Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    I've always thought Hildebrand could be a decent character name.


    I’d just use the entire short story. The fish as a murder weapon is a great plot device.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    I always imagined if “Quantum of Solace” was adapted back in 2008 I could picture Benedict Cumberbatch in the role Phillip Masters, particularly because he’d nail the cold heartedness of when Masters decided to divorce Rhoda.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    I always imagined if “Quantum of Solace” was adapted back in 2008 I could picture Benedict Cumberbatch in the role Phillip Masters, particularly because he’d nail the cold heartedness of when Masters decided to divorce Rhoda.

    I can see that.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    edited July 2020 Posts: 7,113
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Have to disagree there. For me the opening shot of the Como Lake is way prettier than SF's opening shot.
    Yes, I agree that it's prettier. The problem is that after the introducing shot the entire picture (QOS) goes downhill due to the abysnal editing, while SF stays great and thrilling and one of the best Bond movies ever.

    I disagree. Yes, the editing is too much, but it can't hide the amazing cinematography or the far more intelligent story than most recent films. I love the fact that Greene isn't the top brass but just an operator, like Dr. No. It's actually the closest we got in the Craig era to 'just a normal mission'.

    Exactly. The editing might be a bit too much in certain scenes, like during the boat chase, but overall QOS is an aesthetically pleasing and intelligent film that, at least for me, is the highlight of 21st Century Bond.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Have to disagree there. For me the opening shot of the Como Lake is way prettier than SF's opening shot.
    Yes, I agree that it's prettier. The problem is that after the introducing shot the entire picture (QOS) goes downhill due to the abysnal editing, while SF stays great and thrilling and one of the best Bond movies ever.

    I disagree. Yes, the editing is too much, but it can't hide the amazing cinematography or the far more intelligent story than most recent films. I love the fact that Greene isn't the top brass but just an operator, like Dr. No. It's actually the closest we got in the Craig era to 'just a normal mission'.

    Exactly. The editing might be a bit too much in certain scenes, like during the boat chase, but overall QOS is an aesthetically pleasing and intelligent film that, at least for me, is the highlight of 21st Century Bond.

    Better than CR?
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,113
    suavejmf wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Have to disagree there. For me the opening shot of the Como Lake is way prettier than SF's opening shot.
    Yes, I agree that it's prettier. The problem is that after the introducing shot the entire picture (QOS) goes downhill due to the abysnal editing, while SF stays great and thrilling and one of the best Bond movies ever.

    I disagree. Yes, the editing is too much, but it can't hide the amazing cinematography or the far more intelligent story than most recent films. I love the fact that Greene isn't the top brass but just an operator, like Dr. No. It's actually the closest we got in the Craig era to 'just a normal mission'.

    Exactly. The editing might be a bit too much in certain scenes, like during the boat chase, but overall QOS is an aesthetically pleasing and intelligent film that, at least for me, is the highlight of 21st Century Bond.

    Better than CR?

    For me, yes. CR is a good one, but I prefer QOS. I find it a more thoughtful and aesthetically impressive effort. Also, I find Craig much more Bondian in his performance. It's his most stylish moment as the character, much more elegant than the other three.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Have to disagree there. For me the opening shot of the Como Lake is way prettier than SF's opening shot.
    Yes, I agree that it's prettier. The problem is that after the introducing shot the entire picture (QOS) goes downhill due to the abysnal editing, while SF stays great and thrilling and one of the best Bond movies ever.

    I disagree. Yes, the editing is too much, but it can't hide the amazing cinematography or the far more intelligent story than most recent films. I love the fact that Greene isn't the top brass but just an operator, like Dr. No. It's actually the closest we got in the Craig era to 'just a normal mission'.

    Exactly. The editing might be a bit too much in certain scenes, like during the boat chase, but overall QOS is an aesthetically pleasing and intelligent film that, at least for me, is the highlight of 21st Century Bond.

    Better than CR?

    For me, yes. CR is a good one, but I prefer QOS. I find it a more thoughtful and aesthetically impressive effort. Also, I find Craig much more Bondian in his performance. It's his most stylish moment as the character, much more elegant than the other three.

    Completely agree.
  • Posts: 15,114
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    suavejmf wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    j_w_pepper wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Have to disagree there. For me the opening shot of the Como Lake is way prettier than SF's opening shot.
    Yes, I agree that it's prettier. The problem is that after the introducing shot the entire picture (QOS) goes downhill due to the abysnal editing, while SF stays great and thrilling and one of the best Bond movies ever.

    I disagree. Yes, the editing is too much, but it can't hide the amazing cinematography or the far more intelligent story than most recent films. I love the fact that Greene isn't the top brass but just an operator, like Dr. No. It's actually the closest we got in the Craig era to 'just a normal mission'.

    Exactly. The editing might be a bit too much in certain scenes, like during the boat chase, but overall QOS is an aesthetically pleasing and intelligent film that, at least for me, is the highlight of 21st Century Bond.

    Better than CR?

    For me, yes. CR is a good one, but I prefer QOS. I find it a more thoughtful and aesthetically impressive effort. Also, I find Craig much more Bondian in his performance. It's his most stylish moment as the character, much more elegant than the other three.

    I quite like QOS, but yours is a very controversial statement.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited July 2020 Posts: 8,182
    I don't know if I'd call QOS "intelligent". This a movie that ended up being so severely underwritten because Forster threw away what was already written in order to start from scratch just so he could implement his "four elements" fixation, and then the strike happened.
  • ProfJoeButcherProfJoeButcher Bless your heart
    Posts: 1,711
    I don't know if I'd call QOS "intelligent". This a movie that ended up being so severely underwritten because Forster threw away what was already written in order to start from scratch just so he could implement his "four elements" fixation, and then the strike happened.

    Whoa. Where does this information come from? He threw away a complete script, and then when the strike happened he didn't return to it, and wasn't forced to return to it by the producers, all because of the element motif? That sounds farfetched.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    It wasn't a complete script, just a draft that P&W finished and then Paul Haggis was brought in to polish it like he did with CR. Then Marc Forster was brought in and wanted it to be rewritten.

    The more detailed stuff from what I remember was from a radio interview P&W did a decade ago, but this NYT article hints at it.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/movies/09raff.html

    Funniest part of the article is this bit:
    The next day, he said, he would be zipping down to Panama to look at possible locations for “Bond 22.” (A couple of weeks later, by telephone from London, he said that the trip eventually included a jaunt to Chile and a flyover of Brazil.) And he was hoping to get a new draft of the screenplay, from Paul Haggis, in a few days, before the Writers’ Guild was due to go on strike; at that time shooting was scheduled to begin in mid-December, a scant six weeks from the day we talked. The script did arrive, two hours before the writers walked out, and Mr. Forster was “very pleased.” he said. “It’s a script I can shoot.”

    Of course that was all hogwash and everyone would later admit it was only a barebones script that they had to resort writing dialogue on the set. 8-|
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    It wasn't a complete script, just a draft that P&W finished and then Paul Haggis was brought in to polish it like he did with CR. Then Marc Forster was brought in and wanted it to be rewritten.

    The more detailed stuff from what I remember was from a radio interview P&W did a decade ago, but this NYT article hints at it.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/09/movies/09raff.html

    Funniest part of the article is this bit:
    The next day, he said, he would be zipping down to Panama to look at possible locations for “Bond 22.” (A couple of weeks later, by telephone from London, he said that the trip eventually included a jaunt to Chile and a flyover of Brazil.) And he was hoping to get a new draft of the screenplay, from Paul Haggis, in a few days, before the Writers’ Guild was due to go on strike; at that time shooting was scheduled to begin in mid-December, a scant six weeks from the day we talked. The script did arrive, two hours before the writers walked out, and Mr. Forster was “very pleased.” he said. “It’s a script I can shoot.”

    Of course that was all hogwash and everyone would later admit it was only a barebones script that they had to resort writing dialogue on the set. 8-|

    Well, the result is no P&W dialogue and, considering all their other efforts, that's a good thing. No 'little finger' in this one. Yes, the script has its' letdowns, but so do all the other films. And yes, the story is more intelligent than most other films. It leaves a bit for the audience to figuere out themselves. I like that. Except for the anchor, that was a mistake.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    What exactly does it leave for audiences to “figure out”?
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    A new controversial opinion...what are people’s thoughts?

    I don’t accept Barry Nelson’s version of Bond as being a Bond at all. Whilst the TV play was a ‘version’ of Fleming’s book, they changed the central character completely.

    An American spy cannot be Fleming’s James Bond. I’ve seen countless articles saying Nelson was the first actor to be Bond, which I think is nonsense. The British heritage is key to the characters personality and characteristics.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    edited July 2020 Posts: 8,250
    What exactly does it leave for audiences to “figure out”?

    That the oil plot is a distraction, i.e. Yes, Bond finds it out, but the audience has the time to do it with him. What I menat to say is that not everything is spelled out.
    suavejmf wrote: »
    A new controversial opinion...what are people’s thoughts?

    I don’t accept Barry Nelson’s version of Bond as being a Bond at all. Whilst the TV play was a ‘version’ of Fleming’s book, they changed the central character completely.

    An American spy cannot be Fleming’s James Bond. I’ve seen countless articles saying Nelson was the first actor to be Bond, which I think is nonsense. The British heritage is key to the characters personality and characteristics.

    I fully agree. He's not even James, but 'Jimmy'. Nice gimmick, btw, for Wade to make that connection in GE.
  • Posts: 15,114
    suavejmf wrote: »
    A new controversial opinion...what are people’s thoughts?

    I don’t accept Barry Nelson’s version of Bond as being a Bond at all. Whilst the TV play was a ‘version’ of Fleming’s book, they changed the central character completely.

    An American spy cannot be Fleming’s James Bond. I’ve seen countless articles saying Nelson was the first actor to be Bond, which I think is nonsense. The British heritage is key to the characters personality and characteristics.

    I agree. Barry Nelson is Bond in name only, just like it is Casino Royale in name only.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    Posts: 7,546
    suavejmf wrote: »
    A new controversial opinion...what are people’s thoughts?

    I don’t accept Barry Nelson’s version of Bond as being a Bond at all. Whilst the TV play was a ‘version’ of Fleming’s book, they changed the central character completely.

    An American spy cannot be Fleming’s James Bond. I’ve seen countless articles saying Nelson was the first actor to be Bond, which I think is nonsense. The British heritage is key to the characters personality and characteristics.

    Agreed.
  • Posts: 16,154
    Controversial opinion:

    I find Barry Nelson to be a GREAT James Bond.
  • FatherValentineFatherValentine England
    Posts: 737
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Controversial opinion:

    I find Barry Nelson to be a GREAT James Bond.

    I like the TV play very much. He's not a great James Bond, though. But he is playing a version of the character, even if people don't like it.
  • Posts: 1,917
    I don't accept Barry Nelson either. CR '54 is a curiosity at best. Bond as hard-boiled private eye more than secret agent.

    Anybody know what Fleming's reaction to it was?
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    What exactly does it leave for audiences to “figure out”?

    That the oil plot is a distraction, i.e. Yes, Bond finds it out, but the audience has the time to do it with him. What I menat to say is that not everything is spelled out.

    Not really understanding that supposition. I mean, this is a film where Judi Dench helps spell out the themes of the film within the first minute of her appearance, and then we later get things like a whole montage of locals desperately trying to collect every last drop of water from a pipe. The editing may be confusing as hell, but what the film is about is pretty on the nose.
  • NickTwentyTwoNickTwentyTwo Vancouver, BC, Canada
    edited July 2020 Posts: 7,546
    Up until Bond and Camille fall into the sinkhole in the earth, the film is strongly hinting that the plot revolves around oil.

    Then Bond and Camille discover (along with us) that in reality, Greene wants to control the water, not the oil. Cut to the locals desperately trying to collect water from the pipe (reinforcing what we just learned) and the whole bit with M saying to Bond "might want to tell her about your theory of there being no oil" over Strawberry's dead body.

    The themes about revenge and trust, as well as the themes of earth's finite resources, are very overt, yes.

    The trickery is the fakeout that the finite resource important to the plot is water, not oil.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    That's standard subversion, which is part of the Bond formula stretching back to the novels.
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,250
    That's standard subversion, which is part of the Bond formula stretching back to the novels.

    Perhaps, but here it's at the same time the instrument to topple the current government and to extort the new one. It isn't, after all, about the water or the oil, but about powerplay by an organisation set to control governments.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    Ultimately it was about profit, which is the SOP of all the fictional villains in these Bond films. "How much can we EXPLOIT???" The governments can do whatever they like, so long as someone gets a cut!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    For me this is where QoS fails. Why Bolivia? The film is missing its moment of stakes, that "We're doing this in Bolivia first and then we are going to do this throughout the world."

    Not to mention that the plot basically comes down to a lease signing in a hotel.
  • ThunderfingerThunderfinger Das Boot Hill
    Posts: 45,489
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I don't accept Barry Nelson either. CR '54 is a curiosity at best. Bond as hard-boiled private eye more than secret agent.

    Anybody know what Fleming's reaction to it was?

    I doubt he ever got to see it.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,619
    BT3366 wrote: »
    I don't accept Barry Nelson either. CR '54 is a curiosity at best. Bond as hard-boiled private eye more than secret agent.

    Anybody know what Fleming's reaction to it was?

    I doubt he ever got to see it.

    He turned down selling the rights to LALD because they made a cheap offer. LALD won’t have worked with that limited of a budget. MR on the other hand, might of.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,113
    AVTAK has a great first half. The ski chase, the title song, Paris, the château. I think that's all excellent stuff. After that I still like the sea pump station infiltration and Pola Ivanova. I even don't mind the 'fight' in Stacey's house and the quiche moment. The abandoned mine and the Golden Gate finale are fine too.

    But boy, the fire at city hall and the ensuing chase hurt the film. I'm convinced AVTAK could be a favourite if they had done things differently for those two scenes. Stacey gets a lot of slack, but her worst moments are during these scenes. There is also zero tension during either scene. Glen has delivered some of the series' best action and suspense scenes, but these two are some of the worst. That ridiculous buffoon of a sheriff doesn't help things either. Such a pity, really.
  • suavejmfsuavejmf Harrogate, North Yorkshire, England
    Posts: 5,131
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Controversial opinion:

    I find Barry Nelson to be a GREAT James Bond.

    Very controversial. What do you like about his portrayal?

    He basically changed the character completely: Nelson played James Bond as an American agent whom some in the program call "Jimmy". In 2004, Nelson said, "At that time, no one had ever heard of James Bond...I was scratching my head wondering how to play it. I hadn't read the book or anything like that because it wasn't well-known”.

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