.

    The Grant comparison is good, but that film had the advantage of seeing Grant in action. True we didn't know Franks' badass credentials, but they said he killed a guard on the way up to London, so he wasn't some wimp either. And knowing Joe Robinson who played Franks was a judo champ and tough guy in real life only adds to it.


  • I'm very late to this, but I agree with the (possibly not controversial) opinion that Brosnan aged remarkably well. In fact, he looked more like Bond the further into the role he got, particularly in the jump from GE to TND.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    TWINE was at his peak in terms of his look, in my opinion. He looked more Bond than anybody else could’ve looked like in that film.
  • JamesBondKenyaJamesBondKenya Danny Boyle laughs to himself
    Posts: 2,730
    Couldn’t agree more
  • Posts: 7,507
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I rewatched the elevator fight scene and it's worse than I remembered. The fight starts as Bond makes a blunder breaking that glass raising his arm to punch Peter Franks. It starts with a joke. He finally gets the upper hand with the equivalent of a pie in the face. That's the best Hamilton could come up with?

    Your views are interesting, but I really disagree with some of the things you're coming up with.

    How is that broken glass a joke? It's called suspense. Bond slugs Franks and knocks him out and it's over. This builds the tension and at the same time adds to it when Franks picks up the broken glass to attack with it.

    Same for the spray to the face, why is that a joke? He avoids being struck with a hook
    (now why was that there?) and uses what he can to overcome Franks. Bond is always improvising things to gain the upper hand on an opponent. Think the spray to the face in the TMWTGG dressing room fight or throwing the maggots in the guard's face in LTK as 2 examples of doing this.

    Other reactions to what others have posted on this: Franks didn't fall 3 feet and even if he did if you hit the right way you're screwed.

    The Grant comparison is good, but that film had the advantage of seeing Grant in action. True we didn't know Franks' badass credentials, but they said he killed a guard on the way up to London, so he wasn't some wimp either. And knowing Joe Robinson who played Franks was a judo champ and tough guy in real life only adds to it.



    The joke in question is obviously the overtly silly "who is your floor?" line. Connery is not even able to say it with a straight face although he is in a tense, potentialy life threatening situation.

    The broken glass is obviously necesarry for this to be a suspensful fight in the first place. But that is not the point. The question raised is "could he [Hamilton] not have come up with anything better?". Personaly I feel bad whenever I have to see Bond look like a clumsy fool.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I watched the Bond-Franks fight last night and I'm still not sure how he actually died by falling like 3 feet. Bond took the elevator down for like 2 seconds. Unless the fire foam melted his face

    I think that's what sinks it for me: that foam. It's like a pie in the face joke. It gives a comedic turn to the whole thing.

    @octofinger it's like two middle aged men who had too many pints on a Friday night after work and get in a row. DAF must be quite poor overall for people to think this fight is the highlight of the movie.


    Well... it is a poor movie. I know it has its fans, but still I am always surprised when I read or hear positive remarks about it. There is just hardly anything I enjoy about it at all. I appreciate it as a member of the Bond family, nothing more.

    This. It's by far and away the nadir of the Connery era, and one of the bottom 3 of the series for me.

    It's slow, strangely paced. Charles Gray was far better suited to the somewhat camp portrayal of Henderson in YOLT than Blofeld. His relationship with Bond is so ridiculously genial, after what happened in OHMSS, it's eye rolling. The finale is weak, the side characters, apart from Wint and Kidd are poor. The film looks cheap and tawdry, especially in comparison with the beautiful cinematography of the previous two, far better films. Connery looks ready for the knackers yard. As great as he was it was a blessing in disguise that Mankeiwitz(I think I spelt that right) and Cubby couldn't convince him to come back for LALD.

    The only thing I really like about it is another great soundtrack from John Barry.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    I'm very late to this, but I agree with the (possibly not controversial) opinion that Brosnan aged remarkably well. In fact, he looked more like Bond the further into the role he got, particularly in the jump from GE to TND.

    Indeed.

    I really don't understand the hate for Broz. His era was patchy, but Craig's has been too. He was an excellent Bond in my opinion, it's just unfortunate that his last two films where weak.

  • Posts: 15,114
    octofinger wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Takes away the tension. And Bond is far from the lethal assassin he's meant to be there. I think I prefer the ice hockey fight scene.

    Woah now. . . steady on, mate.

    I'm not saying it's great. But at least it's ice hockey.
  • Posts: 15,114
    BT3366 wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I rewatched the elevator fight scene and it's worse than I remembered. The fight starts as Bond makes a blunder breaking that glass raising his arm to punch Peter Franks. It starts with a joke. He finally gets the upper hand with the equivalent of a pie in the face. That's the best Hamilton could come up with?

    Your views are interesting, but I really disagree with some of the things you're coming up with.

    How is that broken glass a joke? It's called suspense. Bond slugs Franks and knocks him out and it's over. This builds the tension and at the same time adds to it when Franks picks up the broken glass to attack with it.

    Same for the spray to the face, why is that a joke? He avoids being struck with a hook
    (now why was that there?) and uses what he can to overcome Franks. Bond is always improvising things to gain the upper hand on an opponent. Think the spray to the face in the TMWTGG dressing room fight or throwing the maggots in the guard's face in LTK as 2 examples of doing this.

    Other reactions to what others have posted on this: Franks didn't fall 3 feet and even if he did if you hit the right way you're screwed.

    The Grant comparison is good, but that film had the advantage of seeing Grant in action. True we didn't know Franks' badass credentials, but they said he killed a guard on the way up to London, so he wasn't some wimp either. And knowing Joe Robinson who played Franks was a judo champ and tough guy in real life only adds to it.


    It's all in the tone of the scene and the acting. The actor playing Franks looks menacing and thuggish enough. I can see him killing someone with his bare hands. No problem here. But there's little if any suspense. The broken glass is taken as a oops moment, not built up as a suspenseful. I understand Bond can and should be using whatever he can find to get the upper hand, but it still comes up as a pie in the face moment.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Roadphill wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I watched the Bond-Franks fight last night and I'm still not sure how he actually died by falling like 3 feet. Bond took the elevator down for like 2 seconds. Unless the fire foam melted his face

    I think that's what sinks it for me: that foam. It's like a pie in the face joke. It gives a comedic turn to the whole thing.

    @octofinger it's like two middle aged men who had too many pints on a Friday night after work and get in a row. DAF must be quite poor overall for people to think this fight is the highlight of the movie.


    Well... it is a poor movie. I know it has its fans, but still I am always surprised when I read or hear positive remarks about it. There is just hardly anything I enjoy about it at all. I appreciate it as a member of the Bond family, nothing more.

    This. It's by far and away the nadir of the Connery era, and one of the bottom 3 of the series for me.

    It's slow, strangely paced. Charles Gray was far better suited to the somewhat camp portrayal of Henderson in YOLT than Blofeld. His relationship with Bond is so ridiculously genial, after what happened in OHMSS, it's eye rolling. The finale is weak, the side characters, apart from Wint and Kidd are poor. The film looks cheap and tawdry, especially in comparison with the beautiful cinematography of the previous two, far better films. Connery looks ready for the knackers yard. As great as he was it was a blessing in disguise that Mankeiwitz(I think I spelt that right) and Cubby couldn't convince him to come back for LALD.

    The only thing I really like about it is another great soundtrack from John Barry.


    Speaking of Mankie... eh... witz... something...? Wasn't this the first Bond film he worked on? And he left after Moonraker, am I right? I'd argue no other screen writer has had a bigger influence on the style and tone on the Bond films he worked on as him. (Maibaum is obviously much more important to the franchise overall, but he didn't have the same influence on tone specifically.) And for the worse I feel, unfortunately. It is not a coincidence that his era is my least favorite in the Bond canon. His style of humor is neither appropriate for Bond, nor very funny in my opinion. The actual good jokes are far between and outnumbered by the bad or out right cringy ones. Although I understand this was different times, I still can't rap my head around why the producers thought this was the way to go after Majesty. If I was gonna be very harsh and slightly provocative, I'd say classic Bond didn't end with Connery, but rather with the appointment of Mankiewitz (or whatever the correct spelling is...). Ouch...
  • Posts: 15,114
    DAF was written as a Bond spoof, plain and simple. A necessary evil at the time, but most definitely evil.
  • Posts: 11,189
    I’m not the biggest DAF fan, but in its defense some of the darker moments of humour do seem appropriate for Bond. Mr Slummber’s undertakers could have been dreamt up by Fleming.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    bondjames wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    It's not a great film by any means and probably the least Bondian film in the cannon, but it's one of my go-tos and I always enjoy it. My second favorite Connery
    When I was a kid I loved it. Then I began to dislike it a lot. Now I love it again. The same thing has happened with MR.


    May I ask what it is that you love?
    In DAF it's the dialogue, wit, humour & score, as well as the campy charisma of the characters (including Gray's Blofeld, Wint & Kidd, Bambi & Thumper etc. etc.). There's an assuredness to the whole thing that extends to Connery's performance and confident delivery. As though everyone knows how ridiculous it is and doesn't care. I quite like the pacing of it too, as I never find myself bored. The banter between Connery and Gray is also entertaining.

    I don't rank it high, but it is a 'go-to' film of mine when I want a fun quick fix of Bond.

    These are my thoughts re. DAF too. I absolutely love that film (which will be a controversial opinion).

    Edit: DAF is toying with a top ten for me. In that ranking message/link we all got a few days ago I put it inside the top ten, just because of how much I enjoy it.

    What message/link is this? First I hear of it.
  • Posts: 17,753
    bondjames wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    It's not a great film by any means and probably the least Bondian film in the cannon, but it's one of my go-tos and I always enjoy it. My second favorite Connery
    When I was a kid I loved it. Then I began to dislike it a lot. Now I love it again. The same thing has happened with MR.


    May I ask what it is that you love?
    In DAF it's the dialogue, wit, humour & score, as well as the campy charisma of the characters (including Gray's Blofeld, Wint & Kidd, Bambi & Thumper etc. etc.). There's an assuredness to the whole thing that extends to Connery's performance and confident delivery. As though everyone knows how ridiculous it is and doesn't care. I quite like the pacing of it too, as I never find myself bored. The banter between Connery and Gray is also entertaining.

    I don't rank it high, but it is a 'go-to' film of mine when I want a fun quick fix of Bond.

    These are my thoughts re. DAF too. I absolutely love that film (which will be a controversial opinion).

    Edit: DAF is toying with a top ten for me. In that ranking message/link we all got a few days ago I put it inside the top ten, just because of how much I enjoy it.

    What message/link is this? First I hear of it.

    Didn't you get it? It was sent by the user named @Mister_JBN, and was really just about a poll over at jamesbond.nl, where you can vote for your top ten Bond films.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    No.
  • edited November 2018 Posts: 17,753
    No.

    That's strange. Here's the voting link from the message: https://jamesbond.nl/top-2018/
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    Thanks.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Still on the subject of Diamonds, it amazes me how highly regarded Guy Hamilton was in the pantheon of Bond directors. I can't think of any that had less visual flair than him. Even Goldfinger would have benefited massively from Terence Young or Lewis Gilbert at the helm.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    DAF is nothing more than a stain on the series. Connery is in poor shape, his weight gain is noticeable and he doesn't look the least bit interested in the film. I dislike DAF immensely. Watching Connery in DAF, is like watching a past his prime Ali.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    To be honest, he was way worse in YOLT. Performance-wise, look-wise and believability-wise.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    Posts: 13,978
    I have to disagree on that. YOLT isn't Connery at his peak, but he is still in better all round shape than he was in DAF. Despite looking redder than a raddish, he was even in better shape in NSNA than in DAF. He also looks more engaged in what is going on around in during NSNA than in DAF. With that in mind, it is a shame that NSNA was born out of spite and greed.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    No arguments about NSNA being better than both of his final two official outings.

    I don't personally find Connery engaged in YOLT in the slightest. He was just reciting his lines rather than speaking them in character, in my opinion. He looked a bit more lively in DAF and enjoying himself more than in his previous entry. That's how I see it.
  • Posts: 17,753
    No arguments about NSNA being better than both of his final two official outings.

    I don't personally find Connery engaged in YOLT in the slightest. He was just reciting his lines rather than speaking them in character, in my opinion. He looked a bit more lively in DAF and enjoying himself more than in his previous entry. That's how I see it.
    That's my opinion re. YOLT vs DAF too. The first feels like a Connery sick and tired of it all, while the latter feels like a Connery enjoying playing the part one final time (before returning yet again with NSNA).
  • Posts: 15,114
    Roadphill wrote: »
    Still on the subject of Diamonds, it amazes me how highly regarded Guy Hamilton was in the pantheon of Bond directors. I can't think of any that had less visual flair than him. Even Goldfinger would have benefited massively from Terence Young or Lewis Gilbert at the helm.

    I never thought Hamilton was that great myself.

    People mention Connery enjoying himself in DAF and I agree, but it shows too much in the film.
  • edited December 2018 Posts: 11,189
    3 out of 4 of Hamilton’s films I’m not that wild about and one I genuinely dislike.

    Connery’s pretty good in DAF but his appearance makes him look like a lounge lizard. Hard to believe he’s the same man we saw in DN FRWL and GF.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    DAF is nothing more than a stain on the series. Connery is in poor shape, his weight gain is noticeable and he doesn't look the least bit interested in the film. I dislike DAF immensely. Watching Connery in DAF, is like watching a past his prime Ali.
    I get your point, but a past his prime Ali was still Ali (which is to say, the 'greatest'), and I feel the same way about Connery in DAF.
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