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Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,619
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    Agent_47 wrote: »
    Controversial Opinion:

    Caroline Bliss is a pretty terrible Moneypenny. Her scenes always make me want to skip chapter. That Q lab scene where she asks if Bond wants to come over and listen to her Barry Manilow collection, along with her high school crush attitude towards Bond, ugh.

    Doesn't help we have her sniffling away crying over 007 at her desk in License To Kill because she has yet to hear from him. Sorry Dalton era fans. I'll take Lois Maxwell and Samantha Bond anyday. That more mature tit for tat relationship just suits the pair much better.

    Dalton’s my favourite Bond, but even I’d struggle to disagree. I think she’s fine, but Maxwell, Bond and Harris blow her out of the water.

    My controversial opinion: I don’t think Harris is great either. She’s a brilliant actress, but I just don’t buy her chemistry with Craig. It feels a bit stilted and forced to me (the annoying “look they’re flirting” music Newman used didn’t help).

    In fact I’d say overall, the Brosnan era did the MI6 regulars better than Craig. Fiennes is fine, but Dench is better. I also prefer Brosnan era Dench to Craig era Dench, not a fan of the surrogate mum angle they took with the latter. Kitchen’s Tanner is better than Kinnear’s Tanner, and Robinson is better than both. Bond is great as Moneypenny. To be honest, I’d say her and Brosnan are almost on par with Connery and Maxwell when it comes to that dynamic. And while Wishaw is brilliant, better than Cleese, and I hope he stays on for decades, you really can’t beat Desmond as Q. And Brosnan played his scenes with him to perfection. You could tell he was relishing that opportunity and really living his childhood dream (and then the touching end to their final one in TWINE; Brosnan overacted a fair bit but he really could nail the subtle stuff when he tried imo).

    +1 I liked that M respected him to do his job in TND. No arguing back and forth. She gave him the mission and moved on. Even as she’s battling her own demons. If P & W wrote the screenplay, their bantering would go on for at least 5 minutes. Enough with M and Bond bantering folks! Give him the mission, and if M has a subplot,(this is my controversial opinion), use TND as an example.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,182
    I can’t judge Bliss too harshly because she didn’t grow into the role the way the other actresses have.
  • FoxRoxFoxRox
    Posts: 12,466
    Samantha Bond is actually my least favorite EON Moneypenny pretty easily. My order would go:

    1. Lois Maxwell
    2. Naomie Harris
    3. Caroline Bliss
    4. Samantha Bond
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    thelivingroyale wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Controversial opinion:

    I think Skyfall's third act and finale is excellent. One of the best in the series in fact!

    I agree. I think the film loses its way a bit when we go back to London, but picks up again and nails it with the Scotland stuff. My favourite Craig era finale by far.

    I agree with @Roadphill on the sub-Batman origin story stuff with the hidey hole though. His parents grave, I can live with that, roots in the novels. Even Kincade I can forgive for being an Alfred knock off, because Albert Finney nails it (do sort of wish it was Connery though; I think he’s unrecognisable enough from his Bond days that it would’ve worked). But that whole bit about him going and hiding in the cave and coming out a man or whatever, I hated that.

    Bond never needed an origin story like that imo. Even CR was a stretch (his two kills in the novel were a flashback). I think one of the strengths of the character is how he was introduced fully formed, in the books and the films. You can give him depth without doing an origin story. In a way, I think origin stories are cheating when it comes to giving a character depth. You’re not saying anything new or profound about the character we all know, who they actually are. You’re just saying “they used to be someone else, and then this happened”. Focuses on why the character is what they are, rather than what they actually are and what that means. Cheap doing that with an established character imo, especially one like Bond, who already had a convincing reason for why he is the way he is (he loves his country, wants to defend it, and couldn’t bare the thought of a normal life) without an angsty superhero backstory.

    I agree, but ever since Batman Begins that was the in-thing to do and it paid off with audiences. For me, CR's biggest flaw is the Bond Begins angle. What I like about DN is that we get Bond fully formed from the get-go. After the PTS, it's mostly waiting for that train scene to Montenegro for me, bar that crane chase, which is pretty good.

    Concerning Moneypenny, I've said it before but Caroline Bliss is my favourite. Just love her in all her scenes. I like Samantha Bond a lot too, but DAD didn't go well for her. That virtual love scene is one hell of a cringy moment.
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I actually think all of Craig's films, bar CR, have fairly lacklustre finales.

    I'd agree with this. I'd even throw in CR as well. I never really cared for the Venice sinking building action finale.


    Controversial opinion:

    I'd go as far to say that with the exception of the parkour/crane bit in CR, I find the action sequences in the Craig era fairly lacking. To me it's mostly tight choreography and slick editing rather than original breathtaking stunt sequences.
    The stairwell fight is excellent, but again that's the choreography and editing.

    None of the action scenes scenes in QoS particularly grab me or keep me on the edge of my seat. The sinkhole parachute bit should have been amazing, but the CGI distracts. The underground train bit in SF is fun, but that's more suspense than action.

    I find the chase sequences in SP very lacking and pedestrian.

    Have to disagree. Think QOS has the best action scenes of his 4 movies. Pts, scaffolding fight, boat chase and the climax, CR would come 2nd, mainly for the fight sequences. SF for me, has the worst, none of the action is particularly exciting, hate the fight with Patrice, (more like a dance scene!) SP train scrap is far more thrilling, and the finale is quite poor, just dont find it well directed!

    It is not only about the quality of the action though. Elements as dramatic build up, emotional depth and whether I feel invested in the story is just as important. I would rather watch a lesser action scene where I really care about the characters than a great action scene where I am less bothered. (That being said, I think the action quality in SF's finale is good regardless.)
  • CommanderRossCommanderRoss The bottom of a pitch lake in Eastern Trinidad, place called La Brea
    Posts: 8,253
    jobo wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I actually think all of Craig's films, bar CR, have fairly lacklustre finales.

    I'd agree with this. I'd even throw in CR as well. I never really cared for the Venice sinking building action finale.


    Controversial opinion:

    I'd go as far to say that with the exception of the parkour/crane bit in CR, I find the action sequences in the Craig era fairly lacking. To me it's mostly tight choreography and slick editing rather than original breathtaking stunt sequences.
    The stairwell fight is excellent, but again that's the choreography and editing.

    None of the action scenes scenes in QoS particularly grab me or keep me on the edge of my seat. The sinkhole parachute bit should have been amazing, but the CGI distracts. The underground train bit in SF is fun, but that's more suspense than action.

    I find the chase sequences in SP very lacking and pedestrian.

    Have to disagree. Think QOS has the best action scenes of his 4 movies. Pts, scaffolding fight, boat chase and the climax, CR would come 2nd, mainly for the fight sequences. SF for me, has the worst, none of the action is particularly exciting, hate the fight with Patrice, (more like a dance scene!) SP train scrap is far more thrilling, and the finale is quite poor, just dont find it well directed!

    It is not only about the quality of the action though. Elements as dramatic build up, emotional depth and whether I feel invested in the story is just as important. I would rather watch a lesser action scene where I really care about the characters than a great action scene where I am less bothered. (That being said, I think the action quality in SF's finale is good regardless.)
    I would say the crane chase in CR, the boat fight in QoS, the chase through the opera house in QoS, or the train fight in SP all fit that discription. Personally I find all Craig's movies gripping. Blatant exception is the Rome car chase that's as boring and bad as a car chase could be, even Dad's chase on ice with its tit for tat gadget fighting is more entertaining (but far from gripping).
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    Samantha Bond is on some of the absolute worst scenes on the series. Not her fault at al of course, the blame is on the writers and filmmakers.

    In TND, Moneypenny and M trading innuendo quips as Bond is being sent to ‘pump’ Paris Carver for information. It’s forced, unfunny and horrible. But not as horrible as Moneypenny and her virtual reality session in DAD
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    CommanderRoss wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    ToTheRight wrote: »
    Roadphill wrote: »
    I actually think all of Craig's films, bar CR, have fairly lacklustre finales.

    I'd agree with this. I'd even throw in CR as well. I never really cared for the Venice sinking building action finale.


    Controversial opinion:

    I'd go as far to say that with the exception of the parkour/crane bit in CR, I find the action sequences in the Craig era fairly lacking. To me it's mostly tight choreography and slick editing rather than original breathtaking stunt sequences.
    The stairwell fight is excellent, but again that's the choreography and editing.

    None of the action scenes scenes in QoS particularly grab me or keep me on the edge of my seat. The sinkhole parachute bit should have been amazing, but the CGI distracts. The underground train bit in SF is fun, but that's more suspense than action.

    I find the chase sequences in SP very lacking and pedestrian.

    Have to disagree. Think QOS has the best action scenes of his 4 movies. Pts, scaffolding fight, boat chase and the climax, CR would come 2nd, mainly for the fight sequences. SF for me, has the worst, none of the action is particularly exciting, hate the fight with Patrice, (more like a dance scene!) SP train scrap is far more thrilling, and the finale is quite poor, just dont find it well directed!

    It is not only about the quality of the action though. Elements as dramatic build up, emotional depth and whether I feel invested in the story is just as important. I would rather watch a lesser action scene where I really care about the characters than a great action scene where I am less bothered. (That being said, I think the action quality in SF's finale is good regardless.)
    I would say the crane chase in CR, the boat fight in QoS, the chase through the opera house in QoS, or the train fight in SP all fit that discription. Personally I find all Craig's movies gripping. Blatant exception is the Rome car chase that's as boring and bad as a car chase could be, even Dad's chase on ice with its tit for tat gadget fighting is more entertaining (but far from gripping).

    Sure agree. Craig's films, for the most part, are very engaging and gripping.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Other than the Crane chase in CR, I have to agree. There hasn't been a real stand out action stunt, in the Craig era.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 7,415
    DraxCucumberSandwich wrote: »
    Samantha Bond is on some of the absolute worst scenes on the series. Not her fault at al of course, the blame is on the writers and filmmakers.

    In TND, Moneypenny and M trading innuendo quips as Bond is being sent to ‘pump’ Paris Carver for information. It’s forced, unfunny and horrible. But not as horrible as Moneypenny and her virtual reality session in DAD

    Agreed. Cringeworthy scene.
  • RoadphillRoadphill United Kingdom
    Posts: 984
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    DraxCucumberSandwich wrote: »
    Samantha Bond is on some of the absolute worst scenes on the series. Not her fault at al of course, the blame is on the writers and filmmakers.

    In TND, Moneypenny and M trading innuendo quips as Bond is being sent to ‘pump’ Paris Carver for information. It’s forced, unfunny and horrible. But not as horrible as Moneypenny and her virtual reality session in DAD

    Agreed. Cringeworthy scene.

    That is an awful. I like TND more than most, but that is an absolute eye roller of a scene, one of the cheesiest in Bond history.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    Despite the indignities heaped upon Samantha Bond’s Moneypenny by those two aforementioned scenes, I do really like her in the role. She had great rapport with Brosnan. Even in the ghastly VR scene, a travesty to Moneypenny’a character in my opinion, she and Bronsnan have some hot chemistry when they’re getting to it. More chemistry than Brosnan has with most of the ladies In his Bond movies I would argue....

    But no one could ever come close to Lois Maxwell. The way she was able to maintain a consistent character, treading that fine line between playful flirtation, professionalism, respect , affection and dignity, whist striking up such great onscreen chemistry with three different Bond’s, is I think one of the key ingredients in the longevity of the series
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    Posts: 17,753
    Controversial opinion: I love Samantha Bond as Moneypenny.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    Roadphill wrote: »
    Other than the Crane chase in CR, I have to agree. There hasn't been a real stand out action stunt, in the Craig era.

    I think the PTS for Skyfall is up there. Bike speeding across the rooftops and hand to hand fight atop the train
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    Torgeirtrap wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: I love Samantha Bond as Moneypenny.

    Me too. Only the DAD end scene bothered me. I loved her three other performances, she really did have amazing chemistry with Pierce.

    Now that we're on the subject, I also loved Barbara Bouchet as Moneypenny.
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    edited August 2020 Posts: 17,753
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Torgeirtrap wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: I love Samantha Bond as Moneypenny.

    Me too. Only the DAD end scene bothered me. I loved her three other performances, she really did have amazing chemistry with Pierce.

    Yes, that scene wasn't particularly good, but if I'm in the right mood I might get a chuckle from it. And yes, the chemistry with Pierce was very much there, IMO.
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Now that we're on the subject, I also loved Barbara Bouchet as Moneypenny.

    She was one of the highlights of CR67!
  • ToTheRightToTheRight
    edited August 2020 Posts: 16,154
    Controversial opinion:

    Moneypenny ranking:

    1. LOIS MAXWELL
    2. BARBARA BOUCHET
    3. PAMELA SALEM
    4. NAOMI HARRIS
    5. CAROLINE BLISS
    6. SAMANTHA BOND
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    Mine would go like this:
    1. Caroline Bliss
    2. Barbara Bouchet
    3. Lois Maxwell
    4. Samantha Bond
    5. Naomie Harris
    6. Pamela Salem
  • jobojobo
    Posts: 7,507
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Mine would go like this:
    1. Caroline Bliss
    2. Barbara Bouchet
    3. Lois Maxwell
    4. Samantha Bond
    5. Naomie Harris
    6. Pamela Salem


    Now that is controversial!
  • TorgeirtrapTorgeirtrap
    edited August 2020 Posts: 17,753
    Mine would be:
    1. Lois Maxwell
    2. Samantha Bond
    3. Naomie Harris
    4. Barbara Bouchet
    5. Caroline Bliss
    6. Pamela Salem

    Lois Maxwell will always be my #1 Moneypenny. Doesn't matter how good whoever follows her are; she starred with three different Bonds, and had great chemistry with all of them. Samantha Bond is my second favourite, closely followed by Naomie Harris. I never liked the way they introduced her in SF. The field operative turned secretary felt more than a bit forced, the way they presented it on screen. Honourable mention for Barbara Bouchet at 4th. As for Caroline Bliss and Pamela Salem, I never had an issue with them, they just weren't really given any memorable moments.
  • Mathis1Mathis1
    Posts: 7,415
    Mine would be
    1. Lois Maxwell
    2. Barbara Bouchet
    3. Caroline Bliss
    4. Pamela Salem
    5. Naomi Harris
    6. Samantha Bond
    Bliss was better than people give her credit for, i recall John Glen saying he regretted putting her in glasses! She worked well with Dalton.
    Would have loved Barbara Bouchet to have been in an EON Bond film. Gorgeous!
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    Mathis1 wrote: »
    Bliss was better than people give her credit for, i recall John Glen saying he regretted putting her in glasses! She worked well with Dalton.
    Would have loved Barbara Bouchet to have been in an EON Bond film. Gorgeous!

    Wholeheartedly agreed.
  • ThunderballThunderball playing Chemin de Fer in a casino, downing Vespers
    Posts: 814
    Moneypenny ranking? Hmm..

    1. Lois Maxwell
    2. Naomi Harris
    3. Samantha Bond
    4. Caroline Bliss
    5. Barbara Bouchet
    6. Pamela Salem

    Samantha Bond is barely in third, I think she’s really good, but is severely hampered by the writers.
    Nobody, I mean nobody will ever measure up to Maxwell.
  • Herr_StockmannHerr_Stockmann
    Posts: 910
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Mine would go like this:
    1. Caroline Bliss
    2. Barbara Bouchet
    3. Lois Maxwell
    4. Samantha Bond
    5. Naomie Harris
    6. Pamela Salem

    While I don't like Barbara Bouchet's Moneypenny as much as you do, I really love Caroline Bliss and I would also tend to rank her at the top of the list. Definitely an underrated regular and I'm still saddened that she did not have more opportunities to shine in the role.
  • GoldenGunGoldenGun Per ora e per il momento che verrà
    Posts: 7,114
    Herr_Stockmann wrote: »
    GoldenGun wrote: »
    Mine would go like this:
    1. Caroline Bliss
    2. Barbara Bouchet
    3. Lois Maxwell
    4. Samantha Bond
    5. Naomie Harris
    6. Pamela Salem

    While I don't like Barbara Bouchet's Moneypenny as much as you do, I really love Caroline Bliss and I would also tend to rank her at the top of the list. Definitely an underrated regular and I'm still saddened that she did not have more opportunities to shine in the role.

    Glad to read I'm not alone on the Bliss appreciation :)

    Concerning Bouchet, I might be a bit biased as a huge giallo fan, a genre in which she made many appearances, but I still consider her a very good Moneypenny who deserved to be in a better film.
  • AstonLotusAstonLotus
    edited August 2020 Posts: 1,394
    Torgeirtrap wrote: »
    Controversial opinion: I love Samantha Bond as Moneypenny.

    Same here.I also think the VR scene at the end of DAD is absolutely hilarious.I well remember seeing the film back in the cinema back in the day and the whole audience burst out laughing when Cleese came in and interrupted her!

    I think Harris is by FAR the worst Moneypenny.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I also think the VR scene at the end of DAD is absolutely hilarious.

    It is kind of funny but I find it so disrespectful and undermining towards Moneypenny as a character that it’s a joke I could definitely do without

    It’s also a prime example of the kind of Loaded 90’s lads mag humour vibe I sometimes get from
    Brosnan Bond movies, which I’m not overly fond of. Overall I actually quite like DAD, much much more than TWINE let alone TND. But it’s a movie that is tainted for me (and plenty of others so not a controversial opinion as such) by a number of unfortunate elements. Moneypenny in the VR session and the ‘cgi stunt’ parasurfing in particular.
  • BT3366BT3366
    Posts: 1,917
    DraxCucumberSandwich wrote: »
    AstonLotus wrote: »
    I also think the VR scene at the end of DAD is absolutely hilarious.

    It is kind of funny but I find it so disrespectful and undermining towards Moneypenny as a character that it’s a joke I could definitely do without

    It’s also a prime example of the kind of Loaded 90’s lads mag humour vibe I sometimes get from
    Brosnan Bond movies, which I’m not overly fond of. Overall I actually quite like DAD, much much more than TWINE let alone TND. But it’s a movie that is tainted for me (and plenty of others so not a controversial opinion as such) by a number of unfortunate elements. Moneypenny in the VR session and the ‘cgi stunt’ parasurfing in particular.
    I'm with you here on several things. You could tell they wanted a more serious style of Bond film but can't resist keeping the holdover cheap humor from the Moore era. It had to be frustrating for Brosnan in that those things got pretty much eliminated for Craig.

    Also have no problem saying I like DAD better than TWINE. At least I had fun with DAD and not with the dour TWINE.
  • DraxCucumberSandwichDraxCucumberSandwich United Kingdom
    Posts: 208
    On a recent rewatch of all the movies, I found that DAD has a lot going for it. Fantastic pre title sequence followed by an amazing title sequence - Daniel Kleiman really stepped out of Binder’s shadow with this one.
    Brosnan gives a really great performance as Bond, maybe even better than GE. Like you always seem to get with Brosnan, there are personal stakes for Bond here, after being betrayed to the North Koreans and suffering so much for it, but this time it plays well and the stakes feel earned. The first half of the movie has a lot of the old school Bond flavour that I love so much but with a modern twist. I like Halle Berry in the movie and the fencing duel is ridiculous but in the right way.

    It’s fair to say that thereafter the movie stumbles...
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,288
    Controversial opinion: I find Bond's sexual relationship with Melina more uncomfortable than the (non-) one with Bibi.
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