Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    MooreFun wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    - hands down, the best attire Bond has worn since the 60’s.
    - Valentin Dmytrovich Zukovsky. This guy cracks me up everytime he’s on screen. Great final scene as well.

    aJuaBHu.jpg

    Always love this shot. Valentin looking fly, Bond looking serious, and we can see the two biggest reasons Denise Richards was cast in this role.

    Of those three, she is the only one I care for.
  • Posts: 7,507
    MooreFun wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    - hands down, the best attire Bond has worn since the 60’s.
    - Valentin Dmytrovich Zukovsky. This guy cracks me up everytime he’s on screen. Great final scene as well.

    aJuaBHu.jpg

    Always love this shot. Valentin looking fly, Bond looking serious, and we can see the two biggest reasons Denise Richards was cast in this role.


    If that is representative of "the best attire since the 60s", I am not impressed ;))
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    It wipes the floor with anything seen in SF and SP. ;)
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    I'm not that a big fan of TWINE, but it's certainly not that bad either. It has a lot of fun stuff in there. Dr. Jones may not be convincing as a nuclear fysisist, she is a fun character. Valentin Zukovski too. Renard and Elektra may not work that fantastically but they're not that bad either, and considering the gene therapy of DAD, or the pew-pew lasers in Moonraker......
  • Creasy47Creasy47 In Cuba with Natalya.Moderator
    Posts: 40,968
    It wipes the floor with anything seen in SF and SP. ;)

    For sure, but I got to say, one of the few highlights of SP is his Morocco outfit.
  • Posts: 15,114
    Not sure how controversial this is, but I find that CR seems to be the Bond movie that breaks with the most success the gender divide. My wife likes no other Bond movie. None, however hard I tried. But she told me yesterday that CR is one of the best movies she ever saw. And one of her favourite. And I've seen a similar reactions from other women.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    @Ludovico Funnily enough, my wife isn't much of a Bond fan either, but she likes CR. Also OHMSS and FYEO. I think it's the more romantic angle of those particular films that resonate with the ladies.
  • Posts: 15,114
    Roadphill wrote: »
    @Ludovico Funnily enough, my wife isn't much of a Bond fan either, but she likes CR. Also OHMSS and FYEO. I think it's the more romantic angle of those particular films that resonate with the ladies.

    I think so too. My wife hasn't watched FYEO, but I tried to make her watch OHMSS. She quickly got bored and lost interest.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    @Ludovico Funnily enough, my wife isn't much of a Bond fan either, but she likes CR. Also OHMSS and FYEO. I think it's the more romantic angle of those particular films that resonate with the ladies.

    I think so too. My wife hasn't watched FYEO, but I tried to make her watch OHMSS. She quickly got bored and lost interest.

    That was probably on purpose (she wasn't going to be not-bored, probably had something else on her mind the whole time). Timing is everything....
  • Posts: 15,114
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    @Ludovico Funnily enough, my wife isn't much of a Bond fan either, but she likes CR. Also OHMSS and FYEO. I think it's the more romantic angle of those particular films that resonate with the ladies.

    I think so too. My wife hasn't watched FYEO, but I tried to make her watch OHMSS. She quickly got bored and lost interest.

    That was probably on purpose (she wasn't going to be not-bored, probably had something else on her mind the whole time). Timing is everything....

    I don't think so. Or else I get unlucky for every single Bond movie I try to watch with her. CR is the only one she ever felt a genuine interest to.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    @Ludovico Funnily enough, my wife isn't much of a Bond fan either, but she likes CR. Also OHMSS and FYEO. I think it's the more romantic angle of those particular films that resonate with the ladies.

    I think so too. My wife hasn't watched FYEO, but I tried to make her watch OHMSS. She quickly got bored and lost interest.

    That was probably on purpose (she wasn't going to be not-bored, probably had something else on her mind the whole time). Timing is everything....

    I don't think so. Or else I get unlucky for every single Bond movie I try to watch with her. CR is the only one she ever felt a genuine interest to.


    I have the same experience showing OHMSS to friends (of all sexes). It seems like a film which appeals to fans, not so much the general public. Having read the book and seen it many times, makes me appreciate it more I feel.
  • Posts: 15,114
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    @Ludovico Funnily enough, my wife isn't much of a Bond fan either, but she likes CR. Also OHMSS and FYEO. I think it's the more romantic angle of those particular films that resonate with the ladies.

    I think so too. My wife hasn't watched FYEO, but I tried to make her watch OHMSS. She quickly got bored and lost interest.

    That was probably on purpose (she wasn't going to be not-bored, probably had something else on her mind the whole time). Timing is everything....

    I don't think so. Or else I get unlucky for every single Bond movie I try to watch with her. CR is the only one she ever felt a genuine interest to.


    I have the same experience showing OHMSS to friends (of all sexes). It seems like a film which appeals to fans, not so much the general public. Having read the book and seen it many times, makes me appreciate it more I feel.

    I think it's due to some misconceptions from the general public: Bond should not fall in love (a friend of mine said the same thing about CR), Sean Connery is not in it so it can't be good, etc.

    Talking of the general public, I will say it again: it is their indulgence towards Connery that made DAF far more popular than it deserves.
  • Ludovico wrote: »
    Not sure how controversial this is, but I find that CR seems to be the Bond movie that breaks with the most success the gender divide. My wife likes no other Bond movie. None, however hard I tried. But she told me yesterday that CR is one of the best movies she ever saw. And one of her favourite. And I've seen a similar reactions from other women.

    Same with my wife. Whenever I put one of the old movies on she doesn't really want to know. But she loved CR and did get into the Craig era because of it. She didn't really like SP but I'm sure she'll still come to see Bond 25 with me the day it's released (having said that I think she knows really that she doesn't have any choice given how tragic I am when it comes to Bond and the amount of crap I've sat through with her xD ). Probably no coincidence that two of the few girls on here are fans solely because of Craig as well. I think he's definitely the Bond that appeals most to women.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    @Ludovico Funnily enough, my wife isn't much of a Bond fan either, but she likes CR. Also OHMSS and FYEO. I think it's the more romantic angle of those particular films that resonate with the ladies.

    I think so too. My wife hasn't watched FYEO, but I tried to make her watch OHMSS. She quickly got bored and lost interest.

    That was probably on purpose (she wasn't going to be not-bored, probably had something else on her mind the whole time). Timing is everything....

    I don't think so. Or else I get unlucky for every single Bond movie I try to watch with her. CR is the only one she ever felt a genuine interest to.


    I have the same experience showing OHMSS to friends (of all sexes). It seems like a film which appeals to fans, not so much the general public. Having read the book and seen it many times, makes me appreciate it more I feel.

    I think it's due to some misconceptions from the general public: Bond should not fall in love (a friend of mine said the same thing about CR), Sean Connery is not in it so it can't be good, etc.

    Talking of the general public, I will say it again: it is their indulgence towards Connery that made DAF far more popular than it deserves.

    Admittedly I haven't even tried it yet with my wife (known her for 2 years and we've managed to see as many films together anyway). So perhaps you're right, and indeed it would explain a lot about DAF.
  • Posts: 15,114
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Not sure how controversial this is, but I find that CR seems to be the Bond movie that breaks with the most success the gender divide. My wife likes no other Bond movie. None, however hard I tried. But she told me yesterday that CR is one of the best movies she ever saw. And one of her favourite. And I've seen a similar reactions from other women.

    Same with my wife. Whenever I put one of the old movies on she doesn't really want to know. But she loved CR and did get into the Craig era because of it. She didn't really like SP but I'm sure she'll still come to see Bond 25 with me the day it's released (having said that I think she knows really that she doesn't have any choice given how tragic I am when it comes to Bond and the amount of crap I've sat through with her xD ). Probably no coincidence that two of the few girls on here are fans solely because of Craig as well. I think he's definitely the Bond that appeals most to women.

    One of my former colleagues (nasty, stupid snake who used to clash with me on everything, professional or not), said that Craig was not an appealing Bond because of his looks. Not handsome enough, etc. I said that CR and SF proved him wrong and that Craig tends to be underestimated in the charm department by men. I only have personal experience to back it up of course and it is not exactly representative, but I think he has a good female fanbase.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    Posts: 23,883
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Not sure how controversial this is, but I find that CR seems to be the Bond movie that breaks with the most success the gender divide. My wife likes no other Bond movie. None, however hard I tried. But she told me yesterday that CR is one of the best movies she ever saw. And one of her favourite. And I've seen a similar reactions from other women.

    Same with my wife. Whenever I put one of the old movies on she doesn't really want to know. But she loved CR and did get into the Craig era because of it. She didn't really like SP but I'm sure she'll still come to see Bond 25 with me the day it's released (having said that I think she knows really that she doesn't have any choice given how tragic I am when it comes to Bond and the amount of crap I've sat through with her xD ). Probably no coincidence that two of the few girls on here are fans solely because of Craig as well. I think he's definitely the Bond that appeals most to women.

    One of my former colleagues (nasty, stupid snake who used to clash with me on everything, professional or not), said that Craig was not an appealing Bond because of his looks. Not handsome enough, etc. I said that CR and SF proved him wrong and that Craig tends to be underestimated in the charm department by men. I only have personal experience to back it up of course and it is not exactly representative, but I think he has a good female fanbase.
    The two most critically successful and impactful Bond films he has made have narratives which are more specifically designed to appeal to women in my opinion. That was a matter of design. It's not easy to isolate how much of the appeal is down to Craig and how much is down to the stories themselves, but I suspect there's a little bit of both. CR & SF have emotional resonance.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Not sure how controversial this is, but I find that CR seems to be the Bond movie that breaks with the most success the gender divide. My wife likes no other Bond movie. None, however hard I tried. But she told me yesterday that CR is one of the best movies she ever saw. And one of her favourite. And I've seen a similar reactions from other women.

    Same with my wife. Whenever I put one of the old movies on she doesn't really want to know. But she loved CR and did get into the Craig era because of it. She didn't really like SP but I'm sure she'll still come to see Bond 25 with me the day it's released (having said that I think she knows really that she doesn't have any choice given how tragic I am when it comes to Bond and the amount of crap I've sat through with her xD ). Probably no coincidence that two of the few girls on here are fans solely because of Craig as well. I think he's definitely the Bond that appeals most to women.

    One of my former colleagues (nasty, stupid snake who used to clash with me on everything, professional or not), said that Craig was not an appealing Bond because of his looks. Not handsome enough, etc. I said that CR and SF proved him wrong and that Craig tends to be underestimated in the charm department by men. I only have personal experience to back it up of course and it is not exactly representative, but I think he has a good female fanbase.
    The two most critically successful and impactful Bond films he has made have narratives which are more specifically designed to appeal to women in my opinion. That was a matter of design. It's not easy to isolate how much of the appeal is down to Craig and how much is down to the stories themselves, but I suspect there's a little bit of both. CR & SF have emotional resonance.

    But was CR designed to appeal to women? I don't think Fleming had that in mind, considering the way Bond dives into his relationships in other novels. The guy really tries. The film is merely an update to the modern day situation and doesn't differ that much from Fleming's narrative. If anything, in the film he's more of a masochinist then in the book (courting the wife of a terrorism-organiser).
    And I'm not convinced SF had those intentions either. It's more P&W paying homage to Judi Dench's M.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2018 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Not sure how controversial this is, but I find that CR seems to be the Bond movie that breaks with the most success the gender divide. My wife likes no other Bond movie. None, however hard I tried. But she told me yesterday that CR is one of the best movies she ever saw. And one of her favourite. And I've seen a similar reactions from other women.

    Same with my wife. Whenever I put one of the old movies on she doesn't really want to know. But she loved CR and did get into the Craig era because of it. She didn't really like SP but I'm sure she'll still come to see Bond 25 with me the day it's released (having said that I think she knows really that she doesn't have any choice given how tragic I am when it comes to Bond and the amount of crap I've sat through with her xD ). Probably no coincidence that two of the few girls on here are fans solely because of Craig as well. I think he's definitely the Bond that appeals most to women.

    One of my former colleagues (nasty, stupid snake who used to clash with me on everything, professional or not), said that Craig was not an appealing Bond because of his looks. Not handsome enough, etc. I said that CR and SF proved him wrong and that Craig tends to be underestimated in the charm department by men. I only have personal experience to back it up of course and it is not exactly representative, but I think he has a good female fanbase.
    The two most critically successful and impactful Bond films he has made have narratives which are more specifically designed to appeal to women in my opinion. That was a matter of design. It's not easy to isolate how much of the appeal is down to Craig and how much is down to the stories themselves, but I suspect there's a little bit of both. CR & SF have emotional resonance.

    But was CR designed to appeal to women? I don't think Fleming had that in mind, considering the way Bond dives into his relationships in other novels. The guy really tries. The film is merely an update to the modern day situation and doesn't differ that much from Fleming's narrative. If anything, in the film he's more of a masochinist then in the book (courting the wife of a terrorism-organiser).
    And I'm not convinced SF had those intentions either. It's more P&W paying homage to Judi Dench's M.
    I certainly think both films are crafted in a manner which appeals to people who have an emotional sensitivity, and therefore more so to women. There's the narrative, and then there's the execution of that narrative. It's in the little moments, like the shower scene, the train scene, the ride to the hotel, the hotel receptionist episode, the stairwell fight and of course the final traumatic scene (changed from the book). This can be viewed readily from a woman's perspective. Of course, one needs to sell it, and Eva Green does. Similarly in SF, Dench does what's required to sell her guilt, inner strength and duty. These are all attributes that women (and particularly mothers or grandmothers) can relate to, just as men can relate to Bond's physical fortitude and sense of duty.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Not sure how controversial this is, but I find that CR seems to be the Bond movie that breaks with the most success the gender divide. My wife likes no other Bond movie. None, however hard I tried. But she told me yesterday that CR is one of the best movies she ever saw. And one of her favourite. And I've seen a similar reactions from other women.

    Same with my wife. Whenever I put one of the old movies on she doesn't really want to know. But she loved CR and did get into the Craig era because of it. She didn't really like SP but I'm sure she'll still come to see Bond 25 with me the day it's released (having said that I think she knows really that she doesn't have any choice given how tragic I am when it comes to Bond and the amount of crap I've sat through with her xD ). Probably no coincidence that two of the few girls on here are fans solely because of Craig as well. I think he's definitely the Bond that appeals most to women.

    One of my former colleagues (nasty, stupid snake who used to clash with me on everything, professional or not), said that Craig was not an appealing Bond because of his looks. Not handsome enough, etc. I said that CR and SF proved him wrong and that Craig tends to be underestimated in the charm department by men. I only have personal experience to back it up of course and it is not exactly representative, but I think he has a good female fanbase.
    The two most critically successful and impactful Bond films he has made have narratives which are more specifically designed to appeal to women in my opinion. That was a matter of design. It's not easy to isolate how much of the appeal is down to Craig and how much is down to the stories themselves, but I suspect there's a little bit of both. CR & SF have emotional resonance.

    But was CR designed to appeal to women? I don't think Fleming had that in mind, considering the way Bond dives into his relationships in other novels. The guy really tries. The film is merely an update to the modern day situation and doesn't differ that much from Fleming's narrative. If anything, in the film he's more of a masochinist then in the book (courting the wife of a terrorism-organiser).
    And I'm not convinced SF had those intentions either. It's more P&W paying homage to Judi Dench's M.
    I certainly think both films are crafted in a manner which appeals to people who have an emotional sensitivity, and therefore more so to women. There's the narrative, and then there's the execution of that narrative. It's in the little moments, like the shower scene, the train scene, the ride to the hotel, the hotel receptionist episode, the stairwell fight and of course the final traumatic scene (changed from the book). This can be viewed readily from a woman's perspective. Of course, one needs to sell it, and Eva Green does. Similarly in SF, Dench does what's required to sell her guilt, inner strength and duty. These are all attributes that women (and particularly mothers or grandmothers) can relate to, just as men can relate to Bond's physical fortitude and sense of duty.

    For me that's just good storytelling, as Fleming did himself as well. The films did depart from that path, making Bond's involvement more superficial and making Bond films into charicatures. But at the same time such emotional involvement isn't unique to the action/spy genre. Take Mad Max, a film that starts with the very emotion the rest of the film floats on. It's the involvement that makes the whole film work. Same goes for CR and SF. The only real difference I see with previous Bonds is the acting talent, which is on par with the nineteen sixties level. I'd say OHMSS i.e. takes far more time to show their love then CR does.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2018 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Not sure how controversial this is, but I find that CR seems to be the Bond movie that breaks with the most success the gender divide. My wife likes no other Bond movie. None, however hard I tried. But she told me yesterday that CR is one of the best movies she ever saw. And one of her favourite. And I've seen a similar reactions from other women.

    Same with my wife. Whenever I put one of the old movies on she doesn't really want to know. But she loved CR and did get into the Craig era because of it. She didn't really like SP but I'm sure she'll still come to see Bond 25 with me the day it's released (having said that I think she knows really that she doesn't have any choice given how tragic I am when it comes to Bond and the amount of crap I've sat through with her xD ). Probably no coincidence that two of the few girls on here are fans solely because of Craig as well. I think he's definitely the Bond that appeals most to women.

    One of my former colleagues (nasty, stupid snake who used to clash with me on everything, professional or not), said that Craig was not an appealing Bond because of his looks. Not handsome enough, etc. I said that CR and SF proved him wrong and that Craig tends to be underestimated in the charm department by men. I only have personal experience to back it up of course and it is not exactly representative, but I think he has a good female fanbase.
    The two most critically successful and impactful Bond films he has made have narratives which are more specifically designed to appeal to women in my opinion. That was a matter of design. It's not easy to isolate how much of the appeal is down to Craig and how much is down to the stories themselves, but I suspect there's a little bit of both. CR & SF have emotional resonance.

    But was CR designed to appeal to women? I don't think Fleming had that in mind, considering the way Bond dives into his relationships in other novels. The guy really tries. The film is merely an update to the modern day situation and doesn't differ that much from Fleming's narrative. If anything, in the film he's more of a masochinist then in the book (courting the wife of a terrorism-organiser).
    And I'm not convinced SF had those intentions either. It's more P&W paying homage to Judi Dench's M.
    I certainly think both films are crafted in a manner which appeals to people who have an emotional sensitivity, and therefore more so to women. There's the narrative, and then there's the execution of that narrative. It's in the little moments, like the shower scene, the train scene, the ride to the hotel, the hotel receptionist episode, the stairwell fight and of course the final traumatic scene (changed from the book). This can be viewed readily from a woman's perspective. Of course, one needs to sell it, and Eva Green does. Similarly in SF, Dench does what's required to sell her guilt, inner strength and duty. These are all attributes that women (and particularly mothers or grandmothers) can relate to, just as men can relate to Bond's physical fortitude and sense of duty.

    For me that's just good storytelling, as Fleming did himself as well. The films did depart from that path, making Bond's involvement more superficial and making Bond films into charicatures. But at the same time such emotional involvement isn't unique to the action/spy genre. Take Mad Max, a film that starts with the very emotion the rest of the film floats on. It's the involvement that makes the whole film work. Same goes for CR and SF. The only real difference I see with previous Bonds is the acting talent, which is on par with the nineteen sixties level. I'd say OHMSS i.e. takes far more time to show their love then CR does.
    I agree that OHMSS deals with the love angle better, at least from my perspective. It's more subtle (as one could perhaps expect from the time) but more compelling. That barn scene is one of the best in the series, and I can't say the same for the beach scene in CR.

    My point is just that these particular scenes and moments sprinkled throughout CR and SF, as well as the strong female characters in both films (Dench and Green are both co-leads in a way, at least imho) help both films to appeal to women. CR can very easily be appreciated from both Bond's and Vesper's perspective. Similarly SF from Bond's and from M's. I don't think the same applies to SP. Seydoux was poorly written, and she failed to resonate in the same manner. Therefore there is an element missing that was there in the more critically successful Craig entries. I know QoS is loved by some members here, but in the general public sphere it is mainly forgotten, so it too didn't resonate on that level - I'd go so far as to say it's the most male centric Craig film.

    I agree that the acting is critical, and both Green and Dench nail it.
  • Posts: 15,114
    What struck me about CR is that my wife got interested about it the moment she saw the first trailer. It never happened after.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Not sure how controversial this is, but I find that CR seems to be the Bond movie that breaks with the most success the gender divide. My wife likes no other Bond movie. None, however hard I tried. But she told me yesterday that CR is one of the best movies she ever saw. And one of her favourite. And I've seen a similar reactions from other women.

    Same with my wife. Whenever I put one of the old movies on she doesn't really want to know. But she loved CR and did get into the Craig era because of it. She didn't really like SP but I'm sure she'll still come to see Bond 25 with me the day it's released (having said that I think she knows really that she doesn't have any choice given how tragic I am when it comes to Bond and the amount of crap I've sat through with her xD ). Probably no coincidence that two of the few girls on here are fans solely because of Craig as well. I think he's definitely the Bond that appeals most to women.

    One of my former colleagues (nasty, stupid snake who used to clash with me on everything, professional or not), said that Craig was not an appealing Bond because of his looks. Not handsome enough, etc. I said that CR and SF proved him wrong and that Craig tends to be underestimated in the charm department by men. I only have personal experience to back it up of course and it is not exactly representative, but I think he has a good female fanbase.
    The two most critically successful and impactful Bond films he has made have narratives which are more specifically designed to appeal to women in my opinion. That was a matter of design. It's not easy to isolate how much of the appeal is down to Craig and how much is down to the stories themselves, but I suspect there's a little bit of both. CR & SF have emotional resonance.

    But was CR designed to appeal to women? I don't think Fleming had that in mind, considering the way Bond dives into his relationships in other novels. The guy really tries. The film is merely an update to the modern day situation and doesn't differ that much from Fleming's narrative. If anything, in the film he's more of a masochinist then in the book (courting the wife of a terrorism-organiser).
    And I'm not convinced SF had those intentions either. It's more P&W paying homage to Judi Dench's M.
    I certainly think both films are crafted in a manner which appeals to people who have an emotional sensitivity, and therefore more so to women. There's the narrative, and then there's the execution of that narrative. It's in the little moments, like the shower scene, the train scene, the ride to the hotel, the hotel receptionist episode, the stairwell fight and of course the final traumatic scene (changed from the book). This can be viewed readily from a woman's perspective. Of course, one needs to sell it, and Eva Green does. Similarly in SF, Dench does what's required to sell her guilt, inner strength and duty. These are all attributes that women (and particularly mothers or grandmothers) can relate to, just as men can relate to Bond's physical fortitude and sense of duty.

    For me that's just good storytelling, as Fleming did himself as well. The films did depart from that path, making Bond's involvement more superficial and making Bond films into charicatures. But at the same time such emotional involvement isn't unique to the action/spy genre. Take Mad Max, a film that starts with the very emotion the rest of the film floats on. It's the involvement that makes the whole film work. Same goes for CR and SF. The only real difference I see with previous Bonds is the acting talent, which is on par with the nineteen sixties level. I'd say OHMSS i.e. takes far more time to show their love then CR does.
    I agree that OHMSS deals with the love angle better, at least from my perspective. It's more subtle (as one could perhaps expect from the time) but more compelling. That barn scene is one of the best in the series, and I can't say the same for the beach scene in CR.

    My point is just that these particular scenes and moments sprinkled throughout CR and SF, as well as the strong female characters in both films (Dench and Green are both co-leads in a way, at least imho) help both films to appeal to women. CR can very easily be appreciated from both Bond's and Vesper's perspective. Similarly SF from Bond's and from M's. I don't think the same applies to SP. Seydoux was poorly written, and she failed to resonate in the same manner. Therefore there is an element missing that was there in the more critically successful Craig entries. I know QoS is loved by some members here, but in the general public sphere it is mainly forgotten, so it too didn't resonate on that level - I'd go so far as to say it's the most male centric Craig film.

    I agree that the acting is critical, and both Green and Dench nail it.

    Well QoS (I'm one of it's fans) mainly deals with Bond sticking to his sense of duty, the story therefore didn't leave much room for any romantic interest. Allthough however little it may be, Fields did have the 'do you know how angry I am with myself' scene to give her personality more depth. In the five-second film QoS is, that's already quite a lot for a character who'se usefullness is very limited.
    I agree on the Seydoux part and blame the script and direction for it, SP was all over the place storytelling wise. It's a pity because she has the talent. I loved the 'l Americain' scene. It just didn't fit the film.
    But basically all I'm saying is that I don't believe the films were taylored more for a female audience, I believe it just so happens qualitatively and storywise they are far more convincing then many of their predecessors. Someone here claimed it was Brosnan who was molded to appeal more to the ladies, because of his looks. But Brosnan didn't have the acting talent nor the ladies to pull off an engaging relationship. Take Tery Hatchett as an example: she was supposed to give emotional depth to Bonds investigation of Carver. It didn't work because there was no chemistry between them and they couldn't sell it. Perhaps the last film where Bond had at least a bit of Chemistry and thus more depth to save the lady was in Octopussy. Now I'm no fan of Maud (mannequin) Adams, but ROger does sell his engagement to the audience (which shows how great an actor he really was!).
    Long story short, if you ask me it's got mainly to do with the quality of the people involved rather then an effort to engage a certain audience.
  • bondjamesbondjames You were expecting someone else?
    edited December 2018 Posts: 23,883
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Not sure how controversial this is, but I find that CR seems to be the Bond movie that breaks with the most success the gender divide. My wife likes no other Bond movie. None, however hard I tried. But she told me yesterday that CR is one of the best movies she ever saw. And one of her favourite. And I've seen a similar reactions from other women.

    Same with my wife. Whenever I put one of the old movies on she doesn't really want to know. But she loved CR and did get into the Craig era because of it. She didn't really like SP but I'm sure she'll still come to see Bond 25 with me the day it's released (having said that I think she knows really that she doesn't have any choice given how tragic I am when it comes to Bond and the amount of crap I've sat through with her xD ). Probably no coincidence that two of the few girls on here are fans solely because of Craig as well. I think he's definitely the Bond that appeals most to women.

    One of my former colleagues (nasty, stupid snake who used to clash with me on everything, professional or not), said that Craig was not an appealing Bond because of his looks. Not handsome enough, etc. I said that CR and SF proved him wrong and that Craig tends to be underestimated in the charm department by men. I only have personal experience to back it up of course and it is not exactly representative, but I think he has a good female fanbase.
    The two most critically successful and impactful Bond films he has made have narratives which are more specifically designed to appeal to women in my opinion. That was a matter of design. It's not easy to isolate how much of the appeal is down to Craig and how much is down to the stories themselves, but I suspect there's a little bit of both. CR & SF have emotional resonance.

    But was CR designed to appeal to women? I don't think Fleming had that in mind, considering the way Bond dives into his relationships in other novels. The guy really tries. The film is merely an update to the modern day situation and doesn't differ that much from Fleming's narrative. If anything, in the film he's more of a masochinist then in the book (courting the wife of a terrorism-organiser).
    And I'm not convinced SF had those intentions either. It's more P&W paying homage to Judi Dench's M.
    I certainly think both films are crafted in a manner which appeals to people who have an emotional sensitivity, and therefore more so to women. There's the narrative, and then there's the execution of that narrative. It's in the little moments, like the shower scene, the train scene, the ride to the hotel, the hotel receptionist episode, the stairwell fight and of course the final traumatic scene (changed from the book). This can be viewed readily from a woman's perspective. Of course, one needs to sell it, and Eva Green does. Similarly in SF, Dench does what's required to sell her guilt, inner strength and duty. These are all attributes that women (and particularly mothers or grandmothers) can relate to, just as men can relate to Bond's physical fortitude and sense of duty.

    For me that's just good storytelling, as Fleming did himself as well. The films did depart from that path, making Bond's involvement more superficial and making Bond films into charicatures. But at the same time such emotional involvement isn't unique to the action/spy genre. Take Mad Max, a film that starts with the very emotion the rest of the film floats on. It's the involvement that makes the whole film work. Same goes for CR and SF. The only real difference I see with previous Bonds is the acting talent, which is on par with the nineteen sixties level. I'd say OHMSS i.e. takes far more time to show their love then CR does.
    I agree that OHMSS deals with the love angle better, at least from my perspective. It's more subtle (as one could perhaps expect from the time) but more compelling. That barn scene is one of the best in the series, and I can't say the same for the beach scene in CR.

    My point is just that these particular scenes and moments sprinkled throughout CR and SF, as well as the strong female characters in both films (Dench and Green are both co-leads in a way, at least imho) help both films to appeal to women. CR can very easily be appreciated from both Bond's and Vesper's perspective. Similarly SF from Bond's and from M's. I don't think the same applies to SP. Seydoux was poorly written, and she failed to resonate in the same manner. Therefore there is an element missing that was there in the more critically successful Craig entries. I know QoS is loved by some members here, but in the general public sphere it is mainly forgotten, so it too didn't resonate on that level - I'd go so far as to say it's the most male centric Craig film.

    I agree that the acting is critical, and both Green and Dench nail it.

    Well QoS (I'm one of it's fans) mainly deals with Bond sticking to his sense of duty, the story therefore didn't leave much room for any romantic interest. Allthough however little it may be, Fields did have the 'do you know how angry I am with myself' scene to give her personality more depth. In the five-second film QoS is, that's already quite a lot for a character who'se usefullness is very limited.
    I agree on the Seydoux part and blame the script and direction for it, SP was all over the place storytelling wise. It's a pity because she has the talent. I loved the 'l Americain' scene. It just didn't fit the film.
    But basically all I'm saying is that I don't believe the films were taylored more for a female audience, I believe it just so happens qualitatively and storywise they are far more convincing then many of their predecessors. Someone here claimed it was Brosnan who was molded to appeal more to the ladies, because of his looks. But Brosnan didn't have the acting talent nor the ladies to pull off an engaging relationship. Take Tery Hatchett as an example: she was supposed to give emotional depth to Bonds investigation of Carver. It didn't work because there was no chemistry between them and they couldn't sell it. Perhaps the last film where Bond had at least a bit of Chemistry and thus more depth to save the lady was in Octopussy. Now I'm no fan of Maud (mannequin) Adams, but ROger does sell his engagement to the audience (which shows how great an actor he really was!).
    Long story short, if you ask me it's got mainly to do with the quality of the people involved rather then an effort to engage a certain audience.
    Yes, perhaps you're correct about it not necessariliy being tailored to a female audience. I can't obviously be sure about this.

    I just find that they are trying with each film to make the female characters more three dimensional, thereby making them potentially more appealing to women as relatable characters.

    Now they certainly gave women more capabilities and responsibilities during the Gilbert Moore and Glen eras in comparison to the past, but they were still written and acted in a manner which appealed to men. It's in the tone as well as the presentation. They were male fantasy capable women.

    In the Craig films they have subtly tried to allow the dramatic aspects to take centre stage in a more serious fashion - more authentically if you will. It's not so much about the romance as it is about the depth of the characterizations themselves and the premise. As an example, Dench's M didn't have a romance angle, but her character is a strong and relateable one for women. I don't think Camille has the same resonance with women because her perspective is still more male oriented (action girl and revenge seeking).
  • Posts: 15,114
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    bondjames wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Not sure how controversial this is, but I find that CR seems to be the Bond movie that breaks with the most success the gender divide. My wife likes no other Bond movie. None, however hard I tried. But she told me yesterday that CR is one of the best movies she ever saw. And one of her favourite. And I've seen a similar reactions from other women.

    Same with my wife. Whenever I put one of the old movies on she doesn't really want to know. But she loved CR and did get into the Craig era because of it. She didn't really like SP but I'm sure she'll still come to see Bond 25 with me the day it's released (having said that I think she knows really that she doesn't have any choice given how tragic I am when it comes to Bond and the amount of crap I've sat through with her xD ). Probably no coincidence that two of the few girls on here are fans solely because of Craig as well. I think he's definitely the Bond that appeals most to women.

    One of my former colleagues (nasty, stupid snake who used to clash with me on everything, professional or not), said that Craig was not an appealing Bond because of his looks. Not handsome enough, etc. I said that CR and SF proved him wrong and that Craig tends to be underestimated in the charm department by men. I only have personal experience to back it up of course and it is not exactly representative, but I think he has a good female fanbase.
    The two most critically successful and impactful Bond films he has made have narratives which are more specifically designed to appeal to women in my opinion. That was a matter of design. It's not easy to isolate how much of the appeal is down to Craig and how much is down to the stories themselves, but I suspect there's a little bit of both. CR & SF have emotional resonance.

    But was CR designed to appeal to women? I don't think Fleming had that in mind, considering the way Bond dives into his relationships in other novels. The guy really tries. The film is merely an update to the modern day situation and doesn't differ that much from Fleming's narrative. If anything, in the film he's more of a masochinist then in the book (courting the wife of a terrorism-organiser).
    And I'm not convinced SF had those intentions either. It's more P&W paying homage to Judi Dench's M.
    I certainly think both films are crafted in a manner which appeals to people who have an emotional sensitivity, and therefore more so to women. There's the narrative, and then there's the execution of that narrative. It's in the little moments, like the shower scene, the train scene, the ride to the hotel, the hotel receptionist episode, the stairwell fight and of course the final traumatic scene (changed from the book). This can be viewed readily from a woman's perspective. Of course, one needs to sell it, and Eva Green does. Similarly in SF, Dench does what's required to sell her guilt, inner strength and duty. These are all attributes that women (and particularly mothers or grandmothers) can relate to, just as men can relate to Bond's physical fortitude and sense of duty.

    For me that's just good storytelling, as Fleming did himself as well. The films did depart from that path, making Bond's involvement more superficial and making Bond films into charicatures. But at the same time such emotional involvement isn't unique to the action/spy genre. Take Mad Max, a film that starts with the very emotion the rest of the film floats on. It's the involvement that makes the whole film work. Same goes for CR and SF. The only real difference I see with previous Bonds is the acting talent, which is on par with the nineteen sixties level. I'd say OHMSS i.e. takes far more time to show their love then CR does.
    I agree that OHMSS deals with the love angle better, at least from my perspective. It's more subtle (as one could perhaps expect from the time) but more compelling. That barn scene is one of the best in the series, and I can't say the same for the beach scene in CR.

    My point is just that these particular scenes and moments sprinkled throughout CR and SF, as well as the strong female characters in both films (Dench and Green are both co-leads in a way, at least imho) help both films to appeal to women. CR can very easily be appreciated from both Bond's and Vesper's perspective. Similarly SF from Bond's and from M's. I don't think the same applies to SP. Seydoux was poorly written, and she failed to resonate in the same manner. Therefore there is an element missing that was there in the more critically successful Craig entries. I know QoS is loved by some members here, but in the general public sphere it is mainly forgotten, so it too didn't resonate on that level - I'd go so far as to say it's the most male centric Craig film.

    I agree that the acting is critical, and both Green and Dench nail it.

    Well QoS (I'm one of it's fans) mainly deals with Bond sticking to his sense of duty, the story therefore didn't leave much room for any romantic interest. Allthough however little it may be, Fields did have the 'do you know how angry I am with myself' scene to give her personality more depth. In the five-second film QoS is, that's already quite a lot for a character who'se usefullness is very limited.
    I agree on the Seydoux part and blame the script and direction for it, SP was all over the place storytelling wise. It's a pity because she has the talent. I loved the 'l Americain' scene. It just didn't fit the film.
    But basically all I'm saying is that I don't believe the films were taylored more for a female audience, I believe it just so happens qualitatively and storywise they are far more convincing then many of their predecessors. Someone here claimed it was Brosnan who was molded to appeal more to the ladies, because of his looks. But Brosnan didn't have the acting talent nor the ladies to pull off an engaging relationship. Take Tery Hatchett as an example: she was supposed to give emotional depth to Bonds investigation of Carver. It didn't work because there was no chemistry between them and they couldn't sell it. Perhaps the last film where Bond had at least a bit of Chemistry and thus more depth to save the lady was in Octopussy. Now I'm no fan of Maud (mannequin) Adams, but ROger does sell his engagement to the audience (which shows how great an actor he really was!).
    Long story short, if you ask me it's got mainly to do with the quality of the people involved rather then an effort to engage a certain audience.

    I suspect Paris Carver was written the way she was so Bond could bed her faster.
  • bondjames wrote: »
    I certainly think both films are crafted in a manner which appeals to people who have an emotional sensitivity, and therefore more so to women. There's the narrative, and then there's the execution of that narrative. It's in the little moments, like the shower scene, the train scene, the ride to the hotel, the hotel receptionist episode, the stairwell fight and of course the final traumatic scene (changed from the book). This can be viewed readily from a woman's perspective. Of course, one needs to sell it, and Eva Green does. Similarly in SF, Dench does what's required to sell her guilt, inner strength and duty. These are all attributes that women (and particularly mothers or grandmothers) can relate to, just as men can relate to Bond's physical fortitude and sense of duty.
    I agree with you, especially because Judi Dench's M has a whole theme about motherhood interwoven in the film, with the "son" that she raised right (Bond) and the "son" that got off the rails (Silva). And how her decisions to form them ultimately come back to take its toll on her. The movie makes this apparent by having Silva literally call her mommy.

    It's the humanity to the central characters that elevate this film, although I do understand if some find it melodramatic. Similarly Alec Trevelyan felt like human, tangible character in GoldenEye which made him memorable as a villain. I feel like they tried exactly this with Brofeld as well but it didn't work. This is why I'm curious to see where they're going with the villain in B25 -- will they go back to a more conventional, but still striking villain perhaps like Le Chiffre? I just hope nothing like Greene, he was forgettable.
  • edited December 2018 Posts: 17,753
    bondjames wrote: »
    I certainly think both films are crafted in a manner which appeals to people who have an emotional sensitivity, and therefore more so to women. There's the narrative, and then there's the execution of that narrative. It's in the little moments, like the shower scene, the train scene, the ride to the hotel, the hotel receptionist episode, the stairwell fight and of course the final traumatic scene (changed from the book). This can be viewed readily from a woman's perspective. Of course, one needs to sell it, and Eva Green does. Similarly in SF, Dench does what's required to sell her guilt, inner strength and duty. These are all attributes that women (and particularly mothers or grandmothers) can relate to, just as men can relate to Bond's physical fortitude and sense of duty.
    I agree with you, especially because Judi Dench's M has a whole theme about motherhood interwoven in the film, with the "son" that she raised right (Bond) and the "son" that got off the rails (Silva). And how her decisions to form them ultimately come back to take its toll on her. The movie makes this apparent by having Silva literally call her mommy.

    This only highlights my issues with the Mendes films. They both have a sort of "family angle", which I really don't care for at all. Oh, how I miss the straightforward mission films…
  • BMW_with_missilesBMW_with_missiles All the usual refinements.
    Posts: 3,000
    bondjames wrote: »
    I certainly think both films are crafted in a manner which appeals to people who have an emotional sensitivity, and therefore more so to women. There's the narrative, and then there's the execution of that narrative. It's in the little moments, like the shower scene, the train scene, the ride to the hotel, the hotel receptionist episode, the stairwell fight and of course the final traumatic scene (changed from the book). This can be viewed readily from a woman's perspective. Of course, one needs to sell it, and Eva Green does. Similarly in SF, Dench does what's required to sell her guilt, inner strength and duty. These are all attributes that women (and particularly mothers or grandmothers) can relate to, just as men can relate to Bond's physical fortitude and sense of duty.
    I agree with you, especially because Judi Dench's M has a whole theme about motherhood interwoven in the film, with the "son" that she raised right (Bond) and the "son" that got off the rails (Silva). And how her decisions to form them ultimately come back to take its toll on her. The movie makes this apparent by having Silva literally call her mommy.

    This only highlights my issues with the Mendes films. They both have a sort of "family angle", which I really don't care for at all. Oh, how I miss the straightforward mission films…

    I agree. Too often these attempts at “character depth” reek of cheap soap opera writing.
  • ClarkDevlinClarkDevlin Martinis, Girls and Guns
    Posts: 15,423
    bondjames wrote: »
    I certainly think both films are crafted in a manner which appeals to people who have an emotional sensitivity, and therefore more so to women. There's the narrative, and then there's the execution of that narrative. It's in the little moments, like the shower scene, the train scene, the ride to the hotel, the hotel receptionist episode, the stairwell fight and of course the final traumatic scene (changed from the book). This can be viewed readily from a woman's perspective. Of course, one needs to sell it, and Eva Green does. Similarly in SF, Dench does what's required to sell her guilt, inner strength and duty. These are all attributes that women (and particularly mothers or grandmothers) can relate to, just as men can relate to Bond's physical fortitude and sense of duty.
    I agree with you, especially because Judi Dench's M has a whole theme about motherhood interwoven in the film, with the "son" that she raised right (Bond) and the "son" that got off the rails (Silva). And how her decisions to form them ultimately come back to take its toll on her. The movie makes this apparent by having Silva literally call her mommy.

    This only highlights my issues with the Mendes films. They both have a sort of "family angle", which I really don't care for at all. Oh, how I miss the straightforward mission films…
    I agree. Too often these attempts at “character depth” reek of cheap soap opera writing.
    99% of the time, yes.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    bondjames wrote: »
    I certainly think both films are crafted in a manner which appeals to people who have an emotional sensitivity, and therefore more so to women. There's the narrative, and then there's the execution of that narrative. It's in the little moments, like the shower scene, the train scene, the ride to the hotel, the hotel receptionist episode, the stairwell fight and of course the final traumatic scene (changed from the book). This can be viewed readily from a woman's perspective. Of course, one needs to sell it, and Eva Green does. Similarly in SF, Dench does what's required to sell her guilt, inner strength and duty. These are all attributes that women (and particularly mothers or grandmothers) can relate to, just as men can relate to Bond's physical fortitude and sense of duty.
    I agree with you, especially because Judi Dench's M has a whole theme about motherhood interwoven in the film, with the "son" that she raised right (Bond) and the "son" that got off the rails (Silva). And how her decisions to form them ultimately come back to take its toll on her. The movie makes this apparent by having Silva literally call her mommy.

    This only highlights my issues with the Mendes films. They both have a sort of "family angle", which I really don't care for at all. Oh, how I miss the straightforward mission films…

    I agree. Too often these attempts at “character depth” reek of cheap soap opera writing.
    And that's where I blame P&W. They're really not very good writers when they have to come up with brand new stories.
  • Posts: 15,114
    I blame the shortcomings of the last two movies on Logan (my controversial opinion).
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