Controversial opinions about Bond films

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  • Posts: 15,116
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I don't think LTK damaged anything. It was just released in a gauntlet of films in the summer of 89. Personally, I think if it was released in any other point in the year, it would have deemed more successful. I never read too much into the financial issues and lawsuits in the early 90s, but I don't think LTK was the factor

    I could be wrong, but I remember reading that, if LTK had been more financially successful, MGM's sale at cut-rate prices of the 007 library at the end of 90'/beginning of 91', which initially angered Cubby and resulted in the long years of legal trouble that froze the franchise, probably wouldn't have happened, or at least things would have been different because Bond would have been seen as something much more profitable. So, although LTK did not damage anything when it was released, its mixed box office numbers will therefore be a handicap afterwards.

    Had Bond 17 been able to go into production shortly before the start of the legal disputes, and released in the fall of 1991, facing little serious competition, things could probably have been different as Cubby may have had a possible box office success to play in the balance, questioning MGM's politics.

    I think the long hiatus and uncertainty between LTK and GE can be explained by many factors, both internal and external. LTK could have been better packaged, could have looked more Bondian, could have been released at a better time. But by itself it would just have been a disappointing entry, at least un terms of popularity at the time. The end of the Cold War also played a role I think. An issue that GE resolved seamlessly, but at the time it seriously challenged Bond's relevance.

    That's partly true but you need to remember that the Berlin Wall was still standing at the time of LTK's release in June and July of 1989 and didn't come down until November 1989. There's also the fact that the previous Dalton film TLD the Cold War wasn't actually a backdrop to the machinations of the plot. There was a conscious effort to move away from the Cold War in this film with South American drug cartels and a personal vendetta on Bond's part being the focus of the plot instead. I suppose one could say that the writing was on the wall (unintentional GoldenEye reference there!) with the glasnost and perestroika Soviet reforms under Gorbachev being the order of the day but the Cold War hadn't officially ended during LTK's release. The Soviet Union was still very much in place and I'm sure few at the time could have predicted what was to occur in the latter part of 1989. I'd imagine that a bloodless coup was beyond most people's wildest imaginings at the time.

    I know the Berlin Wall was still standing when LTK was released, but the Eastern Block was on its last leg. And it was not a one year hiatus. It lasted until 1995. It's like the world of Bond was falling apart.
    Ludovico wrote: »
    But by itself it would just have been a disappointing entry, at least un terms of popularity at the time. The end of the Cold War also played a role I think. An issue that GE resolved seamlessly, but at the time it seriously challenged Bond's relevance.
    Did the end of Cold War really play a role, though? I have this impression that it was a preconceived idea that was reported in the press more than a reality, that Eon skillfully used as a trope to build a story to bring back Bond after a period of absence. As the Soviet republics began to gain independence, LTK made no reference to the news while Bond 17, set to be release a few month before Gorbatchev's resignation, anticipated the handover of Hong Kong to the Republic of China and was written by a team of writers watching the Gulf War on CNN. The end of the Cold War, which was at the same time intensely used by Gardner in his novels, did not seem to worry or preoccupy Eon that seemed to be moving forward, thinking about the future of global affairs.

    It might have been mere perception, but it was definitely in the public perception and it was something that they needed to address. And they did.
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    edited May 2021 Posts: 18,270
    Ludovico wrote: »
    Dragonpol wrote: »
    Ludovico wrote: »
    I don't think LTK damaged anything. It was just released in a gauntlet of films in the summer of 89. Personally, I think if it was released in any other point in the year, it would have deemed more successful. I never read too much into the financial issues and lawsuits in the early 90s, but I don't think LTK was the factor

    I could be wrong, but I remember reading that, if LTK had been more financially successful, MGM's sale at cut-rate prices of the 007 library at the end of 90'/beginning of 91', which initially angered Cubby and resulted in the long years of legal trouble that froze the franchise, probably wouldn't have happened, or at least things would have been different because Bond would have been seen as something much more profitable. So, although LTK did not damage anything when it was released, its mixed box office numbers will therefore be a handicap afterwards.

    Had Bond 17 been able to go into production shortly before the start of the legal disputes, and released in the fall of 1991, facing little serious competition, things could probably have been different as Cubby may have had a possible box office success to play in the balance, questioning MGM's politics.

    I think the long hiatus and uncertainty between LTK and GE can be explained by many factors, both internal and external. LTK could have been better packaged, could have looked more Bondian, could have been released at a better time. But by itself it would just have been a disappointing entry, at least un terms of popularity at the time. The end of the Cold War also played a role I think. An issue that GE resolved seamlessly, but at the time it seriously challenged Bond's relevance.

    That's partly true but you need to remember that the Berlin Wall was still standing at the time of LTK's release in June and July of 1989 and didn't come down until November 1989. There's also the fact that the previous Dalton film TLD the Cold War wasn't actually a backdrop to the machinations of the plot. There was a conscious effort to move away from the Cold War in this film with South American drug cartels and a personal vendetta on Bond's part being the focus of the plot instead. I suppose one could say that the writing was on the wall (unintentional GoldenEye reference there!) with the glasnost and perestroika Soviet reforms under Gorbachev being the order of the day but the Cold War hadn't officially ended during LTK's release. The Soviet Union was still very much in place and I'm sure few at the time could have predicted what was to occur in the latter part of 1989. I'd imagine that a bloodless coup was beyond most people's wildest imaginings at the time.

    I know the Berlin Wall was still standing when LTK was released, but the Eastern Block was on its last leg. And it was not a one year hiatus. It lasted until 1995. It's like the world of Bond was falling apart.

    Yes, of course that's a good point about the waning Soviet influence and hold over their Eastern Bloc empire at that time. As I said in my post above the writing was on the wall for the Soviet system and Communism in general in the Soviet Union abd its Eastern Bloc satellite states for anyone who wanted to see it and weren't living in some sort of Cloud Cuckoo Land of Denial.
  • echoecho 007 in New York
    Posts: 6,296
    The Cold War is what makes TLD work and LTK stumble...and besides, all Bond films set in the US tend to have major issues, aside from GF (and GF was set back when Miami was a premier destination).
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Why is Bond using a Nokia phone ? Obviously I know they paid a lot to get it placed in the movie but I work with mobile phones and NO ONE buys Nokia. Well they are bought mainly by workers who know they're going to break them and need something cheap to replace on a regular basis. One step up from a burner.
  • Posts: 1,630
    ??? Miami Beach was the location for some of the story in GF, not Miami. Either way, whether referencing Miami, the greater metropolitan area, and/or Miami Beach, it is more popular now than it was in 1964. At any rate -- that has nothing to do with GF "having major issues" or not. In fact, your premise does not seem to hold water -- whether salt or fresh. TB has its climax in Biscayne Bay, so close to the shore that Miami is visible in the background. South Florida -- defined verrry broadly, so as to include Key West -- was not a setting again until LTK. Whether one likes LTK or not -- and I've read many posts, reviews and arguments both for and against, and made some myself -- it has nothing to do with the use of the Keys for a setting for some of the story and action. Did True Lies use the roadway to and from the Keys, and downtown Miami as more effective settings ? Yes. True Lies was more animated and entertaining than LTK. They both used tropes, but the central plot of LTK was worn thin before they even went to production. Additionally, the direction in True Lies was more skillful and entertaining. Again, though, the problems for LTK do not lie in its setting. South Florida would not be a setting again until CR -- which did not actually film in Miami or anywhere else in South Florida. CR used it as the setting for the display of stiff, skinless dead bodies, which was an actual touring presentation, and for the airport scenes wherein Bond thwarted the plan to explode the new jet. Both scenes were effective and well done. I'll go back to your first statement, too. "The Cold War is what makes TLD work..." The USSR, indeed, went on a prolonged and lousy "mission" in Afghanistan. The US and allies supported their opposition. Part of the Cold War ? Sure. Now that the USSR uses a different name, a different official structure and so on, do they and the western allies still combat each other in proxy ways ? Yup. So the conflicts remain, and are used effectively in many thrillers. But, sure, at the time, with the USSR newly changed, LTK would not use them for the villains. Did the change, or even apparent end, of the Cold War cause LTK to stumble ? I disagree. LTK stumbled because it used a worn out plot by then thoroughly used and overused in other films and even tv productions. Not "tv productions" like now, when streaming networks show excellent movies and long-form shows, but the poorer quality, much lower-financed tv productions of that time. LTK also featured listless direction. So, both your statements -- about the Cold War, and referencing "Miami" and suggesting it was a more "premier" location in 1964 than presently, do not hold up, in my view.

    Going beyond Miami, to your broader statement that Bond films set in the US "have major issues", it depends on whether that is coincidental, or if you think the setting related directly to, and was a contributing cause of the "major issues." In addition to the South Florida settings discussed above, GF used Kentucky -- the location of Fort Knox and a bunch of gold therein -- and a brief airport setting commencing the climax. DAF used Las Vegas and the surrounding desert. LALD used locations set in Louisiana, and in New York. Did those films' settings damage the films ? I think not. Did the films have problems ? I'll just say problems, and avoid the lack of question of what constitutes a "major issue." After all, is the relative dullness of some of the Kentucky scenes a "major issue" ? Bond's assault of Pussy Galore is a major issue, but the setting is not the problem. (Bond winning Pussy over, and Pussy admitting she found Bond attractive, could have been handled much better, even for a film made in the early 1960s. Their fighting and one-ups on each other were fine, but it turned toward sexual assault and it was so unecessary !)

    The Bond films "turn to the silly stuff " started before Roger Moore's films, particularly so in DAF, the last film before Moore started, but it was a fun film at the time, Connery was back, even if for just one more (at the time) film, and he was much more engaged, entertained and entertaining than in YOLT, and it paid off. The Willard Whyte storyline actually was quite timely, then, since he was inspired by the reclusive and, by then, notoriously weird Howard Hughes. Still, the special effects for the targets of the satellite beam attacks in DAF, for one thing, were AWFUL, but they were not location-related. As for the increased silliness, it really only amplified an aspect present in all the films. As Roger Moore noted at least once, these films were entertainments, so wink at yourself and the audience and enjoy it. Problems in LALD, likewise, exist, but not due to locations. Therefore, I'll figure that your comments about films set in the US having major issues to be a matter of coincidence, and not a statement that those issues resulted from the locations.

    Noting that these films were mostly well-funded actioneers with style, we are not reviewing Citizen Kane here ! Don't pretty much most of the Bond films have "major issues" ? Depends on the definition, so I'll switch the question to -- don't most of them have problems ? Most of them have England as a setting. Do you want to say that most of the films with English settings have "major issues", or "problems" ? You could, but it is a distraction, at best. It makes it seem the settings have something to do with those problems, whereas I think not.

    I know I've written an awful lot about a very brief statement you made. That can be an issue with brief statements -- such as texts and social media. They're so brief -- cryptic, even -- that intended meanings get lost. Some fool gets their undies in a twist over some slant they take on a brief statement, and off they go with unbridled, perhaps unwarranted critical comments that go on much longer than the one they comment upon. So...please excuse me while I go change my clothes, they're sweaty due to over-exertion on silliness, and parts are twisted.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    Why is Bond using a Nokia phone ? Obviously I know they paid a lot to get it placed in the movie but I work with mobile phones and NO ONE buys Nokia. Well they are bought mainly by workers who know they're going to break them and need something cheap to replace on a regular basis. One step up from a burner.
    I thought they might've gone with Samsung since there was one in Spectre, albeit with the logo covered over.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Apple or a high end Samsung, but I guess Nokia had deeper pockets. Although just their luck the film has been so delayed that their new phone is now out of date.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    Posts: 16,382
    Well I think they'll just replace it in the movie with a newer one if they have to.
  • CraigMooreOHMSSCraigMooreOHMSS Dublin, Ireland
    Posts: 8,216
    Why is Bond using a Nokia phone ? Obviously I know they paid a lot to get it placed in the movie but I work with mobile phones and NO ONE buys Nokia. Well they are bought mainly by workers who know they're going to break them and need something cheap to replace on a regular basis. One step up from a burner.

    That's exactly why I quite like the idea of him using a Nokia, to be fair. He doesn't really need a top of the range phone. But then again, I didn't mind him driving a BMW in the 90s for the same reason. It seemed more like a car a spy would drive (well in TND, at least).
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    Probably because I work with phones, I'm probably a bit over the top about it, so for that I do apologise but from my experience pensioners and those looking for a very cheap phone are their customer base. I still have my old Sony Ericsson K800i, and who knows Perhaps Bond will make them cool again. I noticed watching MI5 today that Ethan Hunt was using a Nokia, so they are really pushing to get in to Successful movies.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    Posts: 14,571
    from my experience pensioners and those looking for a very cheap phone are their customer base. I still have my old Sony Ericsson K800i, and who knows Perhaps Bond will make them cool again.
    It just so happens that the old Nokia 3210 will feature in NTTD. Grey colour. I bought one last year.
  • DenbighDenbigh UK
    edited May 2021 Posts: 5,970
    Also doesn't it make sense for a spy or terrorist to have an old phone? I imagine a more modern phone is easier to be tracked or traced.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    It's great watching old episodes of Spooks, the older phones at every chance they had were stripped of their battery and sim card. Old trade craft well, old movie spy trade craft.
  • ImpertinentGoonImpertinentGoon Everybody needs a hobby.
    Posts: 1,351
    But we are talking about Bond, where technology does what it does and never does what.it shouldn't do. Have Q give him the phone. Say it's unhackable and untraceable. Done. (A manufacturer could even make this a point in advertising. Apple is putting data security features forward, Blackberry used to do similar.)
    Smartphones and now smartwatches are a general problem for Bond. Eventhough we know he uses his gadgets, they can't be too powerful and they have to be unique. They can't just bang a Geiger counter app on an AppleWatch or tell him in Skyfall "Don't worry we'll just track your phone." (Yes, I know a bad guy can take away his phone) it has to be something special. A cursory look shows that Bond had had Sony smartphones at least in the last two films, but I can't recall him doing anything other than telephoning with them, right. Strangely enough, in CR he has a SatNav on his "dumb" Sony phone, but hasn't used anything like it since, as far as I know.
  • Posts: 7,507
    Phones are old school. Q is into radioes these days.
  • ThunderpussyThunderpussy My Secret Lair
    Posts: 13,384
    :)) and not even DAB ones !
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 16,382
    But we are talking about Bond, where technology does what it does and never does what.it shouldn't do. Have Q give him the phone. Say it's unhackable and untraceable. Done. (A manufacturer could even make this a point in advertising. Apple is putting data security features forward, Blackberry used to do similar.)
    Smartphones and now smartwatches are a general problem for Bond. Eventhough we know he uses his gadgets, they can't be too powerful and they have to be unique. They can't just bang a Geiger counter app on an AppleWatch or tell him in Skyfall "Don't worry we'll just track your phone." (Yes, I know a bad guy can take away his phone) it has to be something special. A cursory look shows that Bond had had Sony smartphones at least in the last two films, but I can't recall him doing anything other than telephoning with them, right. Strangely enough, in CR he has a SatNav on his "dumb" Sony phone, but hasn't used anything like it since, as far as I know.

    Does his phone work as a tracker for his business card in QoS? I know what you mean though: it’s hard to add a feature to a smartphone and make it seem like a new and sexy spy gadget rather than just an app. Also, as you say, a phone is the first thing any baddie would take away!
    I hope there’s a proper, inventive gadget in NTTD: Craig hasn’t really had one. Something that just explodes doesn’t quite grab the imagination.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited May 2021 Posts: 14,571
    The business card didn't have a chip or anything in it, that was just one prop maker's interpretation of it when he made a replica of it. Bond simply traced the phone that called his.

    There are heaps of gadgets in NTTD, but yes, most of them explode. :))
    You have a couple of gadget guns (my personal favourites), a classic tracking bug that looks like a little cylindrical tap filter with an aerial, and a few other electronic goodies - one that interests me in particular, as I don't know its function.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 16,382
    QBranch wrote: »
    The business card didn't have a chip or anything in it, that was just one prop maker's interpretation of it when he made a replica of it. Bond simply traced the phone that called his.

    He does track it on his phone though, doesn’t he?
    I prefer the card to be a gadget, I know tracing the call would make more sense but it’s less fun, and I don’t think it’s shown exactly how it happens onscreen.
  • QBranchQBranch Always have an escape plan. Mine is watching James Bond films.
    edited May 2021 Posts: 14,571
    He tracks Elvis' phone with his own phone, yes. I agree, having a chip in the card would be more fun.
  • Posts: 2,163
    TWINE is PB’s worst Bond film,

    DAD, for all its faults (and there are loads)... its never boring. I cant at least say I am not bored by it.

    TWINE, on the other hand, is boring. I am not sure I can say that about another Bond film.

    Sorry Pierce 😅
  • DragonpolDragonpol https://thebondologistblog.blogspot.com
    Posts: 18,270
    Mallory wrote: »
    Sorry Pierce 😅

    Don't worry. He's laughing all the way to the bank. ;)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    Mallory wrote: »
    TWINE is PB’s worst Bond film,

    DAD, for all its faults (and there are loads)... its never boring. I cant at least say I am not bored by it.

    TWINE, on the other hand, is boring. I am not sure I can say that about another Bond film.

    Sorry Pierce 😅

    Pretty much where I’m at.

    Of course, I rank TND second last behind DAD because I also find that dull.
  • Posts: 1,630
    TWINE and DAD both had their lows, unfortunately. One bit I've not heard people talk about on here was the ultra-light aircrafts attacking Bond and Elektra King. I think the producers and/or writers were interested in using some new technology, but the problem -- for me -- was that they move relatively slowly. They seemed to appear out of nowhere, and -- though they presented a danger, and the bad guys caused a snow drift to swamp Bond and King -- they moved oddly. Bond in the pipeline worked better, methinks. Bond in the submarine with Renard worked, though it fell a little flat. Bond vs. Sean Bean's villain at the end of GE on the satellite, for example, was more exciting. "Mr. Stamper, would you please kill him ?" in TND was funnier. Bond's final scene with Elektra was good, but not suspenseful. Had she some trick up her sleeve, something threatening Bond that he could not see, or having the entire building set to blow, even though killing herself but taking Bond and M, would have juiced up that scene. The once-per-year line at the end was a groaner. Dr. Jones' name was selected just for the sake of making that awful joke ? I also remember that the ending of DAD felt -- though there are plenty of differences -- similar to the ending of TWINE. Both could have been improved by honoring the early film's endings-on-the-water settings. (GF did not follow it, just as GF did not have a Bond with S. Trench scene at the beginning. TB and others returned to the ending on the water. I'll refrain from commenting further, and suggest that an entire thread could be devoted to the Endings of the Bond Films !)
  • MakeshiftPythonMakeshiftPython “Baja?!”
    Posts: 8,183
    An odd thing about the parahawk chase is that Bond never finds it suspicious that they all came after him and left Elektra alone when she was out in the open. I would have immediately suspected something was up, especially given how obstinate she was having him around, all of a sudden there’s an ambush.
  • MaxCasinoMaxCasino United States
    Posts: 4,629
    The best thing to come out of TWINE is it’s N64 game. Like GE, the game itself was better than the movie, which is rare, pun intended.
  • PrinceKamalKhanPrinceKamalKhan Monsoon Palace, Udaipur
    Posts: 3,262
    Mallory wrote: »
    TWINE is PB’s worst Bond film,

    DAD, for all its faults (and there are loads)... its never boring. I cant at least say I am not bored by it.

    TWINE, on the other hand, is boring. I am not sure I can say that about another Bond film.

    Sorry Pierce 😅

    +1. DAD is less soap-operaish than TWINE and in the first half features some Cold War-type espionage with North Korea standing in for the former Soviet Union.

    My controversial opinion:

    Despite my love for TLD and OP I do think that Lewis Gilbert generally did a better job with the second halves of his Bond films than John Glen did with the second halves of his Bond films.
  • Posts: 2,402
    Since62 wrote: »
    TWINE and DAD both had their lows, unfortunately. One bit I've not heard people talk about on here was the ultra-light aircrafts attacking Bond and Elektra King. I think the producers and/or writers were interested in using some new technology, but the problem -- for me -- was that they move relatively slowly. They seemed to appear out of nowhere, and -- though they presented a danger, and the bad guys caused a snow drift to swamp Bond and King -- they moved oddly. Bond in the pipeline worked better, methinks.

    I'm very fond of the late Michael Apted's work, and count myself as a TWINE fan - it was, after all, my very first Bond film - but his direction of action left quite a bit to be desired. My biggest gripe with TWINE is that a lot of the action "moves slowly." I mean even that fireball in the nuclear test site "chases" Bond at a snail's pace.
  • mtmmtm United Kingdom
    edited May 2021 Posts: 16,382
    Since62 wrote: »
    TWINE and DAD both had their lows, unfortunately. One bit I've not heard people talk about on here was the ultra-light aircrafts attacking Bond and Elektra King. I think the producers and/or writers were interested in using some new technology, but the problem -- for me -- was that they move relatively slowly. They seemed to appear out of nowhere, and -- though they presented a danger, and the bad guys caused a snow drift to swamp Bond and King -- they moved oddly. Bond in the pipeline worked better, methinks.

    I'm very fond of the late Michael Apted's work, and count myself as a TWINE fan - it was, after all, my very first Bond film - but his direction of action left quite a bit to be desired. My biggest gripe with TWINE is that a lot of the action "moves slowly." I mean even that fireball in the nuclear test site "chases" Bond at a snail's pace.

    Did he direct those parts though? I feel like the parahawk bit in particular would be Vic Armstrong.

    One of my favourite bits in it is the terrible editing which makes it look like Brosnan is watching his own stuntman!

    giphy.gif
  • Posts: 2,163
    Alexander Witt is a far better second unit director than Vic Armstrong. The action in the Craig era (apart from QoS which he didnt do, sadly), is far better than the PB era.
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