Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 2,162
    For me, DAF depends on how you view it.

    As a sequel to OHMSS
    Its tragic. And not in a good way.

    As it’s own stand alone film
    Its campy fun with some fun dialogue, a great Barry score and some fun performances - especially Whyte. Charles Grey as Blofeld is underrated.
  • DarthDimiDarthDimi Behind you!Moderator
    Posts: 24,173
    Mallory wrote: »
    For me, DAF depends on how you view it.

    As a sequel to OHMSS
    Its tragic. And not in a good way.

    As it’s own stand alone film
    Its campy fun with some fun dialogue, a great Barry score and some fun performances - especially Whyte. Charles Grey as Blofeld is underrated.

    True. True. True.

    Couldn't agree more.

    DAF works better for me when I watch the film at a random time. As the one to follow OHMSS, it's a nightmare. My fiance had a caustic reaction to this film when I marathoned the Bonds with her--and she hadn't seen any of them besides two Brosnans and Skyfall. The jump from YOLT to OHMSS was like whiplash to her but she responded well to the film. And I guess that, despite my warnings, she had half expected OHMSS to set a trend for several more films just like that. So immediately after the PTS of DAF, what with the "Making mud pies, 007?" and Blofeld's "my give up" Jar Jar Binks moment, she looked at me, visibly wondering if this was "that spoof film" I had been talking about. No honey, that was Casino Royale '67; this film is to be taken seriously. :p

    And yet, it isn't. DAF is a bundle of joy, silliness as an art. In fact, if it weren't for Jane Seymour being the loveliest Bond girl EVER, I'd rank it above LALD with ease.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    edited August 2020 Posts: 984
    Maybe controversial, maybe not. I find Kerim to be one of the least interesting characters in FRWL. A lot of Bond fans name him as their favourite sidekick. I much prefer Columbo in FYEO..
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    Posts: 814
    I love Kerim. He’s colorful.

    I barely remember Columbo.

    Says it all, really. IMO, of course. (I guess a part of the reason is that I’ve seen FRWL many,many times over the years, while I’ve seen FYEO - which is my favorite Moore film, actually - perhaps only four or five times. Whaddya want, those Connery films, as well as he himself in the role, was very instrumental in me becoming a huge Bond fan about 25 years ago...)
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,619
    As for I’ve said before, Sheriff J.W. Pepper is the Jar Jar Binks of the series. Makes Charles Gray’s Blofeld look like Alec Trevelyan. Guy Hamilton is the George Lucas of Bond directors: one hit, three mixed bags.
  • There's more than a few pretty cool sequences in NEVER SAY NEVER AGAIN, and Barbara Carrera was a pretty damn cool Bond villain. The scene where she beats the crap out of Jack Pitacchi makes me smile every time, and that opening is one of the best in the series.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited August 2020 Posts: 6,288
    If we had a proper follow-up to OHMSS with Lazenby...say, the novel YOLT combined with TMWTGG, would we have been happy to have had a strong 7-film run if that was the end of the series?
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    Posts: 814
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Guy Hamilton is the George Lucas of Bond directors: one hit, three mixed bags.

    Totally agree. I always found him really overrated among Bond directors. If he had only directed GF, then sure, I could see the immense praise. He’d be almost as good as Peter Hunt, were he a one-timer. But no, as he went on, he kept pushing Bond more and more into the ridiculous. Only Gilbert and Tamahori went more silly.
    I vastly prefer Terrence Young, not to mention Martin Campbell, John Glen, as well as the previously mentioned Hunt.
  • Posts: 1,917
    Folks, can we please just put aside the DAF as OHMSS revenge-driven follow-up? Somebody on another thread brought this up in slagging DAF recently. It didn't happen, not sure if was ever really a solid plan, so just take it for what it is, like it or not.

    Also, yeah, Hamilton is overrated. I l know he gets tons of credit for pushing Bond films to a more popular level with GF, not taking that away from him, but if I'd like to see a scenario that didn't come true it would be Terence Young's version of GF. I much prefer his harder-edged style.
  • MurdockMurdock The minus world
    Posts: 16,351
    DAF works much better when you see it as a follow up to YOLT then have OHMSS be the follow up to DAF.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Guy Hamilton is the George Lucas of Bond directors: one hit, three mixed bags.

    Totally agree. I always found him really overrated among Bond directors. If he had only directed GF, then sure, I could see the immense praise. He’d be almost as good as Peter Hunt, were he a one-timer. But no, as he went on, he kept pushing Bond more and more into the ridiculous. Only Gilbert and Tamahori went more silly.
    I vastly prefer Terrence Young, not to mention Martin Campbell, John Glen, as well as the previously mentioned Hunt.

    My favourite Guy Hamilton film isn't even a Bond film: Evil Under the Sun. Though I'd agree GF is very good and I've always had a soft spot for TMWTGG.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    I can’t imagine a Terence Young GF being an improvement. Part of the charm of GF is that Hamilton takes the comic booky aspects of the novel and accentuates it. I’m not sure a harder edged GF would have boded well. Part of why TB doesn’t work so well for me is because it felt like Young was attempting to capture that feel that GF had but he didn’t have the same sensibilities of Hamilton to make it sing, so it felt awkward. TB might have played better to his strengths if he went back to FRWL mold of sticking closer to the book, but I guess EON just wanted another GF hit.
  • Posts: 17,753
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Guy Hamilton is the George Lucas of Bond directors: one hit, three mixed bags.

    Totally agree. I always found him really overrated among Bond directors. If he had only directed GF, then sure, I could see the immense praise. He’d be almost as good as Peter Hunt, were he a one-timer. But no, as he went on, he kept pushing Bond more and more into the ridiculous. Only Gilbert and Tamahori went more silly.
    I vastly prefer Terrence Young, not to mention Martin Campbell, John Glen, as well as the previously mentioned Hunt.

    My favourite Guy Hamilton film isn't even a Bond film: Evil Under the Sun. Though I'd agree GF is very good and I've always had a soft spot for TMWTGG.

    Funeral in Berlin for me. I think it's as good as, if not better, than GF.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    edited August 2020 Posts: 6,288
    I can’t imagine a Terence Young GF being an improvement. Part of the charm of GF is that Hamilton takes the comic booky aspects of the novel and accentuates it. I’m not sure a harder edged GF would have boded well. Part of why TB doesn’t work so well for me is because it felt like Young was attempting to capture that feel that GF had but he didn’t have the same sensibilities of Hamilton to make it sing, so it felt awkward. TB might have played better to his strengths if he went back to FRWL mold of sticking closer to the book, but I guess EON just wanted another GF hit.

    This is an insightful post.

    Once GF hit (and I think GF is one of *the* turning points of the '60s), I'm not sure there was any going back to the DN/FRWL template, and I think you can feel that tension in TB (as if Young had watched his baby grow into an awkward teenager).

    OHMSS tried to go back to it and failed (commercially), then we had a long, long wait until CR.
  • Posts: 1,394
    Murdock wrote: »
    DAF works much better when you see it as a follow up to YOLT then have OHMSS be the follow up to DAF.

    True.I double billed YOLT along with DAF once and it worked like gangbusters.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    Speaking of GF, the one thing that always bothered me a bit about an otherwise great entry is its location work. DN offered us Jamaica, FRWL the Balkans, TB the Bahamas and YOLT went to Japan. But not only did those stories go there, you felt like you were actually in those places with Bond.

    GF brings us Miami hotel background projection in all its fake glory and rather dull Kentucky ranches or diners. You'd think Switzerland would make up for that but even that beautiful country doesn't feel as magic as it felt later on in OHMSS. GF does a lot right, but atmosphere isn't its strongest point.
  • Posts: 15,114
    jobo wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Controversial opinion:

    I actually enjoy DAF more than the '06 CR. At least on my last viewing of CR, which I couldn't quite get through all the way.
    I tend to pop in DAF extremely often.

    DAF is in my top ten, CR is not – and this is the main reason why. I find DAF extremely entertaining and I tend to watch it fairly often in comparison to many of the films.

    I will pretend I did not see that... =;

    What's not to like about that film? :D I have no issues holding my hands up as a DAF fan!

    daftweed1-whome.gif


    Lets not turn this into another DAF bashing fest... ;))

    However I´ll give the short answer in line with an earlier post, that basically the only thing I don´t dislike about the film is the soundtrack.

    In terms of the comparison raised, CR is a guaranteed top three for me, and DAF a guaranteed bottom three.

    For me it took DAD to beat DAF in terms of awfulness. But I'll give it something : it was what the franchise needed at the time. Not OHMSS quality, not a new Bond, but exactly what we got. Oh and I told that controversial opinion before, but Sean Connery in DAF is the worst looking Bond.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Controversial opinion:

    I actually enjoy DAF more than the '06 CR. At least on my last viewing of CR, which I couldn't quite get through all the way.
    I tend to pop in DAF extremely often.

    DAF is in my top ten, CR is not – and this is the main reason why. I find DAF extremely entertaining and I tend to watch it fairly often in comparison to many of the films.

    I will pretend I did not see that... =;

    What's not to like about that film? :D I have no issues holding my hands up as a DAF fan!

    daftweed1-whome.gif


    Lets not turn this into another DAF bashing fest... ;))

    However I´ll give the short answer in line with an earlier post, that basically the only thing I don´t dislike about the film is the soundtrack.

    In terms of the comparison raised, CR is a guaranteed top three for me, and DAF a guaranteed bottom three.

    For me it took DAD to beat DAF in terms of awfulness. But I'll give it something : it was what the franchise needed at the time. Not OHMSS quality, not a new Bond, but exactly what we got. Oh and I told that controversial opinion before, but Sean Connery in DAF is the worst looking Bond.


    Was it really what the franchise needed at the time though? It didn´t totaly flop, but it was not a particular succes either, and it´s not like it created a new boom for the franchise in any way. The Connery fanatics got to see him one last time in the role. Apart from that, I think you could easily erase the film from history without it making a big difference for the franchise.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    I love Kerim. He’s colorful.

    I barely remember Columbo.

    Says it all, really. IMO, of course. (I guess a part of the reason is that I’ve seen FRWL many,many times over the years, while I’ve seen FYEO - which is my favorite Moore film, actually - perhaps only four or five times. Whaddya want, those Connery films, as well as he himself in the role, was very instrumental in me becoming a huge Bond fan about 25 years ago...)

    Oh, don't get me wrong, I love FRWL. Just never really thought Kerim was that interesting.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Guy Hamilton is the George Lucas of Bond directors: one hit, three mixed bags.

    Totally agree. I always found him really overrated among Bond directors. If he had only directed GF, then sure, I could see the immense praise. He’d be almost as good as Peter Hunt, were he a one-timer. But no, as he went on, he kept pushing Bond more and more into the ridiculous. Only Gilbert and Tamahori went more silly.
    I vastly prefer Terrence Young, not to mention Martin Campbell, John Glen, as well as the previously mentioned Hunt.

    Agreed on Hamilton. His films don't really show any directoral flair. Even Goldfinger is fairly pedestrian looking. Terence Young clearly had a great eye for a shot and Lewis Gilbert had the David Lean-esque wide shooting in TSWLM and YOLT. Even Jon Glen at least showed some skill in the action scenes of his films.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    I can’t imagine a Terence Young GF being an improvement. Part of the charm of GF is that Hamilton takes the comic booky aspects of the novel and accentuates it. I’m not sure a harder edged GF would have boded well. Part of why TB doesn’t work so well for me is because it felt like Young was attempting to capture that feel that GF had but he didn’t have the same sensibilities of Hamilton to make it sing, so it felt awkward. TB might have played better to his strengths if he went back to FRWL mold of sticking closer to the book, but I guess EON just wanted another GF hit.

    Not sure that particular aspect was Terence's fault. He directed what was on the page. And the setting obviously helps, but TB was far more visually sumptuous than GF.
  • Posts: 15,114
    jobo wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Controversial opinion:

    I actually enjoy DAF more than the '06 CR. At least on my last viewing of CR, which I couldn't quite get through all the way.
    I tend to pop in DAF extremely often.

    DAF is in my top ten, CR is not – and this is the main reason why. I find DAF extremely entertaining and I tend to watch it fairly often in comparison to many of the films.

    I will pretend I did not see that... =;

    What's not to like about that film? :D I have no issues holding my hands up as a DAF fan!

    daftweed1-whome.gif


    Lets not turn this into another DAF bashing fest... ;))

    However I´ll give the short answer in line with an earlier post, that basically the only thing I don´t dislike about the film is the soundtrack.

    In terms of the comparison raised, CR is a guaranteed top three for me, and DAF a guaranteed bottom three.

    For me it took DAD to beat DAF in terms of awfulness. But I'll give it something : it was what the franchise needed at the time. Not OHMSS quality, not a new Bond, but exactly what we got. Oh and I told that controversial opinion before, but Sean Connery in DAF is the worst looking Bond.


    Was it really what the franchise needed at the time though? It didn´t totaly flop, but it was not a particular succes either, and it´s not like it created a new boom for the franchise in any way. The Connery fanatics got to see him one last time in the role. Apart from that, I think you could easily erase the film from history without it making a big difference for the franchise.

    It had the franchise going on for a little longer. But sometimes I wonder if audiences would have accepted a straight revenge story as long as Connery was playing Bond. Whatever approach they'd taken, they needed him.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    Murdock wrote: »
    DAF works much better when you see it as a follow up to YOLT then have OHMSS be the follow up to DAF.

    True.I double billed YOLT along with DAF once and it worked like gangbusters.

    I think a good way to go through the series is to watch DN to YOLT in order, skip OHMSS, then watch DAF to TMWTGG. This way you see all the official Connery films in sequence followed by the two Moore Mankiewicz/Hamilton films that are closest to DAF in mood and atmosphere. Then watch OHMSS followed by FYEO, then TSWLM-MR, then OP through LTK and you get the John Glen era(both as editor/2nd unit director and as director) as well as the direct references to Mrs. Bond after her death(FYEO, TSWLM, LTK).

    Then watch the Brosnan/Craig era GE-SP in order.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I can’t imagine a Terence Young GF being an improvement. Part of the charm of GF is that Hamilton takes the comic booky aspects of the novel and accentuates it. I’m not sure a harder edged GF would have boded well. Part of why TB doesn’t work so well for me is because it felt like Young was attempting to capture that feel that GF had but he didn’t have the same sensibilities of Hamilton to make it sing, so it felt awkward. TB might have played better to his strengths if he went back to FRWL mold of sticking closer to the book, but I guess EON just wanted another GF hit.

    Not sure that particular aspect was Terence's fault. He directed what was on the page. And the setting obviously helps, but TB was far more visually sumptuous than GF.

    I don’t think Young is at fault, other than walking off the film after filming finished. EON wanted a GF type film with TB so that’s what Young delivered to the best of his ability.
    Roadphill wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Guy Hamilton is the George Lucas of Bond directors: one hit, three mixed bags.

    Totally agree. I always found him really overrated among Bond directors. If he had only directed GF, then sure, I could see the immense praise. He’d be almost as good as Peter Hunt, were he a one-timer. But no, as he went on, he kept pushing Bond more and more into the ridiculous. Only Gilbert and Tamahori went more silly.
    I vastly prefer Terrence Young, not to mention Martin Campbell, John Glen, as well as the previously mentioned Hunt.

    Agreed on Hamilton. His films don't really show any directoral flair. Even Goldfinger is fairly pedestrian looking. Terence Young clearly had a great eye for a shot and Lewis Gilbert had the David Lean-esque wide shooting in TSWLM and YOLT. Even Jon Glen at least showed some skill in the action scenes of his films.

    I think you underestimate his work in GF. His later work was no doubt lazy, but he was a very good visual director with GF, like how he gave the dinner scene visual cues to underline the exposition of gold smuggling.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I can’t imagine a Terence Young GF being an improvement. Part of the charm of GF is that Hamilton takes the comic booky aspects of the novel and accentuates it. I’m not sure a harder edged GF would have boded well. Part of why TB doesn’t work so well for me is because it felt like Young was attempting to capture that feel that GF had but he didn’t have the same sensibilities of Hamilton to make it sing, so it felt awkward. TB might have played better to his strengths if he went back to FRWL mold of sticking closer to the book, but I guess EON just wanted another GF hit.

    Not sure that particular aspect was Terence's fault. He directed what was on the page. And the setting obviously helps, but TB was far more visually sumptuous than GF.

    I don’t think Young is at fault, other than walking off the film after filming finished. EON wanted a GF type film with TB so that’s what Young delivered to the best of his ability.
    Roadphill wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Guy Hamilton is the George Lucas of Bond directors: one hit, three mixed bags.

    Totally agree. I always found him really overrated among Bond directors. If he had only directed GF, then sure, I could see the immense praise. He’d be almost as good as Peter Hunt, were he a one-timer. But no, as he went on, he kept pushing Bond more and more into the ridiculous. Only Gilbert and Tamahori went more silly.
    I vastly prefer Terrence Young, not to mention Martin Campbell, John Glen, as well as the previously mentioned Hunt.

    Agreed on Hamilton. His films don't really show any directoral flair. Even Goldfinger is fairly pedestrian looking. Terence Young clearly had a great eye for a shot and Lewis Gilbert had the David Lean-esque wide shooting in TSWLM and YOLT. Even Jon Glen at least showed some skill in the action scenes of his films.

    I think you underestimate his work in GF. His later work was no doubt lazy, but he was a very good visual director with GF, like how he gave the dinner scene visual cues to underline the exposition of gold smuggling.

    I'm not sure, buddy. Whilst GF does have a lot of strengths, I think there's nothing particularly strong visually, about it.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    If anyone’s directing is pedestrian, then look no further than John Glen.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    If anyone’s directing is pedestrian, then look no further than John Glen.

    True, but he had an excellent eye for the action scenes, if nothing else.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I can’t imagine a Terence Young GF being an improvement. Part of the charm of GF is that Hamilton takes the comic booky aspects of the novel and accentuates it. I’m not sure a harder edged GF would have boded well. Part of why TB doesn’t work so well for me is because it felt like Young was attempting to capture that feel that GF had but he didn’t have the same sensibilities of Hamilton to make it sing, so it felt awkward. TB might have played better to his strengths if he went back to FRWL mold of sticking closer to the book, but I guess EON just wanted another GF hit.

    Not sure that particular aspect was Terence's fault. He directed what was on the page. And the setting obviously helps, but TB was far more visually sumptuous than GF.

    I don’t think Young is at fault, other than walking off the film after filming finished. EON wanted a GF type film with TB so that’s what Young delivered to the best of his ability.
    Roadphill wrote: »
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    Guy Hamilton is the George Lucas of Bond directors: one hit, three mixed bags.

    Totally agree. I always found him really overrated among Bond directors. If he had only directed GF, then sure, I could see the immense praise. He’d be almost as good as Peter Hunt, were he a one-timer. But no, as he went on, he kept pushing Bond more and more into the ridiculous. Only Gilbert and Tamahori went more silly.
    I vastly prefer Terrence Young, not to mention Martin Campbell, John Glen, as well as the previously mentioned Hunt.

    Agreed on Hamilton. His films don't really show any directoral flair. Even Goldfinger is fairly pedestrian looking. Terence Young clearly had a great eye for a shot and Lewis Gilbert had the David Lean-esque wide shooting in TSWLM and YOLT. Even Jon Glen at least showed some skill in the action scenes of his films.

    I think you underestimate his work in GF. His later work was no doubt lazy, but he was a very good visual director with GF, like how he gave the dinner scene visual cues to underline the exposition of gold smuggling.

    And also look at the pacing of GF, and that he had a smaller budget than most, if not all, of the films that followed. In GF Hamilton amazingly zips along, creating iconic moment to iconic moment along the way--sea bird on head to "Positively shocking" to gin rummy game to Golden Girl to golf game to Aston chase to Oddjob/Tilly to laser scene, and on and on and on.

    I think it's fair game to slag Hamilton for his latter films...but not GF.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    Roadphill wrote: »
    If anyone’s directing is pedestrian, then look no further than John Glen.

    True, but he had an excellent eye for the action scenes, if nothing else.

    Arthur Wooster deserves that credit.
  • MajorDSmytheMajorDSmythe "I tolerate this century, but I don't enjoy it."Moderator
    edited August 2020 Posts: 13,978
    I don’t see what is wrong with a meat and potatoes director. In fact, I wish more like Glen had helmed a Bond film. Especially if thy can create something as good as TLD.
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