Controversial opinions about Bond films

1640641643645646707

Comments

  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,587
    It's definitely my least favorite. There are some great moments, especially in Isthmus City. However, I always found the truck chase to be overrated and long, but Dalton gives a great performance in the whole thing.
  • Posts: 15,116
    It's definitely my least favorite. There are some great moments, especially in Isthmus City. However, I always found the truck chase to be overrated and long, but Dalton gives a great performance in the whole thing.

    Another controversial opinion: Glen was not the ideal director for either LTK or Dalton.
  • Last_Rat_StandingLast_Rat_Standing Long Neck Ice Cold Beer Never Broke My Heart
    Posts: 4,587
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It's definitely my least favorite. There are some great moments, especially in Isthmus City. However, I always found the truck chase to be overrated and long, but Dalton gives a great performance in the whole thing.

    Another controversial opinion: Glen was not the ideal director for either LTK or Dalton.

    It's odd since LTK is Glen's favorite. Glen is definitely not my favorite director either. The 80s are not my favorite era either with the exception of Octopussy which easily could have been a 70s era film.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It's definitely my least favorite. There are some great moments, especially in Isthmus City. However, I always found the truck chase to be overrated and long, but Dalton gives a great performance in the whole thing.

    Another controversial opinion: Glen was not the ideal director for either LTK or Dalton.

    I'd agree with that. I've said on here recently that the idea of someone like John McTiernan making it just instantly feels more energised.
    And I think Dalton's Bond did have problems: if we'd have seen him under a different director it would have been interesting to see if he'd been a bit stronger.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I've never been a big fan of LTK to be honest. I always thought the starting point was a tired cliché from 80s action movies: hero resigns to avenge his friend. Even if I disliked the stepbrother angle, I much prefer SP overall and was just glad we got Blofeld back. My controversial opinion.

    Yes, Blofeld is the one Bond villain who should have been coming back periodically in the movies. I know there was the rights issues, but if EON had the rights we would seen him long before the reboot. I am happy that Christoph Waltz at least played him, and SPECTRE is free too use in EON. Blofeld should be for Bond like Lex Luthor is for Superman: always having a shadowy presence.

    As for LTK I like that certain supporting characters got some true screentime, while adding to the plot: Q and Felix Leiter. It’s time for them to get that type of storyline for both again, be it movie or video game.
  • RichardTheBruceRichardTheBruce I'm motivated by my Duty.
    edited May 2021 Posts: 13,789
    Mallory wrote: »
    jobo wrote: »
    I honestly was a bit disappointed when Spectre again begins with Bond disobeying orders, arguing with M about it, going rogue... I remember thinking; "here we go again"...

    I sure hope it is not a new formula trope that Bond and M has to have a heated argument at soe point during the film.

    To see Bond and Mallory develop a good working relationship, through to the acceptance, by Bond, that Mallory was the new M and his boss... and then go straight to SP and Bond/Mallory arguing straight away, was thoroughly disappointing to say the least.

    Bond was such a little shit towards Mallory in the post-PTS meeting, I am surprised Mallory didnt physically kick him out the room.
    Denbigh wrote: »
    As well as completely going against what they'd set up, which is one of the main reasons for me Spectre is so frustrating, it completely undid the development between Bond and Mallory. A development I think could be somewhat similar to Bond and Nomi's in No Time to Die. That clashing of ideals and personality before finding mutual respect.

    I took that first scene with Bond and Mallory very differently.

    OO7 is obviously withholding information to avoid compromising his boss M. Where he divulged everything at that point in time and short of The Big Picture (an important point made in Casino Royale), Mallory would be undercut and obligated to report some detail through channels that C would be all over. Game over.

    This is confirmed to me with the reveal that OO7 received instructions from the late M. And still later in the restaurant when Q and Moneypenny approach Mallory to assist Bond in the field. M rightly waives them off, there's no helping Bond until Bond lets them know he's ready for that. Which plays out in the final act. Mallory in the restaurant knows Bond's usefulness being beyond orders and appearances. Knowing who to trust, if I can invoke that phrase.

    So events show M (as new to the position) coming up to speed and becoming the M I'd hoped for. They're on very fine terms with earned mutual respect at story's end.

    4c3138d77792f824a0a92b4bf457e0a3.gif
  • Posts: 1,917
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It's definitely my least favorite. There are some great moments, especially in Isthmus City. However, I always found the truck chase to be overrated and long, but Dalton gives a great performance in the whole thing.

    Another controversial opinion: Glen was not the ideal director for either LTK or Dalton.

    I'd agree with that. I've said on here recently that the idea of someone like John McTiernan making it just instantly feels more energised.
    And I think Dalton's Bond did have problems: if we'd have seen him under a different director it would have been interesting to see if he'd been a bit stronger.
    I don't think it's a controversial opinion because I agree as well. Glen was arguably hired because of his work as editor and second unit director, helping craft amazing action scenes.

    But they couldn't use McTiernan, he's, gasp, an American. Seriously, I always wondered what he could've done with a Bond film and could never understand Eon's insistence on having a British director for all those years.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Ludovico wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Revelator wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I don't like the "Brofeld" angle myself (otherwise I like SP), but I agree: this is the mind of contrived coincidences that often happen in Fleming and in spy fiction in general.

    I think one can make a distinction between the sort of plotting contrivances that are often necessary to kickstart a thriller (which is by nature a chain of implausible events) and the even more wildly contrived revelation of secret "family" relationships among already well-established characters, which is a hallmark of melodrama and a cheap attempt to make things personal for the hero. And of course the hallmark of the Craig series is making everything personal for Bond--turning Blofeld into a quasi-sibling of Bond marks the ludicrous apex of this tendency. The result is just bathos.

    The oddest thing is that Bond doesn’t even seem all that bothered throughout the film that his foster brother is behind it all. You could easily edit/ADR out any references to being foster brothers and it doesn’t exactly change the dynamic which is that Bond had been a foil for SPECTRE and he finally reached the top boss. This is especially true with the London climax, where Blofeld is incensed not because Bond is his foster brother but because he destroyed his base and wants revenge.

    That's not really true though: Blofeld's whole obsession with Bond ('author of your pain' and all that) is because of the cuckoo resentment. He's supposed to have been toying with him all this time: there's no mention at all of wanting revenge for the crater base in the MI6 climax is there?
    Bond doesn't return that fascination with Blofeld, but that's because he never had- he didn't intend to push him out of the nest when he was a kid. It's true that he could have been shown to want vengeance for Hannes Oberhauser, but at this point in his life he's got bigger fish to fry, and perhaps the writers were wary of giving Bond another person to avenge when we've had the shadow of Vesper hanging over the last few films, and are now being told that Blofeld is in some way responsible for M's death too.

    I guess it's a Kirk/Khan thing: Kirk does not obsess about Khan, but Khan does about Kirk. But I do agree with @MakeshiftPython that you take off the brother angle and you have the exact same plot, same movie. And maybe that's why it doesn't bother me too much, paradoxically.

    Pretty much. You could have Blofeld still having a grudge against Bond because of how he’s been foiling things since CR. The foster brother stuff just isn’t strong enough.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    BT3366 wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    It's definitely my least favorite. There are some great moments, especially in Isthmus City. However, I always found the truck chase to be overrated and long, but Dalton gives a great performance in the whole thing.

    Another controversial opinion: Glen was not the ideal director for either LTK or Dalton.

    I'd agree with that. I've said on here recently that the idea of someone like John McTiernan making it just instantly feels more energised.
    And I think Dalton's Bond did have problems: if we'd have seen him under a different director it would have been interesting to see if he'd been a bit stronger.
    I don't think it's a controversial opinion because I agree as well. Glen was arguably hired because of his work as editor and second unit director, helping craft amazing action scenes.

    But they couldn't use McTiernan, he's, gasp, an American. Seriously, I always wondered what he could've done with a Bond film and could never understand Eon's insistence on having a British director for all those years.

    Yeah I don’t get the British director rule. Maybe it was a financial thing?
  • BT3366 wrote: »
    But they couldn't use McTiernan, he's, gasp, an American. Seriously, I always wondered what he could've done with a Bond film and could never understand Eon's insistence on having a British director for all those years.
    As John Landis explained that he was courted by Cubby to direct LTK, it would not have been inconceivable to see an American filmmaker directing a Bond during this period. I think this "no American director" rule was true during Moore's tenure, but arguably could have changed during the 1980s.

    Nevertheless, I'm sure other English or Commonwealth directors were available at the time. As much as I love LTK narratively, I sincerely think the film would have benefited greatly from another director. The unusualness of the plot could have been offset by more glamorous or visually striking cinematography, especially regarding the first act in Key West (which would have greatly benefited from being located elsewhere). The audience would have had more the impression of watching a Bond film, and none of the comparisons with Miami Vice would have happened. Visually speaking, Glen was not very inspired, except IMO for the whole segment at the casino and Bond's attempted assassination of Sanchez.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Although directors obviously do make final decisions on that, that is more the director of photography's job though.
  • Posts: 7,507
    mtm wrote: »
    Although directors obviously do make final decisions on that, that is more the director of photography's job though.

    Not to mention the production designer, the team of location scouts and the producers making the final choice of location and budget. If production design, locations, budget and cinematographer is subpar, there are obviously limits to how much a director can influence the film visually. Although I agree the eye for visuals was not Glen's strong point, blaming him for the production design, image quality and choice of locations is highly unfair!
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    I want to hate DAF. It's a hot mess on so many levels, and a desecration of everything OHMSS stands for. And yet I can't.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    I think a lot of fans treat DAF rather unfairly just because it’s not a sequel to OHMSS.
  • Posts: 7,507
    I think a lot of fans treat DAF rather unfairly just because it’s not a sequel to OHMSS.

    First time I watched DAF I didn't know OHMSS existed. I still thought it was the weakest Bond film I had seen to date...
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    I would say it's one of the weakest, yes. In terms of memorable sequences you have the cremation bit, the fight in the lift (which I don't rate as highly as some do)... Bond in the pipeline maybe? Then I start to run out of good bits- it's just a bit flat and some of the action is rubbish (the moonbuggy chase). But it is full of good lines and jokes, and it does feel big in a way that LALD after it doesn't.
  • edited May 2021 Posts: 910
    jobo wrote: »
    mtm wrote: »
    Although directors obviously do make final decisions on that, that is more the director of photography's job though.

    Not to mention the production designer, the team of location scouts and the producers making the final choice of location and budget. If production design, locations, budget and cinematographer is subpar, there are obviously limits to how much a director can influence the film visually. Although I agree the eye for visuals was not Glen's strong point, blaming him for the production design, image quality and choice of locations is highly unfair!

    Although I agree with you that the conception of a movie is a team effort and therefore the responsibility, in case of either success or failure, is shared, we cannot take away from the director his role as guarantor of a vision (even if for the Bond series in particular, Cubby was at the time just as important if not more in the direct cinematographic creation, in the establishment of a clear vision for the film).

    Glen was not an auteur, but as a director he had a primary role in shaping the visual identity of the film, the DP, the production designer, putting themselves at the service of his vision which they try to bring to the screen while making suggestions, something Hunt, with a more or less similar career, did.

    Therefore, I think he can be held responsible for the visual direction taken by the film, whether it is the choices made for photography, lighting, sets, locations, etc. But it's in these fields (not from beginning to end of the movie luckily, I think mostly of the first act actually) that LTK weakens. However, to soften what might appear to be a pretty harsh opinion against Glen, I really like LTK (I rank it as my second favorite Bond) and I think Glen was able to show in TLD that he also had the eye for visuals.

    Obviously, another DP would have been beneficial, as much if not more probably than a change of director. I've said it a few times before, but Jan de Bont (Die Hard, Black Rain) would have been a brilliant choice at the time to serve on the series. As a DP for LTK of course, but also for Ruggiero's Bond 17 script. He would arguably have done wonders with its Hong Kong by night setting.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Would have loved someone like Philip Noyce or John McTiernan to have helmed LTK, with Jan De Bont (a great suggestion above by @Herr_Stockmann) on lensing duties.

    I don't actually have too much issue with how Glen handled it, though. Any cracks in its production value are papered over by its many strengths.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    One big flaw on Glen’s part is the insistence in inserting humor where it wasn’t appropriate. Like when Dario sees Pam through a dust of cocaine and thinks he’s seeing her as an angel. Like… WHY did that need to be there?
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    I don't mind that too much, especially as it requires the audience to have actually have been paying attention regarding which character knows what!
  • Junglist_1985Junglist_1985 Los Angeles
    edited May 2021 Posts: 1,031
    One big flaw on Glen’s part is the insistence in inserting humor where it wasn’t appropriate. Like when Dario sees Pam through a dust of cocaine and thinks he’s seeing her as an angel. Like… WHY did that need to be there?

    You just summed up my beef with Octopussy… in an otherwise sumptuous, action-filled Bond film, Glen felt the need to insert some of the worst humor of the entire franchise for some reason.

    Same can be said for Bibi and hockey match in FYEO. Quite uneven tone. Also, as a huge TLD fan, we really dodged a bullet with the “magic carpet” ride…
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    That’s why I think Glen suited Moore’s films better than Dalton’s. I wish we could have seen a Dalton film without Glen directing.
  • Posts: 2,402
    BT3366 wrote: »
    But they couldn't use McTiernan, he's, gasp, an American. Seriously, I always wondered what he could've done with a Bond film and could never understand Eon's insistence on having a British director for all those years.
    As John Landis explained that he was courted by Cubby to direct LTK...

    How godawful would that have been? John Landis the f#$%ing murderer, comedy buffoon, directing ANY Bond film, much less Licence to Kill? Him not getting that gig almost makes me wonder if there IS a God after all...
  • edited May 2021 Posts: 2,402
    I think a lot of fans treat DAF rather unfairly just because it’s not a sequel to OHMSS.

    I think Diamonds Are Forever is pretty much trash across the board, just abysmally executed on almost every front, and the fact that it's an "eff you" response to Majesty's just makes it the final nail in the coffin and even more of an unpleasant experience to sit through.

    If anything, I think fans focus too much on the OHMSS thing in a different way: I don't think DAF gets acknolwedged ENOUGH for how trashy and ugly of a film it is, and how bad so much of the action, dialougue, and acting is.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    edited May 2021 Posts: 8,183
    If you take DAF that seriously, you’ll never have fun with it.
  • Posts: 2,402
    If you take DAF that seriously, you’ll never have fun with it.

    How am I supposed to have fun with a movie whose apparent views of "peak comedy" are an elephant playing slots and a man in drag saying "look what the cat DRAGGED in"?
  • I think DAF is always a fun film to watch. When you accept that it’s a trashy follow up to OHMSS, and accept all of the other goofy elements in the movie, you actually CAN have a good time.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    If you really think about it, the Guy Hamilton Bond films are dark comedies, particularly when Tom Mankiewicz was writing. In a sense, Tom Mankiewicz was a hypocrite when comparing his work on Superman and Bond. He criticized Mario Puzo’s script for Superman as campy, saying that Telly Savalas as a surprise cameo was wrong. He did the same thing with Bond and Sammy Davis Jr! I wouldn’t hold Tom Mankiewicz as one of the best Bond screenwriters, that’s my Controversial opinion.
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    If you really think about it, the Guy Hamilton Bond films are dark comedies, particularly when Tom Mankiewicz was writing. In a sense, Tom Mankiewicz was a hypocrite when comparing his work on Superman and Bond. He criticized Mario Puzo’s script for Superman as campy, saying that Telly Savalas as a surprise cameo was wrong. He did the same thing with Bond and Sammy Davis Jr! I wouldn’t hold Tom Mankiewicz as one of the best Bond screenwriters, that’s my Controversial opinion.

    Mankiewicz wrote as the filmmakers wanted. Guy Hamilton wanted macabre camp. Richard Donner wanted an ambitious superhero epic. Mankiewicz wasn’t calling the shots beyond the parameters that were set.
    If you take DAF that seriously, you’ll never have fun with it.

    How am I supposed to have fun with a movie whose apparent views of "peak comedy" are an elephant playing slots and a man in drag saying "look what the cat DRAGGED in"?

    By accepting 70s Bond as it was in that era: camp.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    MaxCasino wrote: »
    If you really think about it, the Guy Hamilton Bond films are dark comedies, particularly when Tom Mankiewicz was writing. In a sense, Tom Mankiewicz was a hypocrite when comparing his work on Superman and Bond. He criticized Mario Puzo’s script for Superman as campy, saying that Telly Savalas as a surprise cameo was wrong. He did the same thing with Bond and Sammy Davis Jr! I wouldn’t hold Tom Mankiewicz as one of the best Bond screenwriters, that’s my Controversial opinion.

    Mankiewicz wrote as the filmmakers wanted. Guy Hamilton wanted macabre camp. Richard Donner wanted an ambitious superhero epic. Mankiewicz wasn’t calling the shots beyond the parameters that were set.
    If you take DAF that seriously, you’ll never have fun with it.

    How am I supposed to have fun with a movie whose apparent views of "peak comedy" are an elephant playing slots and a man in drag saying "look what the cat DRAGGED in"?

    By accepting 70s Bond as it was in that era: camp.

    The Rosetta stone of DAF is: "My God, you just killed James Bond!"
Sign In or Register to comment.